Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[JLHPROF]

 

Pt #1 - I think the other sects would disagree with your judgment that, using your rationale, they could only use the name of their sect (i.e. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc) because even though they differ on some, sometimes many, theological aspects amongst themselves, they share the commonality of believing in the Trinity, original sin and other theological doctrines. I would speculate that It is these beliefs plus their devotion to Christ, that makes them Christian.  If we limit the term Christian to only meaning "I see Christ as my savior" then yes, we're all Christians.  I don't think many in these other sects would limit their understanding of the label that much. So saying LDS are Christians because we say we are, or that we have as much right as anyone to that label, even though we disagree with almost every doctrine these sects believe is where the disagreement lies.

 

And I would have to disagree with this.  If worshiping Christ as our Savior is all that is required then we are as Christian as they are.  If doctrinal and dogmatic differences matter then they have no more right to be called Christian than anyone else and should be called by their doctrinal labels too.  The fact that they have a closer doctrinal relationship to each other than to the LDS belief doesn't give them any more claim on the name Christian.  The Catholics, Baptists, Methodists etc are all very different from each other and the LDS are no more different from any one of them.

Either we are ALL able to be called Christian (because we all believe in Christ as our Savior) or we should all only be known by the names of our specific systems of doctrinal beliefs (LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Non-Denom, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglican etc).

 

 

Pt #2 - This is also problematic at a core level because many/most other sects do not see LDS baptism as valid - just as LDS do not see the baptism of other sects as valid.  So saying that LDS are Christian because we've taken on His name through Baptism is, to a Catholic for instance, like saying "I performed this ritual that has no meaning/power/significance (however you want to say it) and that then makes me like you, a Christian.  Ah no, it doesn't.  It's not a matter of "...they don't seem to want to let us."  It's a matter of LDS making a claim to a label that doesn't adhere to traditional Christianity (mainly the Trinity) and saying/believing that is actually does.  Or, re framing the meaning of the label and saying "being a Christian used to mean X, but now it means Y."  It's also not a matter of LDS letting us use the term Christian as if LDS had some type of original claim to it because, in the understanding of the sects you refer to, you can't exercise that claim because you've created a new definition of the term. 

 

Trinitarian belief is NOT traditional Christianity but an invention 3-400 years after the fact.  The modern sects that want to have sole claim on the title Christian defined their beliefs about 350 years after Christ lived.  The LDS Church defined their beliefs about 1800 years after Christ lived.  So what?  Christians were first called Christians in Acts 11:26 probably 300 years before todays evangelical definition was accepted. 

 

Basically, the Trinitarians were the LDS of 325 AD, claiming the right to the term Christian and dismissing all other sects and scripture as non-Christian.  They don't see that they  did then exactly what the LDS Church does only 1300 years earlier (and without authority from God).  Just because in 325 AD a Roman Emperor ruled that you had to believe in the trinity to be called Christian doesn't make it so.

 

It seems to me that the term Christian doesn't belong to the group that set their beliefs earlier but to the group that most closely matches what Christ actually taught. 

 

 

Pt #3 - I would agree that I also would not want to hinder anyone in the LDS faith from seeking Christ.  But your statement that "...the LDS Church are the only ones with Christ's authority and the closest followers of his established religion" to me, under girds my point that in the mind of the LDS, you are the only true Christians and other sects are not, but you're OK with them using the label anyway.  For me, I don't get that unless you want to limit the label to meaning "we all follow Christ and see Him as our savior."  Again, I think the sects would agree with you on that point, but would disagree the term is restricted to that meaning.

 

Well, unfortunately there is no way round this point.  It IS part of LDS belief that we are the only Church established with authority direct from God and Christ and that follows the NT pattern of his Church.

 

If belief in Christ's doctrine and teachings are required to be Christian then the LDS are the only true Christians as they come closest.

If acceptance of Christ as our Savior is the only requirement to be Christian then the LDS AND other section are all equally Christians.

The only way that other sects would be considered Christian and the LDS are not is if you accept a 325 AD Roman limitation on what Christians are allowed to believe.  And why would you?

[JLHPROF]

The last statement, "I never knew you" demonstrates two points. One, these people were never believers. Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things. Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will otherwise they wouldn't have thought it a valid defense.

Gods will is to know him.

 

Ridiculous.  God doesn't only know those who believe in him.

1. God knows EVERY person, so it must mean recognizes as a follower.

2. The scriptures are clear that the only people that follow God are those that do his will.

 

What else does "knowing" God mean in this scripture?  Some esoteric nonsense not borne out in scripture I'm sure is what you will say.  What it actually means is recognizing a follower by their doing of his will.  That is how we will know each other - we will be like each other and both serve the Father.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The last statement, "I never knew you" demonstrates two points. One, these people were never believers. Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things. Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will otherwise they wouldn't have thought it a valid defense.

Gods will is to know him.

No no no no no no no. Christ says that they specifically did not do the will of the Father. That is why he never knew them. because the did not act, all they did do was believe, because they did many wonderful acts in His name. A non believer would do no acts in Christs name because he does not believe him.

 

Why would a non believer cast out demons in Christs name? Tell me that. Can you explain that? That is essentially what you are saying.

 

You even admit that "Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will", if that does not demonstrate that he is speaking of people that believe in who He (Christ) is but are not saved, then nothing will.

[Vance]

The last statement, "I never knew you" demonstrates two points. One, these people were never believers.

No, it doesn't. He doesn't say they never knew Him, but rather He never knew them. Your conclusion here is baseless. You are clearly not using this verse to inform your beliefs but rather using your beliefs to dictate what this verse must mean, but doesn't say, or even imply.

 

Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things.

Again, you are not letting this verse inform you beliefs but rather you are using your beliefs to dictate what this verse must mean, but doesn't say or even imply.

 

Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will otherwise they wouldn't have thought it a valid defense.

So, why would they do these things IF THE DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD?????????

 

Gods will is to know him.

It is his will for us to obey His commandments. That is why He gives them to us. It is by obeying His commandments and serving Him that we get to know Him.

You are basically saying that it doesn't mean what it says ONLY because you don't believe it.

Your whole argument here is just plain asinine and SILLY!!!

Edited September 18, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

LOL!!!!

Yes, you are wasting my time with your circular logic.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So, those that claim to be Christians, and who go about preaching Christ, and prophesying Christ, and casting out demons using the name of Christ don't get to heaven. Only those that DO God's will (you know, His commandments do reflect His will).

So, belief and confession are not enough (Necessary but not sufficient). Obedience is required.

Keeping the commandments isn't mentioned in this passage.

[danielwoods]

No no no no no no no. Christ says that they specifically did not do the will of the Father. That is why he never knew them. because the did not act, all they did do was believe, because they did many wonderful acts in His name. A non believer would do no acts in Christs name because he does not believe him.

Why would a non believer cast out demons in Christs name? Tell me that. Can you explain that? That is essentially what you are saying.

You even admit that "Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will", if that does not demonstrate that he is speaking of people that believe in who He (Christ) is but are not saved, then nothing will.

In fact it doesn't say they believed in him, ever.

[Vance]

Keeping the commandments isn't mentioned in this passage.

Why does God give commandments if He doesn't want us to obey them?

[Vance]

Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things.

Obviously a falsehood.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[JLHPROF]

It's amazing how long the back and forth on faith vs. works could continue.  (Especially since it's both, not either one).

 

But I think the overwhelming scripture volume is on the side of works.  If we were to post a list of every NT scripture we think promotes salvation by faith alone and a list of every NT scripture we think requires some kind of work or action on our part I think it would be a landslide in favor of us actually having to do something more than "believe".

 

Maybe next time I have a few hours to kill I might try and make those lists...

[Vance]

If we were to post a list of every NT scripture we think promotes salvation by faith alone

There are none. The only verse in scripture that has both "faith" and "alone" is this one.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In fact it doesn't say they believed in him, ever.

Sigh, you didn't even attempt to address what I asked you. Here is again.

 

Why would a non believer cast out demons in Christs name? Tell me that. Can you explain that?

 

 

That is essentially what you are saying.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Keeping the commandments isn't mentioned in this passage.

What the heck does "Do the will of the Father" mean? If it does not mean keep the commandments?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

dupe.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There are none. The only verse in scripture that has both "faith" and "alone" is this one.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"Alone", is always added by our evangelical friends.

[JLHPROF]

There are none. The only verse in scripture that has both "faith" and "alone" is this one.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

"Alone", is always added by our evangelical friends.

 

I realize that.  I meant the verses that they use that say we are saved by faith.  I am betting that there are only a couple (all by Paul) that say we are saved by faith, not works.  I am betting that there are a huge amount of verses that state we are saved by doing God's will, keeping commandments, etc etc.

The idea of taking the 1 or 2 verses that say we are justified by faith and not works and ignoring the rest of the entire NT requiring commandment keeping would make a fascinating contrast.  Like I said, if I ever have a couple of hours.

[halconero]

The last statement, "I never knew you" demonstrates two points. One, these people were never believers. Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things. Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will otherwise they wouldn't have thought it a valid defense.

Gods will is to know him.

Do you know what "knowing" means in a Greco-Roman or Hebrew context?

[JLHPROF]

One additional thought:

 

The idea that we are justified or saved by our faith always seems to break down into a faith vs works.  Maybe what we need to do is look at the scriptural definitions of faith.

 

For example: Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

So all God wants is for us to have faith according to the evangelicals.

If faith is evidence of things not seen what evidence of the unseen is God going to be looking for.

He's going to be looking for evidence of my faith.  My faith cannot be seen, but the evidence can.  Therefore James said: ^"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

 

God will not see your faith (belief) alone, he will only see the evidence of your faith.

 

1. Is my declaring "I Believe" evidence of my unseen faith?

2. Is my showing love to my neighbor evidence of my unseen faith?

3. Is my keeping commandments evidence of my unseen faith?

4. Is Baptism evidence of my unseen faith?
 

It's not faith vs works.  It's faith shown by works.  Belief alone is NOT faith because there is NO evidence of the unseen.  Show me your faith.   So says God and so says James.

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

I would agree with you that Christian salvation and LDS exaltation are completely different--but this is just more evidence that our beliefs are completely different.  I would like to comment on your statement stating that Christian salvation "more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things."  But this is certainly not true and here is why.  Christian salvation a believer lives eternally with God.  In the lower two LDS kingdoms people are eternally separated from God the Father.  Again completely opposite beliefs

 

 

Flyonthewall

I did not say completely different, but mis-aligned. As I said, Your belief is simplistic, not as nuanced as ours.

Your belief is encompassed in ours.

In our belief, the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory, and all Glory comes from God.

No they are completely different.  You say "the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory" yet those in the two lower kingdoms are eternally separated from God the Father.  

[Canadaigua]

You do know that Jesus taught,

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Why is it that some continue to misunderstand our position on perfection.  It is the same position as the early saints.

 

So would you say that perfect obedience to the commandments is the requirement for exaltation?

[Canadaigua]

That is the common LIE taught by anti-Mormons.

James 2:¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

Where in this verse does it say that works contribute for salvation?

[Flyonthewall]

It's interesting that you see a separation of believers reflected in these passages. Jesus calls them evil doers. And specifically says, "I never knew you!" Notice the crux of the issue is relationship. So they certainly aren't believers.

Then tell me, who is it that prophecies, drives out devils, and does many wondrous works in His name? Unbelievers? No. They are claiming to be believers because they did all those things in His name.

I am starting to understand that either you really don't know what "believers" are, or you just make it up as you go along.

 

The question then is if Heaven is based on Knowing him (eternal life is knowing him), and here he said "I never knew you" (to evil doers) then how do you see the doctrine of separate kindoms in heaven reflected in this passage, when these are evil people who aren't even going to heaven (according to the NT)?

I responded to this: "Where do you see it reflected in the NT? (I'm specifically asking about the concept that believers won't be in direct fellowship with God 100% of the time.)".

There are scriptures that talk about being in the 3rd heaven, and divisions of glory - sun, moon, and stars, in my Father's house are many mansions - that reflect multiple kingdoms/divisions.

I see the crux of the chapter to be about works... not the works of the Mosaic law but our actions in following the commandments and doing the will of the Father.

[Flyonthewall]

No they are completely different.  You say "the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory" yet those in the two lower kingdoms are eternally separated from God the Father.  

They are in His Glory, not the fullness, but in His glory.

Let me ask you, in your language/belief, what does "eternally separated from God the Father" mean?

[danielwoods]

Ridiculous.  God doesn't only know those who believe in him.

1. God knows EVERY person, so it must mean recognizes as a follower.

2. The scriptures are clear that the only people that follow God are those that do his will.

 

What else does "knowing" God mean in this scripture?  Some esoteric nonsense not borne out in scripture I'm sure is what you will say.  What it actually means is recognizing a follower by their doing of his will.  That is how we will know each other - we will be like each other and both serve the Father.

 

1) When Jesus says, "I never knew you..." of course he's referring recognizing a follower or believer. Emphasis is on relationship connection with that person.

To "know" the author is different than "knowing" about the book. 

 

2) And the NT is clear that God's will is to know him personally. 

 

John 17:³ Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

Your point is that doing God's will is something akin to keeping his commandments. But, Paul explained how that doesn't save us. 

 

Galatians 3:5 "does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? ⁶ So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

He even points out how keeping the law doesn't even bring about righteousness

 

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh..."

Galatians 3:¹¹ Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith."

Colossians 2:²² These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. ²³ Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

One final point. If simply following God's commands was "God's Will", then why is it that these people in Matt. 7 were called evil doers? They clearly were doing the works you seem to be promoting as necessary?

Edited September 19, 2014 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

No no no no no no no. Christ says that they specifically did not do the will of the Father. That is why he never knew them. because the did not act, all they did do was believe, because they did many wonderful acts in His name. A non believer would do no acts in Christs name because he does not believe him.

 

Why would a non believer cast out demons in Christs name? Tell me that. Can you explain that? That is essentially what you are saying.

 

You even admit that "Clearly these people did things they thought were Gods will", if that does not demonstrate that he is speaking of people that believe in who He (Christ) is but are not saved, then nothing will.

 

Actually it doesn't mention what they believed. Rather than Jesus never knew them. Clear indication they weren't believers in Jesus. 

 

Why would a non-beleiver cast out demons? Because the Name of Jesus has power, and it works. Haven't you heard about Seven sons of Sceva, who weren't believers but were casting out demons? Or the guy who wanted to pay Peter for the power he possessed? 

 

The difference between a believer and an non-believer is who they live for. Believers live for Christ, non-believers live for themselves. It doesn't matter what they "do" on the outside to justify themselves, these evil-doers are not living for Christ. They only do things for themselves. Just like Jesus said about the Pharisees, who pray loudly and have received their reward already. So, while they may claim to be believers they are not truly, and only they and Christ know that. They might be leaders of large churches, or serve and give money, etc. etc... It all doesn't matter if they are simply living for themselves.