Who is the One Mighty Among Them (2 Nephi 3:24)?

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Vance said:

The punctuation and therefore sentences were put in by the printer.  The original text had no periods, comma, semi-colons, etc.

Verses 23 and 24 are quoting a prophesy of Joseph of old (Son of Jacob) and therefore do NOT of necessity refer to a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi.

The punctuation and editing are sound, IMO. Can you suggest an alternative? 23 and 24 are clearly Lehi's words to his son JosephL. SWK and JFS saw it that way. They thought the one would be a future Native American. That could be, but I think Mormon is the perfect candidate.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Vance]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:27 AM, Bernard Gui said:

The punctuation and editing are sound, IMO. Can you suggest an alternative? 23 and 24 are clearly Lehi's words to his son JosephL. SWK and JFS saw it that way. They thought the one would be a future Native American. That could be, but I think Mormon is the perfect candidate.

Well, since you asked.
 

Quote

 

22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy,

23 "Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book,

24 and there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren".

 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Vance

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Vance said:

Well, since you asked.
 

 

Changing the period in verse 22 to a comma and adding the quotation marks do change the intent and meaning of 24 and 25. It is a possible reading. On the other hand, the promise of surviving seed was one that Lehi gave to his sons on several occasions and was a recurring theme throughout the Book of Mormon. That was never an issue with JosephE as far as I can determine. Verse 23 repeats Lehi's promise given to JosephL in verse 3, which makes these final verses a more proper summary and conclusion to his personal blessing:

Quote

3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.

In verse 24 Lehi distinguishes the blessings the mighty one will bring in restoring much to both the house of Israel and JosephL's seed. I think that is not a promise made to or by Joseph E, but rather to JosephL by his father Lehi. 

Therefore, the mighty one will by a Lehite through JosephL, not Joseph Smith. - possibly Mormon and/or a future Lehite prophet. I like Mormon.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Vance]

I disagree. To me "unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel," is clearly talking about JosephS and "unto the seed of thy brethren" is clearly speaking about the brethren of Joseph son of Jacob and not the brethren of JosephL. Where in scripture are the brethren of JosephL mentioned?

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

32 minutes ago, Vance said:

I disagree. To me "unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel," is clearly talking about JosephS and "unto the seed of thy brethren" is clearly speaking about the brethren of Joseph son of Jacob and not the brethren of JosephL. Where in scripture are the brethren of JosephL mentioned?

Does this count?

Quote

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites [descendants of Lehi, father of JosephL], who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile.... Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

Is there a threat that the seed of JosephE would be destroyed?

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Vance]

On 11/28/2016 at 9:03 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Does this count?

 

No, because it doesn't refer to them as the brethren of JosephL.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Vance said:

No, because it doesn't refer to them as the brethren of JosephL.

Why does it have to have those specific words? These words are clearly Lehi's and they refer to the Lamanites and Nephite all of whom were Lehi's posterity and therefore the seed of JosephL's brothers.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Woody]

My thoughts, solicited by the OP:

1. Quotation does not match 2Ne 2:22+. Scratching head.

2. Located quotation in 2Ne 3. To understand close meanings in the Book of Mormon, get the text as close to the Original Manuscript as possible, take out all punctuation, and parse carefully, keeping in mind the backwoods New York dialect of the 1820s. Your quotation follows the current text, which, as I make it out, changes a word from the 1830 text.

3. Under that scouring, the new word, "rise", makes better English grammar but does change the meaning. As it read in 1830 (where the chapter really was 2), there were 2 possible interpretations:

a. what we mean today when we say 'there shall rise up one...'

b. the passage is not totally coherent. 'Raise up' is transitive, but there's no raising agent. Maybe the intended meaning didn't get written coherently, or maybe Lehi, or Nephi, or Joseph Smith, one of them, intentionally obscured it. If so, we won't be able to identify this person.

Changing the word to "rise" eliminated this point b.

PPS: Art the Fulla Bulla man still alive? that'd be a miracle right there. I think I still have a copy of the "excommunication" he slapped down for me tailor made. He would dish them out like fritters. And cuss horribly, fleece his discipes, get drunk and get in fights. No one took offense enough to send him to Sheol? Huh.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Woody
author, and only the author, should have the privilege of editing his own output

[Five Solas]

On 12/1/2016 at 7:06 PM, Woody said:

...

or maybe Lehi, or Nephi, or Joseph Smith, one of them, intentionally obscured it. If so, we won't be able to identify this person.

...

Wow.  But not without some precedent. 

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

--Matthew 13:10-11

Cold comfort you offer Bernard, Scott, et al. scratching their heads over this, Woody.

;0)

--Erik

[Woody]

Well, look at DC 110:12. Who's Elias? It's Greek for Elijah, but it wasn't Elijah (see next verse). McConkie thought it was some prophet (otherwise unheard of) named Elias (in Hebrew) who lived near the time of Abraham and wound up with the keys. I think this messenger's identity was intentionally hidden by Joseph Smith. Look at the rest of the verse, what's meant by "committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham" ? The other messengers delivered keys. This one delivered the whole dispensation. I think v.12 got nuked somewhere along the line.

 

[Five Solas]

On 12/6/2016 at 11:13 PM, Woody said:

Well, look at DC 110:12. Who's Elias? It's Greek for Elijah, but it wasn't Elijah (see next verse). McConkie thought it was some prophet (otherwise unheard of) named Elias (in Hebrew) who lived near the time of Abraham and wound up with the keys. I think this messenger's identity was intentionally hidden by Joseph Smith. Look at the rest of the verse, what's meant by "committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham" ? The other messengers delivered keys. This one delivered the whole dispensation. I think v.12 got nuked somewhere along the line.

 

Interesting how McConkie felt he needed to make some kind of answer, however absurd.  You, by contrast, have demonstrated real humility by acknowledging you don't know, and further--you don't believe the author intended for you to know.  And you're okay with not being special, not being privy to the undisclosed.  You're at peace.  While those with an excess of self-esteem scamper amuck, substantiate mirage & erect precarious buffers against the truth... 

;0)

--Erik