Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

So why is it that He was able to pay for all of us without spending eternity in Hell and yet (according to you) our spending eternity in hell is insufficient punishment for and individual?

It makes no sense.

Oh please, if that is it let's talk about what the NT says about the immateriality of God.

It has been shown to you. You didn't accept it. So why are you wasting our time with further inquiry?

PS you seem to think that we are required to have the Bible as THE basis for your beliefs. Clue=> We don't. We get our doctrine the same way Paul got his.

Oh by the way did you know that the Bible seems to indicate that there are least three levels of hell?

 

Jesus was infinite God, and man at the same time (lamb of God), which means he had the unique ability to pay for our sin. 

 

The reason we are unable to pay for our own sin, is because our sacrifice isn't sinless. 

 

We can talk about the immateriality of God if you wish, but I only have so much time.....

[danielwoods]

If only that were true.  Christ said that we should not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

The problem is, you think the Bible (but especially the NT) is ALL and EVERYTHING that God ever had to say on anything.  Even the Bible doesn't accept that.

Unless you are willing to accept that God still speaks to man and clarifies his will and doctrine and reveals even more you will never be able to find ALL the truth.  Why on earth would God have spoke to man for 4000 years before Christ and 100 years after Christ and then suddenly stop.  It makes no sense.

 

If you truly wanted truth you would be willing to look for it.

 

IF God were to come down and say to the LDS Prophet, that God the Father hasn't a physical body, like you've been taught in the past. And this Prophet then proclaimed this message to you. Would you accept it as true? 

[danielwoods]

No, we are condemned because we sin not because we didn't chose God. We are redeemed when we chose God. There is a difference. All men sin because of the fall and die, Christ is what makes us a live both spiritually and physically. Christ allows mercy to those that accept it. If those that do not qualify for mercy what happens to them?

 

So they (those who go to prison) will not get out until when? What does it say? It is so plain I cannot believe you still deny it.

 

 

 

 

Then why do you deny what is in the bible? Those in prison will be let out when they pay the utmost penny.

 

Rejection of God is at the foundation of all sin. 

 

What prison are you talking about? 

 

I don't deny what's in the bible. If you think that Matt. 5 is talking about hell, then we disagree. I couldn't ever imagine that God was my adversary. 

[JLHPROF]

IF God were to come down and say to the LDS Prophet, that God the Father hasn't a physical body, like you've been taught in the past. And this Prophet then proclaimed this message to you. Would you accept it as true? 

 

No, because the prophet Joseph Smith taugh that: "And again we never inquire at the hand of God for special revelation only in case of there being no previous revelation to suit the case;" and also that "How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? that is one of the signs that he can be known by, and by his contradicting a former revelation".

[Flyonthewall]

You are right, it doesn't say anyone gets out for good behavior. The passage in Revelation doesn't say anyone is freed from Hell. As it states, after death comes the judgement, meaning there is but one judgement, but once in hell no one leaves or is redeemed. The time for redemption is done at that point.

Can you tell me which meaning of "hell" is being used in Revelation? Sheol? or Gehenna?

 

This is why I asked you what your interpretation of the Rich ruler and Lazarus. In that passage it's clear there are only two places we go, based solely on what we do in this life.

This is part of the Plan of Salvation. When we die, we are subject to an initial judgment and the righteous(good) will go to paradise, the unrighteous(bad) will go to spirit prison.

Paradise

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, He visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30).

This is where Lazarus was.

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

This is where the rich man was.

(I already know you will say this is not from the Bible, but it is alluded to in 1 Peter 3 & 4)

[JLHPROF]

What prison are you talking about? 

 

 

The prision of the disobedient spirits where those who didn't know the gospel of Christ in mortality and so never had to opportunity to repent wait for their judgement.  All men must be judged by the same standard for God to be just.

Christ went there and taught them so they would be able to choose Christ or reject, just as we have that choice.  The specific reference refers to Christ visiting disobedient spirits from the time of Noah.

 

I PETER CHAPTER 3 -

¹⁸ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

¹⁹ By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

²⁰ Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

²¹ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

Interestingly, this is also where LDS people get our baptimal age from.

[danielwoods]

If only that were true.  Christ said that we should not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

The problem is, you think the Bible (but especially the NT) is ALL and EVERYTHING that God ever had to say on anything.  Even the Bible doesn't accept that.

Unless you are willing to accept that God still speaks to man and clarifies his will and doctrine and reveals even more you will never be able to find ALL the truth.  Why on earth would God have spoke to man for 4000 years before Christ and 100 years after Christ and then suddenly stop.  It makes no sense.

 

If you truly wanted truth you would be willing to look for it.

 

 

No, because the prophet Joseph Smith taugh that: "And again we never inquire at the hand of God for special revelation only in case of there being no previous revelation to suit the case;" and also that "How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? that is one of the signs that he can be known by, and by his contradicting a former revelation".

 

Right. So your accusation of my position (above) is incorrect for the same reason or principle that the LDS use. The reason I am wondering about these particular LDS doctrines is because it appears to me that they are not only not taught in the NT, but are actually "contradicting a former revelation." 

[JLHPROF]

Right. So your accusation of my position (above) is incorrect for the same reason or principle that the LDS use. The reason I am wondering about these particular LDS doctrines is because it appears to me that they are not only not taught in the NT, but are actually "contradicting a former revelation." 

 

No, they contradict your interpretation of the former revelation.  Your key phrase is "they appear to me".  The modern revelations in no way contradict the New Testament.  They DO contradict the traditional Christian interpretation of the New Testament, but since that interpretation is wrong it's not really a contradiction.

Edited September 26, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rejection of God is at the foundation of all sin. 

 

What prison are you talking about? 

 

I don't deny what's in the bible. If you think that Matt. 5 is talking about hell, then we disagree. I couldn't ever imagine that God was my adversary. 

Sigh, again. Disagreeing with your adversary and not repenting is the reason they are in prison, God is not the adversary, I never said that and the bible never says that. Stop dodging and presenting straw men.

 

What is prison? You cannot even tell me. You just "disagree". Why? Because for some unknown reason to you and me, you just do because I am Mormon and what  a Mormon says cannot possibly be right??

 

Further more, if the spirits in prison cannot get out because they are in Hell, why did Christ visit them? Do you even know?

 

I think it would be useful for you to figure out what Prison is. It is something that the evangelical crowd wont even touch. Go ask your pastor what it is. You clearly are not prepared to talk about it. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[coolrok7]

I'm at work now on my lunch break. I'll elaborate later.

[Vance]

Sigh, again. Disagreeing with your adversary and not repenting is the reason they are in prison, God is not the adversary, I never said that and the bible never says that. Stop dodging and presenting straw men.

 

What is prison? You cannot even tell me. You just "disagree". Why? Because for some unknown reason to you and me, you just do because I am Mormon and what  a Mormon says cannot possibly be right??

 

Further more, if the spirits in prison cannot get out because they are in Hell, why did Christ visit them? Do you even know?

 

I think it would be useful for you to figure out what Prison is. It is something that the evangelical crowd wont even touch. Go ask your pastor what it is. You clearly are not prepared to talk about it. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

Sounds like the classic anti-Mormon screed, "I don't know what it means, BUT Mormons are wrong."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sounds like the classic anti-Mormon screed, "I don't know what it means, BUT Mormons are wrong."

Yeah I had that a few time in the mission. I don't want to say that is what Daniel is doing, it just feels like that. For the most part there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know what prison is" I have no issue with it. But to argue against our position and then offer nothing in response is really not that compelling.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[danielwoods]

Can you tell me which meaning of "hell" is being used in Revelation? Sheol? or Gehenna?

 

This is part of the Plan of Salvation. When we die, we are subject to an initial judgment and the righteous(good) will go to paradise, the unrighteous(bad) will go to spirit prison.

This is where Lazarus was.

This is where the rich man was.

(I already know you will say this is not from the Bible, but it is alluded to in 1 Peter 3 & 4)

 

Revelation is talking about Gehenna, that which is thrown into the lake of fire. 

 

According to the NT there are only two places a person goes when he dies. One good and one bad. 

 

 

An explanation of the 1 peter passage:

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

[danielwoods]

No, they contradict your interpretation of the former revelation.  Your key phrase is "they appear to me".  The modern revelations in no way contradict the New Testament.  They DO contradict the traditional Christian interpretation of the New Testament, but since that interpretation is wrong it's not really a contradiction.

 

So, when we take a week or so and go through each possible NT passage and look at them closely and find that there is actually not even a hint of different levels (that separate people from the Father), as the LSD claim. You somehow believe that this is all just my "interpretation" that is seeing no levels? That really, in actuality there are levels to heaven as the LDS teach, in the NT? 

 

Please tell me where I missed the boat on that? Where did I misinterpret the NT when it talked about the different levels of Heaven that separate people from the father? 

 

If there isn't anything in the NT That supports this teaching, then the LDS teaching is in opposition to that which is taught in the NT. Because the NT teaches that all who are in Heaven are with God (Father, Son, Spirit). 

[danielwoods]

Sigh, again. Disagreeing with your adversary and not repenting is the reason they are in prison, God is not the adversary, I never said that and the bible never says that. Stop dodging and presenting straw men.

 

What is prison? You cannot even tell me. You just "disagree". Why? Because for some unknown reason to you and me, you just do because I am Mormon and what  a Mormon says cannot possibly be right??

 

Further more, if the spirits in prison cannot get out because they are in Hell, why did Christ visit them? Do you even know?

 

I think it would be useful for you to figure out what Prison is. It is something that the evangelical crowd wont even touch. Go ask your pastor what it is. You clearly are not prepared to talk about it. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

 

First, Matt. 5. Please explain who is who in your opinion, in that analogy, because I'm not seeing what your seeing. 

 

Second. I wasn't sure you were talking about 1 Peter's reference to prison, so I wanted to be sure. 

 

As far as thinking the evangelical crowd won't touch the topic… I don't know. Arrogance? 

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First, Matt. 5. Please explain who is who in your opinion, in that analogy, because I'm not seeing what your seeing. 

 

Second. I wasn't sure you were talking about 1 Peter's reference to prison, so I wanted to be sure. 

 

As far as thinking the evangelical crowd won't touch the topic… I don't know. Arrogance? 

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

You are right some do but most don't. That was my intent. I mis-spoke er typed. This guy should probably turn in his PHD. Oh well.

 

In 1 Peter 3:18-20, a most curious reference appears on the surface to be an affirmation that Jesus descended into the spirit realm and preached to deceased people. However, a close consideration of the grammar will clarify the passage. First, the preaching referred to was not done by Jesus in His own person. The text says Jesus did the preaching through the Holy Spirit: “…the Spirit, by whom…” (v. 18-19). [“My Spirit” (Genesis 6:3) = the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 2:17).]

This is a terrible use of cherry picking. So if we use his logic it was the HG that went to prison to preach. Is the HG not God, in Trinitarian thought? And still what is the point of any preaching to spirits in prison? He never says.

he did acknowledge paradise but does not tell us what it is. What is prison? What is paradise?

 

 

Mathew 5 is Jesus teaching a sermon, to the people. It is directed to the general populace. It is applicable to all. Agree with thine adversary. We could be delivered unto prison if we do not try to make things right. What do you think "whiles thou art in the way with him" means? Jesus tells us that we will not be let out of prison until the utmost farthing is paid. Before these verse each one of them deal with the judgment and hell fire. Everything he is teaching is telling us what the consequence of our actions will be and how to avoid them.

 

 

So getting back to all of this, and your article doesn't even touch on it, what prison is Jesus talking about? You still have not offered anything more than just a blatant dismissal.

 

If we don't fix (If we even do them) what Jesus spoke of in those verses we will be delivered into prison. And we won't get out until we pay the price.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Revelation is talking about Gehenna, that which is thrown into the lake of fire. 

 

According to the NT there are only two places a person goes when he dies. One good and one bad. 

 

 

An explanation of the 1 peter passage:

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

That clearly is not the case. What is prison? Is that the lake and fire? If not what is it? Clearly some go there.

[Flyonthewall]

Revelation is talking about Gehenna, that which is thrown into the lake of fire.

This is a link to a non-LDS source that says Revelation uses Sheol: http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell/Sheol_Hades.pdf

 

According to the NT there are only two places a person goes when he dies. One good and one bad.

And those 2 places are before the final judgment - Spirit Prison/Paradise

 

 

An explanation of the 1 peter passage:

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

That certainly is an explanation, but one that is forced to uphold a certain pre-conceived idea.

There is no getting away from 1 Peter 3 & 4 that States specifically that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. The link you provide contradicts it in a very contrived manner.

[JLHPROF]

So, when we take a week or so and go through each possible NT passage and look at them closely and find that there is actually not even a hint of different levels (that separate people from the Father), as the LSD claim. You somehow believe that this is all just my "interpretation" that is seeing no levels? That really, in actuality there are levels to heaven as the LDS teach, in the NT? 

 

Please tell me where I missed the boat on that? Where did I misinterpret the NT when it talked about the different levels of Heaven that separate people from the father? 

 

If there isn't anything in the NT That supports this teaching, then the LDS teaching is in opposition to that which is taught in the NT. Because the NT teaches that all who are in Heaven are with God (Father, Son, Spirit). 

 

I believe that Paul in both first and second Corinthians refers to multiple levels of heaven and the resurrection.  You misinterpret those scriptures to mean something entirely different, but modern revelation clarifies their meaning (without contradicting anything).  Just that simple.  And since we can't convince you your interpretations are wrong, we arrive back at our starting point where your acceptance of truth is limited to your established false interpretation of the New Testament, only one of 5 books of scripture that Mormons accept, and only one of probable many that actually contain the word of God.

[Flyonthewall]

An explanation of the 1 peter passage:

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=851

This link you provide is a good example of taking the scriptures and assigning a meaning that just isn't there. Not only is the meaning not there, but it is in total contradiction to what is written. In order to get there, the scriptures must be twisted and perverted.

The scripture states Jesus went to prison and preached the Gospel... that link says "no he didn't". A direct contradiction.

If you are looking for the "truth", one of the best things to do is avoid that which is in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

[coolrok7]

Flyonthe wall, I personally have no problem with what Peter says. Evangelicals were asked to answer the thread question (and the discussion goes on which I don't mind at all as it gives all of us time to give our reasons for what we believe as individuals in contrast to others). Peter says right before the spirits in prison reference with the following admonition:

 

. . .be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: . . .

 

I initially answered in post #13 without any fangs so to speak concerning Paul and Barnabas' jail experience in light of the Philippian jailer's question to them, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer was, "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . .". 

 

I have already done this in that I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead for me as well as for everyone else but only efficacious for those who choose to believe the Biblical teaching concerning Jesus Christ (as contrasted with all the other available choices the world has to offer). They're all wrong or one of them is right or true. I believe that Christianity is the only one that presents/meets the Biblical criteria of what salvation is and how one obtains it.

 

This would apply to everyone that has heard of Jesus Christ, also to those who never have heard of Jesus, based on what they knew at the time, as Jesus will be a just Judge at the Judgment Day (Romans 1 & 2 discusses this).

 

The problem presented in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith (as well as other religious groups such as Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Bahia's, etc.) is I believe that he has imported into the Biblical teaching, his own distorted views concerning Jesus the Christ.

 

His vehicle for this begins in the initial twisting of Biblical teaching followed up with his own version of the Bible and his other works accepted on par by Mormons as "Scripture" but actually is not from God but from the "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or "angel of light" (2 Corinthians 4:4) which ends up usurping specific foundational teach of the Bible. Paul in his writing indirectly addresses this in the references given.

 

As said yesterday that I would elaborate on the discussion as of late (in the idea of hell, judgment, heaven etc. in what that ultimately means in my perspective, what I believe the Bible teaches about it). More later as I have other things to do being Saturday and all.

 

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthe wall, I personally have no problem with what Peter says. Evangelicals were asked to answer the thread question (and the discussion goes on which I don't mind at all as it gives all of us time to give our reasons for what we believe as individuals in contrast to others). Peter says right before the spirits in prison reference with the following admonition:

 

 

I initially answered in post #13 without any fangs so to speak concerning Paul and Barnabas' jail experience in light of the Philippian jailer's question to them, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer was, "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . .".

Yet when Jesus was asked the same question, a list of things to do was given. Now how are the two statements reconciled... Do we reconcile Jesus' words to Paul? or do we reconcile Paul's words to Jesus. I believe we should reconcile Paul's words to Jesus.

 

I have already done this in that I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead for me as well as for everyone else but only efficacious for those who choose to believe the Biblical teaching concerning Jesus Christ (as contrasted with all the other available choices the world has to offer). They're all wrong or one of them is right or true. I believe that Christianity is the only one that presents/meets the Biblical criteria of what salvation is and how one obtains it.

 

This would apply to everyone that has heard of Jesus Christ, also to those who never have heard of Jesus, based on what they knew at the time, as Jesus will be a just Judge at the Judgment Day (Romans 1 & 2 discusses this).

 

The problem presented in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith (as well as other religious groups such as Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Bahia's, etc.) is I believe that he has imported into the Biblical teaching, his own distorted views concerning Jesus the Christ.

 

His vehicle for this begins in the initial twisting of Biblical teaching followed up with his own version of the Bible and his other works accepted on par by Mormons as "Scripture" but actually is not from God but from the "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or "angel of light" (2 Corinthians 4:4) which ends up usurping specific foundational teach of the Bible. Paul in his writing indirectly addresses this in the references given.

I get that is your belief, yet we believe your understanding is the one that has been twisted by the philosophies of men. Now who is to judge. The Bible? not a chance since the bible can be understood in many different ways. So it will require a tried and true method to understand its meaning. Now, what is the pattern that has been laid down since Adam?

 

As said yesterday that I would elaborate on the discussion as of late (in the idea of hell, judgment, heaven etc. in what that ultimately means in my perspective, what I believe the Bible teaches about it). More later as I have other things to do being Saturday and all.

It will be interesting to hear.

[Anakin7]

    And then there are a # of non LDS Christians who believe that Martin Luther and Lutheranism [Of which coolrok7 is a member of] are a non christian cult/heretical in it's doctrines/teachings. Motes and Beams/casting stones/shutting up the Kingdom of God to others comes to mind again.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[coolrok7]

And then what is that to me?

[Anakin7]

    Then we can say the same about your polemics to us - what is that to us ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7