The 'light Of Christ' And The Three Omnis

[Dando]

It's my understanding that LDS theology rejects the classic Christian understanding that Heavenly Father is Omniscient (all knowing at all times), Omnipresent (simultaneously everywhere in all times) and Omnipowerful (at all times all powerful). 

 

Heavenly Father is not omniscient because he is still growing in knowledge and continues to progress.

Heavenly Father is not omnipresent because he has a physical body which can only be in one place at a time.

Heavenly Father is not omnipowerful because he must submit to the laws of the Priesthood and did not always have whatever power he has now.

 

My experience has been that LDS will affirm these attributes of Heavenly Father while in initilal discussion with orthodox Christians in order to pave the way to the doctrinal meat that teaches that Heavenly Father merely appears to hold these attributes but they in fact are not accurate descriptions of Him given the plan of salvation that stretches back before he was a god. Feel free to correct me in my understanding, I'm not posing this description as an authority on Mormon doctrine only as a set up for a different question.

 

I'm interested in the LDS concept of the "Light of Christ". Would you say any of the "omnis" apply to the Light of Christ?

 

Thanks!

[pogi]

I'm interested in the LDS concept of the "Light of Christ". Would you say any of the "omnis" apply to the Light of Christ?

 

Thanks!

 

I would say that all of them apply to the light of Christ.  God's power is the light of Christ, God's knowledge is the light of Christ (as is our knowledge), God's omnipresence is the light of Christ.  I am just one Mormon however, others may disagree. 

 

Heavenly Father is not omniscient because he is still growing in knowledge and continues to progress.

 

 

I don't think it is LDS doctrine that God's knowledge is still growing.  He knows all that can be known.  Eternal progression is often interpreted as continuance of offspring. 

[Rob Osborn]

The Light of Christ is not well understood in LDS doctrine as to what it is and what it is not. We do know that each person born into mortality isgiven the Light of Christ. Beyond that it is all speculation.

BTW, dealing with your three omni's, LDS doctrine is again unclear on how it applies. This is because there is such a wide and varried use of those terms. Even in mainstream Christianity those three attributes are not well understood and debated.

[pogi]

The Light of Christ is not well understood in LDS doctrine as to what it is and what it is not. We do know that each person born into mortality isgiven the Light of Christ. Beyond that it is all speculation.

 

Read D&C 88 and 93.  We know way more about it then you let on. 

[CV75]

It's my understanding that LDS theology rejects the classic Christian understanding that Heavenly Father is Omniscient (all knowing at all times), Omnipresent (simultaneously everywhere in all times) and Omnipowerful (at all times all powerful). 

 

Heavenly Father is not omniscient because he is still growing in knowledge and continues to progress.

Heavenly Father is not omnipresent because he has a physical body which can only be in one place at a time.

Heavenly Father is not omnipowerful because he must submit to the laws of the Priesthood and did not always have whatever power he has now.

 

My experience has been that LDS will affirm these attributes of Heavenly Father while in initilal discussion with orthodox Christians in order to pave the way to the doctrinal meat that teaches that Heavenly Father merely appears to hold these attributes but they in fact are not accurate descriptions of Him given the plan of salvation that stretches back before he was a god. Feel free to correct me in my understanding, I'm not posing this description as an authority on Mormon doctrine only as a set up for a different question.

 

I'm interested in the LDS concept of the "Light of Christ". Would you say any of the "omnis" apply to the Light of Christ?

 

Thanks!

I would that in this case “reject the classic” means that we accept that He is all of those things from certain perspectives, and when we do an understanding of His qualities lead us by and by to absolute truth (“vincit omnia veritas?”). So yes, we affirm them for what we believe the truth draws them out as being.

There is another thread where I almost posted the following opinion, since everything in our religion is an appendage to the prime testimony*. I think the prime testimony of what happened in this world for this world’s coming to the truth (the fundamental principles). This might mean to some that Christ is the truth, and also that He is an appendage to the truth—both are correct from different vital perspectives and seem to be supported by scripture.

* “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

The varying cascades of appendages can be seen in D&C 93, 88 and 84: “Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made” and “…whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” Thus He is “The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world…” So for example, light is an appendage to truth; the Spirit of Jesus Christ is an appendage to the light; the truth proves to be an appendage to the Spirit of Truth (or Jesus Christ)—once that prime testimony has been called upon and effectuated. There are other ways to swapping these perspectives around, of course. And of course any seeming contradiction is what the Atonement (that prime testimony) is all about!

[The Nehor]

I am LDS and believe God possesses all three of those omni- attributes.

[bluebell]

LDS doctrine is that God is all of the omnis.

Individual members sometimes have different ideas as to what that means exactly (and LDS understanding of what each term means is probably not the exact same as that of other Christian denominations) but mormon theology is that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all present.

[Rob Osborn]

Read D&C 88 and 93.  We know way more about it then you let on.

Divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. It is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth (D&C 88:6–13). It also helps people understand gospel truths and helps to put them on the gospel path that leads to salvation (John 3:19–21; 12:46; Alma 26:15; 32:35; D&C 93:28–29, 31–32, 40, 42).

The light of Christ should not be confused with the Holy Ghost. The light of Christ is not a person. It is an influence that comes from God and prepares a person to receive the Holy Ghost. It is an influence for good in the lives of all people (John 1:9; D&C 84:46–47).

One manifestation of the light of Christ is conscience, which helps a person choose between right and wrong (Moro. 7:16). As people learn more about the gospel, their consciences become more sensitive (Moro. 7:12–19). People who hearken to the light of Christ are led to the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 84:46–48).

[Rob Osborn]

How does one define that God is all powerful? Can he create a rock heavier than he can lift? Powerful in what sense?

How does one define "all knowing"? Does He have an infinite amount of knowledge of every future event? Or does it only apply to a knowledge of all possibilities?

And what exactly does it mean to be "all present"? Is He inside of the devil? What about his presence- does it penetrate hell?

[Ahab]

How does one define that God is all powerful? Can he create a rock heavier than he can lift? Powerful in what sense?

When I started learning about electricity one of the first things I learned is the definition of power, which is the ability to do work. It works well for this too. God has the ability to do all kinds of work, whether or not it involves using and even making tools.

How does one define "all knowing"? Does He have an infinite amount of knowledge of every future event? Or does it only apply to a knowledge of all possibilities?

He knows everything about everything there is to know now, and if/when something or someone else comes into being he will know everything about that too.

And what exactly does it mean to be "all present"? Is He inside of the devil? What about his presence- does it penetrate hell?

All present and accounted for? Aye. Attention!

[pogi]

When I first read the title of this thread I was thinking, "3 Omnis?"  I'm pretty sure there is only one book of Omni, and I don't remember it talking about the light of Christ. Ha, ha.

[JLHPROF]

I am LDS and believe God possesses all three of those omni- attributes.

 

I'm LDS and don't believe God possesses ANY of those three omni-attributes.

 

 

Heavenly Father is not omniscient because he is still growing in knowledge and continues to progress.

- Elder McConkie would disagree with the knowledge part, President Young would agree with you.  I'm with Pres. Young on this one.  I believe God is still learning and progressing and always will be.

 

Heavenly Father is not omnipresent because he has a physical body which can only be in one place at a time.

- Heavenly Father's body can only be in one place.  There is nothing preventing his mind/spirit/vision and other sense from seeing everything.  All things are before the Lord, past, present and future.  Is that omnipresent enough?

 

Heavenly Father is not omnipowerful because he must submit to the laws of the Priesthood and did not always have whatever power he has now.

- Heavenly Father is indeed subject to eternal law (else he would cease to be God) and did indeed progress to become the God he is today.  At least that's what was taught by Joseph and Brigham and I agree with them.  But does that truly limit his power or is his obedience to law the source of his power?  In being obedient to every law, then he would have every power.

Edited December 31, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Rob Osborn]

I'm LDS and don't believe God possesses ANY of those three omni-attributes.

Heavenly Father is not omniscient because he is still growing in knowledge and continues to progress. - Elder McConkie would disagree with the knowledge part, President Young would agree with you. I'm with Pres. Young on this one. I believe God is still learning and progressing and always will be.

Heavenly Father is not omnipresent because he has a physical body which can only be in one place at a time. - Heavenly Father's body can only be in one place. There is nothing preventing his mind/spirit/vision and other sense from seeing everything. All things are before the Lord, past, present and future. Is that omnipresent enough?

Heavenly Father is not omnipowerful because he must submit to the laws of the Priesthood and did not always have whatever power he has now. - Heavenly Father is indeed subject to eternal law (else he would cease to be God) and did indeed progress to become the God he is today. At least that's what was taught by Joseph and Brigham and I agree with them. But does that truly limit his power or is his obedience to law the source of his power? In being obedient to every law, then he would have every power.

This too is how I feel. It wouldnt make sense if God were everywhere at once, nor would it make sense if God knew everything possible to know- that would mean he has an infinite amount of skills he has perfected and that is impossible. Neither would it make sense if God was so powerful that he was outside of laws.

[The Nehor]

This too is how I feel. It wouldnt make sense if God were everywhere at once, nor would it make sense if God knew everything possible to know- that would mean he has an infinite amount of skills he has perfected and that is impossible. Neither would it make sense if God was so powerful that he was outside of laws.

So because you cannot see how it is possible it must be impossible. The power of God is limited to what you can conceive of? And I thought I was arrogant.

[Calm]

So because you cannot see how it is possible it must be impossible. The power of God is limited to what you can conceive of? And I thought I was arrogant.

Don't worry, you still are.

[Ahab]

I'm LDS and don't believe God possesses ANY of those three omni-attributes.

Yes you do, you just don't realize it, yet.

And the answer to your omnipresent question is yes.

[Ahab]

This too is how I feel. It wouldnt make sense if God were everywhere at once

Maybe it would do you some good to try to imagine someplace God could never be in. Omnipresent doesn't mean he has no choice but to be everywhere at the same time, just as omnipotent doesn't mean he has no choice but to do everything he can do at the same time.

nor would it make sense if God knew everything possible to know- that would mean he has an infinite amount of skills he has perfected and that is impossible.

First of all no it would't mean that. All knowing has a limit of everything, and infinite means there is no limit. And with eternity you too may learn everything there is to know as long as you have someone to teach you.

Neither would it make sense if God was so powerful that he was outside of laws.

He doesn't have to be a law breaker to do something, as long as he is able to do something. He can still have the power to do something illegal while choosing not to do it.

[Vance]

. . .   but they in fact are not accurate descriptions of Him given the plan of salvation that stretches back before he was a god.

???????????????

 

My understanding is that there was NEVER a time when He wasn't "a god".  Was there ever a time when Christ was not "a god"?  I think NOT!!!

[Ahab]

???????????????

My understanding is that there was NEVER a time when He wasn't "a god". Was there ever a time when Christ was not "a god"? I think NOT!!!

Good catch. Even some members of the Church think godhood is a status we have to attain, not realizing we have already become the same kind of being God is when we are born to him as his spirit children.

[The Nehor]

Don't worry, you still are.

Good, I was having an identity crisis.

[Calm]

If it ever happens again, I will be happy to reassure then as well.

[JLHPROF]

Good catch. Even some members of the Church think godhood is a status we have to attain, not realizing we have already become the same kind of being God is when we are born to him as his spirit children.

 

We may be part of the race of the Gods, but we still have a way to go to achieve our membership in the Eloheim (the council of the Gods) and become part of a Godhead.

[Rob Osborn]

So because you cannot see how it is possible it must be impossible. The power of God is limited to what you can conceive of? And I thought I was arrogant.

Has nothing to do with arrogance. It has to do with just applying some logic and principle. God has power over his creations and within his jurisdiction- whatever that may be. But "power" itself can cover so many things. Can God make everything disappear and cease to exist? No, he cant. Lets go the other way- can God make an infinite amount of matter appear out of nothing? No, he cant do that either. Can God make the devil be good? No, he cant do that either. So, when we talk "power" we are speaking of some other thing. God has the power to do all things "within" his power, not that he can do "anything".

[The Nehor]

Has nothing to do with arrogance. It has to do with just applying some logic and principle. God has power over his creations and within his jurisdiction- whatever that may be. But "power" itself can cover so many things. Can God make everything disappear and cease to exist? No, he cant. Lets go the other way- can God make an infinite amount of matter appear out of nothing? No, he cant do that either. Can God make the devil be good? No, he cant do that either. So, when we talk "power" we are speaking of some other thing. God has the power to do all things "within" his power, not that he can do "anything".

I think you have the concepts of "can not" and "will not" confused. God gave us agency. Can he take it back? I have no idea. Will he? No.

[Ahab]

Has nothing to do with arrogance. It has to do with just applying some logic and principle. God has power over his creations and within his jurisdiction- whatever that may be. But "power" itself can cover so many things. Can God make everything disappear and cease to exist? No, he cant. Lets go the other way- can God make an infinite amount of matter appear out of nothing? No, he cant do that either. Can God make the devil be good? No, he cant do that either. So, when we talk "power" we are speaking of some other thing. God has the power to do all things "within" his power, not that he can do "anything".

Good points, but there is a logical way to think of all God can do. I think in terms of God being able to do all that can be done, so that if he can't do it, nobody can. So in that sense, God can do all things, whether with or without tools or by having someone or something else do it for him. Kinda like how I can find a way to breed puppies.