Lds Undermining Calls To Acceptance As Christian

Joshua Valentine · August 25, 2015

[i saw the lower case LDS too late, and couldn't find a way to edit it. I apologize for the error. Please let me know if there is a way to edit topic titles. Thanks!]

This topic is not about whether or not Mormons are Christians. It is not about whether Mormonism is a Christian religion.

It is about whether and how the LDS leadership undermines its own position, and that of the membership - that other Christian groups should recognize it, them, as Christians - when it refuses to recognize other Mormon groups as Mormons.

Following are statements made by the LDS Church:

1) A recent news story referred to fugitive Warren Jeffs as a “fundamentalist Mormon” and “leader of a polygamist breakaway Mormon sect.”

Polygamist groups in Utah, Arizona or Texas have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To refer to them as “Mormon” is inaccurate.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/fundamentalist-mormons

2) Fact:

There is no such thing as a "fundamentalist" Mormon. Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church discontinued polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated. Polygamist groups in Utah, other parts of the American West and elsewhere have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/commentary/fundamentalist-mormons

3) Recent news reports regarding various issues related to the practice of polygamy, especially focusing on groups in Southern Utah, Arizona and Texas, have used terms such as "fundamentalist Mormons," "Mormon sect" and "polygamous Mormons" to refer to those who practice polygamy.

There is no such thing as a "polygamous" Mormon. Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church discontinued polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated. Polygamist groups in Utah, Arizona or Texas have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/polygamous-mormons

4) "...it is estimated that approximately 30,000 Mormons live in polygamous households in Utah."

Fact:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued the practice of polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated. Groups that practice polygamy have nothing to do whatsoever with the Church and should not be referred to as Mormons.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/30-000-mormon-polygamists

5) There is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.” It is a contradiction to use the two words together.

-President Gordon B. Hinckley

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/what-are-people-asking-about-us?lang=eng

All of these official statements made by the LDS Church deny the use of “Mormon” when referring to polygamous or fundamentalist groups. How is this to be justified when the LDS Church and its members decry Christian groups that refuse to refer to LDS as Christians or the LDS Church as a Christian church?

In all of these quotes the term “Mormon” is being defined as a member of the LDS Church. But that is at least an outdated definition - denying the reality of the existence and legitimacy of other groups that embrace Joseph Smith’s restoration and scriptures. It is certainly self-serving, especially if used to differentiate between the “Mormon” issue and the “Christian” issue.

Why do Christians deny that Mormons are Christians? Why does the LDS Church deny that off-shoot Mormons are Mormons?

See the following (especially in bold):

6) The Associated Press style guide tells its reporters that the term Mormon “is not properly applied” to the other churches that resulted from the split after Joseph Smith's death. It should be obvious why the AP has adopted that policy. It is widely understood that the word “Mormon” refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which sends out “Mormon missionaries,” sponsors the “Mormon Tabernacle Choir” and builds “Mormon temples.” Associating the term ‘Mormon’ with polygamists blurs what should be a crystal-clear line of distinction between organizations that are entirely separate.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/commentary/-mormons-and-polygamy

While the terms LDS and Mormon are not brands in the commercial sense, these terms reflect the identity, reputation and teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS Church has the right and expectation that the use of these terms will convey certain impressions to those who become aware of them. This is known in the business world as brand equity and in the words of NetMBA.com it "is an intangible asset that depends on associations made by the consumer."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700224488/Adoption-of-FLDS-name-is-akin-to-identity-theft.html?pg=all

Christians don’t want the public (consumers) to confuse Mormonism for Christianity. LDS leadership doesn’t want the public to confuse Mormon off-shoots for Mormonism or the LDS Church.

Insofar as the LDS Church denies off-shoot groups the name “Mormon”, the LDS Church undermines its call for non-LDS Christians to accept it as Christian. In nearly every way that the LDS Church justifies denying “Mormon” to off-shoots, it justifies Christians denying “Christian” to Mormonism.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Joshua Valentine

The Nehor · August 25, 2015

I have never heard a Christian make that argument before when they denied us (or me) the name Christian. Are you sure you are not making this up as a reason?

Avatar4321 · August 25, 2015

Christian has a very broad definition. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus Christ. That's fairly vague.

Mormon has a very specific definition. A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days. Entry into the Church has always been clearly defined with baptism and exit clearly defined with excommunication or resigning membership.

I fail to see how using the English language accurately hurts our arguments.

Joshua Valentine · August 25, 2015

I have never heard a Christian make that argument before when they denied us (or me) the name Christian. Are you sure you are not making this up as a reason?

Sorry. Maybe I was unclear. I don't mean this as a reason to deny anyone anything. I am just considering the apparent way the LDS leadership contradicts it's call for acceptance as "Christian" by denying off-shoots the status of "Mormon". It's a consistency issue mainly. (Although it would seem to inevitably affect how the call to be accepted as Christian is viewed - inconsistent, hypocritical, insincere - and thus how it may be responded to.)

saemo · August 25, 2015

Christian has a very broad definition. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus Christ. That's fairly vague.
Mormon has a very specific definition. A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter days. Entry into the Church has always been clearly defined with baptism and exit clearly defined with excommunication or resigning membership.
I fail to see how using the English language accurately hurts our arguments.

As a Catholic, that is the same definition we use. Who has a valid baptism, that has initiated them into the Christian faith?

Obviously, there are many people who could care less what the Catholic definitions of Christian are. Likewise, there are groups who claim to be Mormon that obviously don't care what the LDS Church definitions of Mormon are.

Edited August 25, 2015 by saemo

The Nehor · August 25, 2015

Sorry. Maybe I was unclear. I don't mean this as a reason to deny anyone anything. I am just considering the apparent way the LDS leadership contradicts it's call for acceptance as "Christian" by denying off-shoots the status of "Mormon". It's a consistency issue mainly. (Although it would seem to inevitably affect how the call to be accepted as Christian is viewed - inconsistent, hypocritical, insincere - and thus how it may be responded to.)

While technically correct I disagree we are doing anything wrong. I work in communications and sometimes being technically correct is misleading, deceptive, or even downright lying. This is one of those cases. Christian does not in the popular mind connect to a particular branch of Christianity. If I say I am Christian people do not assume I belong to a specific faith. The general usage is one who follows Jesus Christ and holds him as a key of their religious faith. LDS qualify. To claim we are not Christian is misleading.

The meaning of Mormon is less clear. In the popular mind a Mormon refers to what they know as the LDS faith complete with missionary name tags, temples, Word of Wisdom, and all the rest. To call another restorationist group Mormon is confusing and misleads even if it is correct.

Same thing with the slur "cult" our critics like to throw around. Yes, technically by the anthropological definition the Mormon church could be called a cult and they go on about this ad nauseum in defending their use of the word but they are lying. They are attempting to deceive or provoke others by its use by conveying what the word "cult" means in popular conception. I have no problem with a sociologist or an anthropologist using the word cult to refer to the LDS faith in a context where those hearing it know the technical definition. In other contexts it is misleading. Same with the word Mormon. It has a generally accepted meaning. I prefer the term Restorationist to Mormon because it does not have any baggage. If our offshoots use that word it may not be instantly clear what is meant but can quickly be found out if they are interested.

Once I was speaking with a Muslim friend about our religious faith and he (as a compliment) called me a Muslim as he thought I was someone who submits to God which is the meaning of the word. I took it as a compliment but I would never call myself a Muslim or allow him to do so unchallenged in any context where it gave the impression that I was a follower of Muhammed. I could also call myself Catholic (I believe in a Universal Church) or Baptist (I have been baptized) but doing so would rightly be seen as misleading unless I took the time to explain in detail what I meant. Even then it might be offensive to others.

If our offshoots want an all-embracing name for themselves including us it is up to them to create it. Right now using the word Mormon just serves to confuse listeners.

Stargazer · August 25, 2015

Joshua, the board software apparently does not like all upper-case words in topic titles. If you typed LDS it will change it to Lds. The only way to get around this is to put extra spaces in there: L D S . I am not sure if it will let you put periods in there: L.D.S. And only Mods can edit titles, but they don't often do so.

Stargazer · August 25, 2015

I don't think that the LDS church is undermining its position vis-a-vis an insistence of being classified as Christian when denying non-LDS the use of "Mormon".

By the way, I believe that the grouping word for all offshoots of the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "Restorationist". The original LDS Church is the one which was called Mormon, and the current LDS Church maintains continuity with the original LDS church.

The most major Restorationist offshoot, the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized LDS), did not use the sobriquet "Mormon" and did not identify itself as such. I have been acquainted with some members of that church, and none of them identified as Mormon. So far as I know, none of the Restorationist offshoots used "Mormon" as a designation, even as a generic designation. Several years ago, when the FLDS Church sent out a rather large package of material including so-called "revelations" from their fearless leader to many LDS local leaders, I had the chance of reviewing the material. Nowhere did they use the term "Mormon" to describe their organization.

So far as I can tell, all of the non-LDS Restorationist organizations prefer to NOT be identified as "Mormon". Because among them, WE are the Mormons, and they aren't.

The Church distinguishes itself from these other organizations in its advice to journalists primarily to keep the journalists straight, not to DENY the designation to others out of some selfishness.

Were you aware that the Church of England is an offshoot from Roman Catholicism? Would the Pope be OK with the Archbishop of Canterbury claiming to be a Catholic? Or would both the Pope and the Archbishop prefer to say that he is a Anglican? More to the point, wouldn't the Vatican advise journalists to refer to the RCC as such, and the CofE as something else?

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Mormons. Members of the FLDS Church are not. I am pretty sure that they are content with this -- can you demonstrate otherwise? But all of them, LDS, FLDS, CoC, Strangites, Temple Lot, and so on, are all Restorationists, and are Christians.

Let's all call things what they are.

saemo · August 25, 2015

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9828897...SL Trib, "We're Mormons Too"

http://www.imormonff.com/beliefs.html...Mormons

http://reform-mormon.blogspot.com... This one has a blog entry on why the LDS Church is not Mormon

Edited August 25, 2015 by saemo

Stargazer · August 25, 2015

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9828897...SL Tribe, "We're Mormons Too"
http://www.imormonff.com/beliefs.html...Mormons
http://reform-mormon.blogspot.com... This one has a blog entry on why the LDS Church is not Mormon

Oh, all right. Some of them want to claim it. Many others do not.

saemo · August 25, 2015

Oh, all right. Some of them want to claim it. Many others do not.

I watched, with morbid fascination, "Sister Wives". I tried to find a quote, but can't. The Brown's call themselves Mormom. Sometimes with the "fundamentalist" qualifier, sometimes not.

Stargazer · August 25, 2015

I watched, with morbid fascination, "Sister Wives". I tried to find a quote, but can't. The Brown's call themselves Mormom. Sometimes with the "fundamentalist" qualifier, sometimes not.

You got a stronger stomach than I do.

Yes, they can call themselves anything they want. Doesn't mean that's what they are. It's like calling a Megalodon a "shark". There's a resemblance, perhaps, but that isn't what it is.

By the way, you're up late! Can't sleep?

thatjimguy · August 25, 2015

I think you should go one step further with this;

What makes a Methodist a Methodist?

Their unique view on Christianity.

What makes a Pentecostal a Pentecostal?

Their unique view on Christianity.

What makes a Mormon a Mormon?

Their unique view on Christianity.

As much as Methodists may say that other churches are Christian, they would not say they are Methodists. The same goes with Pentecostals, and of course, the same goes for Mormons.

My friend is a Methodist, but he would not want to be a fundamental Methodist or another kind.

Edited August 25, 2015 by thatjimguy

Flyonthewall · August 25, 2015

I think it would be more accurate to compare Protestants and Catholic to Mormons and their offshoots.

Would the Catholic church be wrong to not include any or all Protestants as Catholic?

Can a Protestand faith rightly be called Catholic since that is their root?

"Fundamentalist" mormons have departed from the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and do not share leadership. Oh they may argue that they are the ones that maintained the true doctrines, but the fact of the matter is, they split with the church. The CoJCoLDS originally had the nickname "mormon", and they left.

LDS claim that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior, so the term "Christian" still applies to us.

"Christian" is a very broad category while "Mormon" is very specific.

jkwilliams · August 25, 2015

Christians don’t want the public (consumers) to confuse Mormonism for Christianity. LDS leadership doesn’t want the public to confuse Mormon off-shoots for Mormonism or the LDS Church.

Insofar as the LDS Church denies off-shoot groups the name “Mormon”, the LDS Church undermines its call for non-LDS Christians to accept it as Christian. In nearly every way that the LDS Church justifies denying “Mormon” to off-shoots, it justifies Christians denying “Christian” to Mormonism.

This is a really poor argument. The LDS church doesn't want people mistaking the offshoots for members of the LDS church. Unless there is some official Christian church I am unaware of, your analogy falls apart on the face of it.

Avatar4321 · August 25, 2015

This is a really poor argument. The LDS church doesn't want people mistaking the offshoots for members of the LDS church. Unless there is some official Christian church I am unaware of, your analogy falls apart on the face of it.

There actually is an official Christian church. The Church bbqing of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints.

Unfortunately we.haven't fully persuaded everyone to recognize that

jkwilliams · August 25, 2015

There actually is an official Christian church. The Church bbqing of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints.
Unfortunately we.haven't fully persuaded everyone to recognize that

If it involves BBQ, I'm in.

Avatar4321 · August 25, 2015

If it involves BBQ, I'm in.

Well Christ coming may involve some bbq but it might not be the way you mean it...

SeekingUnderstanding · August 25, 2015

"Fundamentalist" mormons have departed from the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and do not share leadership. Oh they may argue that they are the ones that maintained the true doctrines, but the fact of the matter is, they split with the church. The CoJCoLDS originally had the nickname "mormon", and they left.

I think this is backwards. Fundamentalist Mormons live based on doctrines that were taught and believed through President John Taylor. It is the mainline church that changed, not them.

jkwilliams · August 25, 2015

Well Christ coming may involve some bbq but it might not be the way you mean it...

Something like this?

Buckeye · August 25, 2015

This is a really poor argument. The LDS church doesn't want people mistaking the offshoots for members of the LDS church. Unless there is some official Christian church I am unaware of, your analogy falls apart on the face of it.

There is also no official "mormon" church - at least in the US. About 10 years ago the LDS church tried to trademark the term "mormon" for religious services. We were rejected by the trademark office because we frankly don't have enough control over the term. I'll grant that more people associate "mormon" with the LDS church than associate "christian" with any particular denomination, but the connection is still not strong enough for the LDS church to claim sole ownership over "mormon."

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the LDS church's concerns that we get confused with fundamentalists. It's not uncommon for me to have to explain to by neighbors that my faith is not that of Warren Jeffs. But it's also not uncommon for me to have to explain to my neighbors that my faith doesn't eschew modern technology (they sometimes confuse me with the amish). That's just normal human ignorance. And it's just as prevelant in LDS circles. Try asking your local ward members the difference between Lutherans, baptists, anabaptists, methodists, and greek orthodox. You'll quickly see how ignorant we are as well.

That's why, when it comes to professions of faith, I follow the principle of allowing each person the right to describe themself. If someone says they're a christian, I accept that. If someone says they're a mormon, I accept that.

jkwilliams · August 25, 2015

That's why, when it comes to professions of faith, I follow the principle of allowing each person the right to describe themself. If someone says they're a christian, I accept that. If someone says they're a mormon, I accept that.

Precisely. It's annoying when people presume to define who is and who isn't a Christian. Back in the day, when people would say "You worship a different Jesus," I would say, "Well, I don't know which Jesus you worship, but I worship the one who was born in Bethlehem as the Son of God and who suffered and died for our sins. Which one do you worship?"

Glenn101 · August 25, 2015

Frankly, I really do not care whether a group or individual or denomination thinks that I and the rest of the LDS think that I and the LDS in general are Christians. The term seemingly was coined by non-Christians many centuries ago to categorize the followers of this strange new religion, I would ~~wager,~~ er, tentatively put forth the idea that a Muslim well versed in the history of the Christian religious movement would be amused by the haggling and pretty much consider all 39000 or so Christian denominations pretty much in the same camp. Although such an one might feel that the LDS was a bit wimpy in giving up on polygamy, since it was a feature of the Lords people for several thousand years.

Most Christians probably view the followers of Allah and Mohammed as Muslims, even though there are some pretty deep rifts among the different Muslim sects.

The only person whose opinion really matters is the one that Christ has of us.

Glenn

Gray · August 25, 2015

Hmm, tempting to comment on the word fundamentalist - polygamists and orthodox Mormons alike tend to take a fundamentalist approach to scripture. But that's not really on topic.

Gray · August 25, 2015

Anyway, it would seem to me at least that the word "Mormon" should apply to anyone who includes the Book of Mormon in their canon, and "Latter-day Saint" should be used to more specifically refer to members of the mainstream LDS Church.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Gray

Lds Undermining Calls To Acceptance As Christian

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