LDS doctrine of God

[Sky]

I just read this and wondered if anybody had seen it:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/problems-with-mormonism-the-doctrine-of-god/

The author may have gotten some things right, but unfortunately I'm also afraid that he is perpetuating some old misconceptions and divisions...  Mainly, that Mormonism is not compatible with Christianity, the claim that Mormonism is a polytheistic faith, and the concept of a "grandfather God."

Yes, I'm aware that Lorenzo Snow once said "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."  I'm also aware of Joseph Smith's "King Follet discourse."  

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  I'm leery of a Lutheran pastor telling me what my Church's doctrine is, or what I believe.         

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

This is the perfect thread to ask a question about what it means to be exalted. Joseph Smith said "Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

What does it mean to go from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation? Does that mean we go even higher than the Celestial Kingdom? Or does that just mean God obtains higher exaltations when his children are exalted and give kingdoms to God and it adds to his exaltation, and will be the same with us and our spiritual children. Meaning we will always be progressing in glory forever. Is that what it meant?

[VideoGameJunkie]

32 minutes ago, Sky said:

I just read this and wondered if anybody had seen it:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/problems-with-mormonism-the-doctrine-of-god/

The author may have gotten some things right, but unfortunately I'm also afraid that he is perpetuating some old misconceptions and divisions...  Mainly, that Mormonism is not compatible with Christianity, the claim that Mormonism is a polytheistic faith, and the concept of a "grandfather God."

Yes, I'm aware that Lorenzo Snow once said "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."  I'm also aware of Joseph Smith's "King Follet discourse."  

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  I'm leery of a Lutheran pastor telling me what my Church's doctrine is, or what I believe.         

 

Well we can become what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are now, but they will be progressing in eternal glory forever so they'll always be at least one step ahead of us.

[Damien the Leper]

It'll be fascinating to see if the LDS church ever rejects monolatry and henotheism.

[Storm Rider]

5 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

It'll be fascinating to see if the LDS church ever rejects monolatry and henotheism.

I have often wondered the same thing about orthodox Christianity.  The doctrine of the Trinity is anything but monotheism, but then I am a Mormon and know about as much as Lutheran pastor does.

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

It'll be fascinating to see if the LDS church ever rejects monolatry and henotheism.

If the LDS pantheon is God the Father, his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost then henotheism is appropriate, but then all of Christianity is merits the same appellation.  If the LDS are Monolatrists then who isn't in Christianity?

[Damien the Leper]

Arianism (in any form) and Trinitarianism are awkward.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Sky said:

I just read this and wondered if anybody had seen it:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/problems-with-mormonism-the-doctrine-of-god/

The author may have gotten some things right, but unfortunately I'm also afraid that he is perpetuating some old misconceptions and divisions...  Mainly, that Mormonism is not compatible with Christianity, the claim that Mormonism is a polytheistic faith, and the concept of a "grandfather God."

Yes, I'm aware that Lorenzo Snow once said "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."  I'm also aware of Joseph Smith's "King Follet discourse."  

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  I'm leery of a Lutheran pastor telling me what my Church's doctrine is, or what I believe.         

 

What do you then suppose Snow meant, and the meaning of the King Follet discourse then?  Have you read that discourse?

We will never be "equal" with Heavenly Father because he has eternities of perfection and "kingdoms without number" and we might have- if we are lucky- one kingdom and our family.  Yet it is said that the type of life - "eternal life" we may be granted- IF we prove worthy is the KIND of life God has.

Relative to him we will always be as children- whereas to day we are as embryos.  But we will be the kind of being he is.

[Damien the Leper]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If the LDS pantheon is God the Father, his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost then henotheism is appropriate, but then all of Christianity is merits the same appellation.  If the LDS are Monolatrists then who isn't in Christianity?

I vote for Docetism. So much better.

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I vote for Docetism. So much better.

That particular heresy never captured my attention to any degree.  Too much of the mystical to have meaning I guess. 

[snowflake]

2 hours ago, Sky said:

I just read this and wondered if anybody had seen it:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/problems-with-mormonism-the-doctrine-of-god/

The author may have gotten some things right, but unfortunately I'm also afraid that he is perpetuating some old misconceptions and divisions...  Mainly, that Mormonism is not compatible with Christianity, the claim that Mormonism is a polytheistic faith, and the concept of a "grandfather God."

Yes, I'm aware that Lorenzo Snow once said "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."  I'm also aware of Joseph Smith's "King Follet discourse."  

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  I'm leery of a Lutheran pastor telling me what my Church's doctrine is, or what I believe.         

 

Great article, thank you so much for posting this.  So often in discussion with my LDS friends I explain that the god of Mormonism is completely different that the God of the Bible.  This article points out several distinct reasons but I think the most unique difference is that the God of the Bible is outside of time, space and matter.....he created all of these.  The god of Mormonism is just one of an endless line of gods progressing back eternally.  This line of reasoning is not supported by the Bible or the BOM.

[Sky]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What do you then suppose Snow meant, and the meaning of the King Follet discourse then?  Have you read that discourse?

We will never be "equal" with Heavenly Father because he has eternities of perfection and "kingdoms without number" and we might have- if we are lucky- one kingdom and our family.  Yet it is said that the type of life - "eternal life" we may be granted- IF we prove worthy is the KIND of life God has.

Relative to him we will always be as children- whereas to day we are as embryos.  But we will be the kind of being he is.

D&C 132:19 seems to indicate that we can inherit more than one kingdom:  

Quote

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.  

Honestly though, I don't think I know the full meaning of either this scripture, Snow's quote, or the King Follet discourse.  I just know there are things in our doctrine that say that humans can become like God.  I don't see it being widely emphasized today in the contemporary LDS Church. Of course, I disagree with the author's conclusions that Mormonism is not a Christian faith.

Also, this scripture in Genesis 1:27 seems to undermine the author's conclusion that God and humans are not of the same species:

Quote

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Sky said:

D&C 132:19 seems to indicate that we can inherit more than one kingdom:  

Honestly though, I don't think I know the full meaning of either this scripture, Snow's quote, or the King Follet discourse.  I just know there are things in our doctrine that say that humans can become like God.  I don't see it being widely emphasized today in the contemporary LDS Church. Of course, I disagree with the author's conclusions that Mormonism is not a Christian faith.

Also, this scripture in Genesis 1:27 seems to undermine the author's conclusion that God and humans are not of the same species:

 

Agreed.

The doctrine is becoming more and more important.  The more the world moves toward humanism- toward the idea that humanity should strive to be the best "humans" they can be- I think that seeing Heavenly Father as an Ideal Human upon whom we should model ourselves will become more and more important.

The idea that God is three persons in one "immaterial substance" makes no sense, but the idea that the God head is essentially a "Human" family unified in purpose as any perfected human family would be makes a LOT of sense.

I think as the world moves forward, this belief system could indeed become the "stone cut without hands" which will fill the earth, as humanism triumphs- but a newer Theistic Humanism.

Fundamentalist "Christianity" is becoming an untenable theology, whereas I think our materialism (Spirit is matter but more refined) and our theistic humanism could be the wave of the future opposed only by atheism, which will be the predominant faith position.  I think Nietzsche's idea that "god is dead" may indeed apply to the creedal sectarian god he opposed but not our Living Heavenly Father.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

It'll be fascinating to see if the LDS church ever rejects monolatry and henotheism.

Never will happen.  The trend is more and more to emphasize community in all religions, reflecting democratic ideals over monarchies.  I know you guys didn't get that memo yet though.

Social Trinity- RAH!  I know you like big words so here's one!  Perichoresis!  YAY!  The sacred dance!

Do you dance in church!

Edited May 9, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Great article, thank you so much for posting this.  So often in discussion with my LDS friends I explain that the god of Mormonism is completely different that the God of the Bible.  This article points out several distinct reasons but I think the most unique difference is that the God of the Bible is outside of time, space and matter.....he created all of these.  The god of Mormonism is just one of an endless line of gods progressing back eternally.  This line of reasoning is not supported by the Bible or the BOM.

No. the Mormon God is exactly like the God of the bible

He is totally NOT like some consubstantial immaterial cloud based on pagan Greek Philosophy!  So there!

Edited May 9, 2016 by mfbukowski

[VideoGameJunkie]

Does anyone know what it means to go from grace to grace, from exaltation, to exaltation to become like God? What was Joseph Smith talking about?

[hope_for_things]

I remember reading that a possible source for the Lorenzo Snow couplet is from common language found on gravestones.  

Quote

Stop by here my friends as you pass by,
As you are now so once was I.
As I am now, so you must be.
Prepare for death and follow me.

http://juvenileinstructor.org/eram-quod-es/

 

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, Sky said:

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  I'm leery of a Lutheran pastor telling me what my Church's doctrine is, or what I believe.         

I'm reading this with a regret that Mormonism leaves it's solid doctrines behind. This is exactly what I've been taught when I was baptized in 1976. Subsequently in my active years (early 80's) I've been taught this, in fact I still have the priesthood manuals. This unique doctrines endeared me to church, now I am saddened to see Church parts with these core doctrines.

[Sky]

11 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'm reading this with a regret that Mormonism leaves it's solid doctrines behind. This is exactly what I've been taught when I was baptized in 1976. Subsequently in my active years (early 80's) I've been taught this, in fact I still have the priesthood manuals. This unique doctrines endeared me to church, now I am saddened to see Church parts with these core doctrines.

It hasn't gone away completely.  It just never seemed to be greatly emphasized as I grew up, or not emphasized in the same way that our critics like to portray it.  

It's still taught, though.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng#5-36787_000_05

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

:I'm reading this with a regret that Mormonism leaves it's solid doctrines behind. This is exactly what I've been taught when I was baptized in 1976. Subsequently in my active years (early 80's) I've been taught this, in fact I still have the priesthood manuals. This unique doctrines endeared me to church, now I am saddened to see Church parts with these core doctrines.

I think it got deemphasized during Gordon B Hinckley's Presidency, but I certainly believe those doctrines precisely. I believe that is exactly what Isa 9:6, and 65 teach. That Christ is Heavenly Father's inheritor and will be called the Father - essentially inheriting the office of the Father. If Jesus did it, then it follows so can we. This is the very truth hated by Satan which was obscurred by the creeds of the early Roman Church.

29 minutes ago, Sky said:

It hasn't gone away completely.  It just never seemed to be greatly emphasized as I grew up, or not emphasized in the same way that our critics like to portray it.  

It's still taught, though.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-5-the-grand-destiny-of-the-faithful?lang=eng#5-36787_000_05

Yes, it is still there, but much more of subdued topic I think. It seems the church has not fully understood these principles so attempts at making doctrine may have wisely been delayed. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by RevTestament

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

That particular heresy never captured my attention to any degree.  Too much of the mystical to have meaning I guess. 

I love the Gospels of Peter and Truth. The are strangely unique.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What do you then suppose Snow meant, and the meaning of the King Follet discourse then?  Have you read that discourse?

We will never be "equal" with Heavenly Father because he has eternities of perfection and "kingdoms without number" and we might have- if we are lucky- one kingdom and our family.  Yet it is said that the type of life - "eternal life" we may be granted- IF we prove worthy is the KIND of life God has.

Relative to him we will always be as children- whereas to day we are as embryos.  But we will be the kind of being he is.

I humbly disagree with you here MFB.

Although Christ called the Father the only true God/El that is in deference to His being the Most High El of the Elohim. But I believe per Isa 9:6, 65 Christ will inherit the mountains of the Father and the title of the Father, and be His equal - although perhaps forever indebted to Him. Scripturally, in the regeneration He will be the Father, and presumably the Most High El. If He can do that why can't we? I see "eternal lives" differently than you perhaps.

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

That particular heresy never captured my attention to any degree.  Too much of the mystical to have meaning I guess. 

I love the Gospels of Peter and Truth. They are strangely unique.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Valentinus

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Great article, thank you so much for posting this.  So often in discussion with my LDS friends I explain that the god of Mormonism is completely different that the God of the Bible.  This article points out several distinct reasons but I think the most unique difference is that the God of the Bible is outside of time, space and matter.....he created all of these.  The god of Mormonism is just one of an endless line of gods progressing back eternally.  This line of reasoning is not supported by the Bible or the BOM.

how little do you see...

In the Bible God always deals with man within the concept of time. Never does He say or indicate He is "outside of time, space and matter." He never says He created any of these. Perhaps you need to refer back to Gen  1:2 which says he formed the earth by moving His Spirit across the waters, which it doesn't say He formed. Your idea of the "God of the Bible" is completely an interpretation taught to you by your church.

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Well we can become what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are now, but they will be progressing in eternal glory forever so they'll always be at least one step ahead of us.

Scripture please? Where does the Father progress to? How do you progress higher than omnipotence?