Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

Not it doesn't that is only that Christ didn't know them. Lots of people might know who you are but you don't know them so that would mean they don't know who you are? That is essentially what you are saying.

 

Yeah those sheep as per Mathew 25 are those that actually do things. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't do? Those that did not visit Christ in jail and feed the hungry are the goats they are not saved.

 

Note in John that there is a 2 way knowing that is going on. That is missing that other verse. Where only Christ says he doesn't know them. They clearly believed who Jesus was. And you still are neglecting that only those that "do the will" are saved. Not just perform a mental exercise.

 

The focus of your argument (and I don't mean this personally, rather it's an LDS position) is on what they "do". Obeying commandments. Yet, that isn't the message of the New Testament. 

 

Jesus didn't say, "Obey the commandments, then this will lead you to knowledge of me." Nope. He said, "Come unto me [first] and I will give you rest." And "John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already" 

 

It doesn't say, "transform yourself by obeying the commandments first." Rather, it says "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

 

Why does God say it this way? Because we aren't able to save ourselves, we can't transform ourselves. We can't even obey the commandments! 

 

So, when Christ says "I know my sheep and my sheep know me" It is showing us it's not about doing anything, but being. Being in relationship with God. Just as he said, Eternal life is to Know him. If it weren't about relationship, then Jesus would have said, "Obey the commands first, then you will be worthy for the gift of eternal life." 

 

​The willingness and ability to obey his commands comes after we are transformed by his spirit, not before. We simply weren't given the power to do that. Seems to me that it would be awfully frustrating trying to obey his commands before experiencing this transformation.

Edited September 19, 2014 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

By the same token, where in there does it say that all "believers" know him and are his sheep?

Jesus is referring to believers as Sheep, and he says, "my sheep know me"

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Jesus is referring to believers as Sheep, and he says, "my sheep know me"

And why are they his sheep? Because they performed a mental exercise? What does Mathew 25 say?

[Tacenda]

In answer to the OP....

 

YES!

 

'nuff said. 

 

I've had a confirmation as of late that confirmed to me that this is so, I don't care if LDS teach differently then other faiths, who's to say they are right?  Or who's to say if LDS don't have it all right either, it's a process.  Science is opening all kinds of truths, that should have all religions taking pause and then evolve to what leads to the #1 commandment that supersedes all or encompasses all other commandments or leads to living all commandments!

 

I wish we'd all come together in faith, and quit hashing these things out.  No one is going to know unless they've been transfigured and come back.  The bible writers could be wrong.  Not to preach, but something has changed in my thinking and I needed to let it out. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

The focus of your argument (and I don't mean this personally, rather it's an LDS position) is on what they "do". Obeying commandments. Yet, that isn't the message of the New Testament.

 

Acutally it is the message of the NT, we have gone to great lengths to show you all the verse that mention you have to do something.

 

Jesus didn't say, "Obey the commandments, then this will lead you to knowledge of me." Nope. He said, "Come unto me [first] and I will give you rest." And "John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already"

  Actually he did, those that know him know him because they follow the commandments. Vance has already quoted the relevant verses.

 

It doesn't say, "transform yourself by obeying the commandments first." Rather, it says "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

The bible doesn't say that accepting Jesus into your heart and performing a mental exercise will save you either, but that doesn't stop you from believing it.  BTW you have presented a strawman, we never once said that you need to "transform yourself by obeying the commandments first". That is 2nd. Faith is first. But your faith is only made alive after you have works.

 

Why does God say it this way? Because we aren't able to save ourselves, we can't transform ourselves. We can't even obey the commandments!

Again, the LDS never claimed we could save our selves. That is a total straw man. And yes we can obey the commandments through Christ.

 

When you say it the way did, you are advocating not following God, to not follow the commandments. I can beat my wife because, hey I cannot even obey the commandments, that is what Daniel Woods is telling me.

 

So, when Christ says "I know my sheep and my sheep know me" It is showing us it's not about doing anything, but being. Being in relationship with God. Just as he said, Eternal life is to Know him. If it weren't about relationship, then Jesus would have said, "Obey the commands first, then you will be worthy for the gift of eternal life."

wrong. Mathew 25 tells a very different story.

 

​The willingness and ability to obey his commands comes after we are transformed by his spirit, not before. We simply weren't given the power to do that. Seems to me that it would be awfully frustrating trying to obey his commands before experiencing this transformation.

We actually agree on this. We obey the commandments because we have faith, first, that God has commanded us to follow them. Don't you get that?

[Vance]

The focus of your argument (and I don't mean this personally, rather it's an LDS position) is on what they "do". Obeying commandments. Yet, that isn't the message of the New Testament.

Yes it is.

You obviously missed Anakin7's post #848.

Jesus didn't say, "Obey the commandments, then this will lead you to knowledge of me." Nope. He said, "Come unto me [first] and I will give you rest." And "John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already"

Just what do you think it means to "come unto me"? Jesus clearly taught obedience to commandments.

I would repeat some of the verses I have posted but it wouldn't make any difference. You don't believe them any way. You just make excuses about them.

You guys demand up and down that we LDS don't follow the Bible, but it is rather obvious that it isn't us that has the problem with following the Bible.

It doesn't say, "transform yourself by obeying the commandments first." Rather, it says "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"

Even if it used those words exactly, you still wouldn't believe.

Peter taught that God gives the Spirit to the obedience. John taught that you can't know God and disobey God.

Why does God say it this way? Because we aren't able to save ourselves,

True, and no one here has claimed otherwise.

we can't transform ourselves.

Well, God can't transform us without our permission and our action. So now what.

We can't even obey the commandments!

Where in the Bible does it say that? It doesn't.

Oh, this is one of those incidences where you are claiming something that isn't in the Bible but it is ok because you believe it. But when we do that, you have a fit.

So, when Christ says "I know my sheep and my sheep know me" It is showing us it's not about doing anything, but being. Being in relationship with God. Just as he said, Eternal life is to Know him. If it weren't about relationship, then Jesus would have said, "Obey the commands first, then you will be worthy for the gift of eternal life."

Really? So Jesus HAS to do it your way or it doesn't count? Arrogant much.

One more time, because apparently you don't get it.

Eternal life <=> Knowing God

Knowing God <=> Keeping the Commandments

Ergo Eternal life <=> Keeping the Commandments. Which is consistent with several verses provided to you.

​

The willingness and ability to obey his commands comes after we are transformed by his spirit, not before.

Prove it!

Why is there the commandment to repent, if we can't repent until after God gives us his spirit?

Why does Peter teach that God gives the Spirit to the obedient?

Tell me, from this verse which comes first the Spirit or obedience?

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Oh, wait. You don't believe it so that verse must not mean what it says.

We simply weren't given the power to do that.

CFR

Seems to me that it would be awfully frustrating trying to obey his commands before experiencing this transformation.

"Seems to me"?

Wow, your arguments are vacuous and vapid.

I have a question, how can you know the Master you have not served?

[Anakin7]

    My NIV 2002 Edition says for John 6:28-29 says - Then they asked him, what must we do to do the works God requires ?. Jesus answered, the work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

 

    My note at the bottom for 6:29 says - work of God. Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispenable work God calls for - the one that leads to eternal life.

 

    So believing [ A ongoing action in greek like the word Faith both of which come from the same greek root word from my understanding] is a mental/physical action in response to Grace and walking hand in hand with it.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    In case this was missed by anyone - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

    My NIV 2002 Edition says for John 6:28-29 says - Then they asked him, what must we do to do the works God requires ?. Jesus answered, the work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

 

    My note at the bottom for 6:29 says - work of God. Believing in Jesus Christ is the indispenable work God calls for - the one that leads to eternal life.

 

    So believing [ A ongoing action in greek like the word Faith both of which come from the same greek root word from my understanding] is a mental/physical action in response to Grace and walking hand in hand with it.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 

 

Jesus was asked specifically what works were required and can you tell me what works He included in His reply?

[Anakin7]

     To Believe in Christ Jesus, an ongoing work of Belief and Faith.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

     To Believe in Christ Jesus, an ongoing work of Belief and Faith.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

 

There is no such thing.  Belief is not a work because it is not an action, but a state of being and given Philippians everyone will be a believer so there is no real option not to believe.

 

Faith is not a work of itself because it is unseen according to Hebrews, so how do we "have faith"?.  By providing evidence of the unseen  That is why James said you can only have faith BY works.  There is no such thing as faith without works.  It is a meaningless term.

 

And as for "Believing on Christ" being the only work of God, the question then has to be asked: "To What End?"  What is actually achieved when one acknowledges a belief in Christ, something ALL mankind are going to be forced to do anyway?  What does claiming "I believe in Christ" or "I have faith in Christ" actually do or mean as far as our lives are concerned?

[Vance]

John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 

 

Jesus was asked specifically what works were required and can you tell me what works He included in His reply?

Can you really believe in Jesus Christ without believing and following what He taught?

[Anakin7]

    I see that True Anchient Belief and Faith within The Walls of The Heavenly Jerusalam where God The Father The Monarch of The Universe/His Son Chist Jesus The Vice Monarch/Lord Of Life/Lord/Reedermer/Saviour/God/King/Master/ God The Holy Ghost/Spirit the awesome testator/Sanctifier/Archangels/Angels/Rightiousness/Truth/Anchient True O.T Prophets/Israelites/N.T Saints/Christians is being presented by modern day evangelical protestantism as something it was not. Believe/Faith were ultimate expressions of there True Covenant with God and Jesus Christ. Striving/Washing there Robes in the Blood of the Lamb were in there Heart/Mind. Need to read there words in an Anchient near eastern landscape not 19th century evangelicalism.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    Pray tell - True Faith [pistis] is not a work ?. pistis - faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust just to name a few anchient middle eastern meanings of the word faith and believe which come from the same greek root word.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

    Pray tell - True Faith [pistis] is not a work ?. pistis - faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust just to name a few anchient middle eastern meanings of the word faith and believe which come from the same greek root word.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

Oooh,  I like  "obedience".  I'll go with that one.  You know what one is missing?  "Belief".

Faith is not just believing.  True faith is an unseen condition that manifests works as evidence of the unseen condition.  Without those works manifesting you don't actually have any faith.

[Anakin7]

       http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

       http://www.14lds.com/luther.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

That's a pretty good article.  I enjoyed that.

 

One passage I liked was:

"Why then do we have so many laws of the Church which urge men to do good works if all it takes to please God is faith?" I answer: Because we do not all have faith or else we do not heed it. If every man did indeed have faith then we would need no more laws, because every one would do good works all of the time by himself without anyone telling him what to do, just as God teaches him. "

 

It completely affirms my point from Hebrews - if we have unseen faith we will do works as evidence of it. 

 

The parallels with Luther and Joseph Smith are interesting.  I think they would have gotten along very well.  Hey, Martin Luther even allowed for polygamy as being correct biblically (and performed a polygamous marriage).

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 

 

Jesus was asked specifically what works were required and can you tell me what works He included in His reply?

 

Oh so all I have to do is perform a mental exercise to be saved? Because that is what you guys keep telling me. Is just to believe.

[Flyonthewall]

There are hints or indications of what the rewards are, however, none of them state that a person won't be in Heaven as a result of lack of rewards. Jesus even stated that some will be "least" and some will be "great" in the kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 5:19). However, I can't think of one instance where the lack of reward reduced a person to separation from God. 

 

Here's a link to a description of rewards that are pretty close to what I believe. 

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/gillette/bg21.html

We could have saved a lot of back and forth concerning judgment if you would have simply agreed that ALL MANKIND will be judged - from the link:

"The Scriptures are filled with references to the ultimate judgment of our works, yet somehow many Christians have either failed to understand--or have chosen to ignore--what the Bible says. Nevertheless, we will be judged. Paul makes this clear in his letter to the Corinthians:

"For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body" (2 Corinthians 5:10, NLT)."

That being said, another quote from the link you provided says:

Not Everyone Will Have the Same Status in Heaven

This leads us to another myth that has taken hold of the Christian community: that everyone will enjoy equal standing in Heaven. This is not true. Although God loves each of us without end, some will be given positions of higher status, authority, and responsibility than others.

This is what I have been saying, the only difference is whether or not we are in the presence of the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost. Now since they are ONE God, it really is not a difference... is there....?

[Garden Girl]

 

And as for "Believing on Christ" being the only work of God, the question then has to be asked: "To What End?"  What is actually achieved when one acknowledges a belief in Christ, something ALL mankind are going to be forced to do anyway?  What does claiming "I believe in Christ" or "I have faith in Christ" actually do or mean as far as our lives are concerned?

 

I'm sure this quote has been cited, along with others from James... but...

 

James 2:19... "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."  Followed by James 2:20... "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

 

In other words, we believe... and in doing so we do well... BUT, even the devils believe and that causes them to tremble.  But if our belief, or faith, is not accompanied by our works, then it is dead...

 

GG

 

Sorry if I'm redundant...

[Canadaigua]

Can you really believe in Jesus Christ without believing and following what He taught?

 You can place your trust in Christ to save you from your sins and not obey all of the commandments since nobody obeys all of the commandments.

 

Now let me ask you the same thing.  Can you really believe in Jesus Christ without believing and following what He taught [obey all of the commandments]?

[Canadaigua]

I'm sure this quote has been cited, along with others from James... but...

 

James 2:19... "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."  Followed by James 2:20... "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

 

In other words, we believe... and in doing so we do well... BUT, even the devils believe and that causes them to tremble.  But if our belief, or faith, is not accompanied by our works, then it is dead...

 

GG

 

Sorry if I'm redundant...

Do you believe that angels/demons are saved by placing their faith in Christ?

[JLHPROF]

Do you believe that angels/demons are saved by placing their faith in Christ?

 

Of course not.  Because noone is saved ONLY by believing that Christ is what we know he is.  It is what that does in our lives (that it doesn't do for the devils) that  makes the difference.

[danielwoods]

We could have saved a lot of back and forth concerning judgment if you would have simply agreed that ALL MANKIND will be judged - from the link:

That being said, another quote from the link you provided says:

This is what I have been saying, the only difference is whether or not we are in the presence of the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost. Now since they are ONE God, it really is not a difference... is there....?

 

You seriously aren't claiming that those in the Celestial kingdom have the same interactions/fellowship/access (how you want to describe it?) to/with God that the other two kingdoms have are you? 

[Canadaigua]

Of course not.  Because noone is saved ONLY by believing that Christ is what we know he is.  It is what that does in our lives (that it doesn't do for the devils) that  makes the difference.

LDS often use that verse to try and support a works based salvation but angels/demons are not humans so when LDS use this verse Christians scratch their head and wonder why you guys even bring this verse up.