Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Vance]

I would point out that the church father's are not the writers/did not pen Scripture so their individual views are just that.

Just like Don Matzat, and Martin Luther and John Calvin, etc. Not a prophet among them

[Vance]

So what weight should be applied to what individual Mormons here say?

At least as much as should be applied to what you or any other Evangelical or Protestant Reformer says.

[Flyonthewall]

The evidence from the NT leads to the idea that David was talking about Paradise, because Jesus said "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

David was an adulterer and murderer. Do you really think he went to paradise? David was a chosen vessel of the Lord that committed very grievous sin(s). He was happy that he would not be left in hell.

[danielwoods]

David was an adulterer and murderer. Do you really think he went to paradise? David was a chosen vessel of the Lord that committed very grievous sin(s). He was happy that he would not be left in hell.

 

 

Was David an adulterer and murderer? Of course. Did he repent? I think he did. Is in Heaven with the Father? No doubt in my mind (I understand that JS has another view).

 

 

 

What is interesting is that Jesus' linage goes through Bathsheba. What this demonstrates is the grace that God has for those who repent and want to follow him. God's grace doesn't depend on how good we are, rather on how good God is. 

[coolrok7]

Murder and adultery are forgivable sins because of Jesus' death/resurrection (followed by ones' repentance, influenced by the Holy Spirit). Ones' nature has been corrupted by sin and this nature produces the sinful acts as a natural by-product which is why all will die (with the very few exceptions mentioned).

When Jesus died, His body was put in the tomb while His sprit went elsewhere. This is the hell of Acts 2:31, the realm of dead spirits with the body being left behind. The statement referenced to King David is applied to Jesus in this context. After death there is a difference as to where they are, that is those who are awaiting the sentence of eternal punishment or to receive the gift of eternal life, whether or not they were a sheep or goat at their death (Matthew 25). God knows those who are His.

Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day which proved Who He said He was. We all will have a resurrection, all the sheep together in eternal life with God, the rest as goats to eternal punishment, eternally existing in a resurrected state in the torment of Revelation 20 (not what it means to have eternal life as in what the sheep have yet still eternal).

While I don't dispute there will be rewards as part of eternal life, being in the paradise of God (which will be in a recreated earth after its destruction by fire (2 Peter 3), I think it is the ultimate one could ask for as promised to those who believe by God.

The most weight is what Scripture says and not Mormon so-called "Scripture" which is not from God as can be demonstrated by illustrating Joseph's wrong interpretations based on the inspiration from the "god of this world" Paul identifies and John identifies as lying spirits.

A "Mormon" can be a Christian if they believe Christian doctrine, not Mormon doctrine which ultimately denies the Christian doctrine which Mormonism claims to accept as, "the word of God".

Edited October 3, 2014 by coolrok7

[Vance]

Murder and adultery are forgivable sins because of Jesus' death/resurrection (followed by ones' repentance, influenced by the Holy Spirit). Ones' nature has been corrupted by sin and this nature produces the sinful acts as a natural by-product which is why all will die (with the very few exceptions mentioned).

It doesn't surprise me anymore about how little you know your scriptures.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

David is a murderer!! Get used to it.

[Vance]

The most weight is what Scripture says and not Mormon so-called "Scripture" which  is not from God as can be demonstrated by illustrating Joseph's wrong interpretations based on the inspiration from the "god of this world" Paul identifies and John identifies as lying spirits.

There you go again with your asinine 'so-called "Scripture" '.

BTW it is your interpretation that has been proven in error more than once. You need to pull the beam out of your own eye first.

[coolrok7]

Vance, read the rest of the chapter for the proper conclusion.

[Vance]

Vance, read the rest of the chapter for the proper conclusion.

You mean like this?

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this?

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do these negate the fact that David is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life?

Edited October 3, 2014 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

David was an adulterer and murderer. Do you really think he went to paradise? David was a chosen vessel of the Lord that committed very grievous sin(s). He was happy that he would not be left in hell.

Complete dodge to the text that is in the scriptures. Daniel didn't even attempt to touch upon the points you make. Only that David was is in Heaven "no doubt". What on earth makes him think that there is no doubt about it? The scriptures teach that David soul will not be left in hell.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 No doubt in my mind (I understand that JS has another view).

 

Yes he did have another view and it lines up more with what is taught in scripture not the twisted evangelical view.

[JLHPROF]

This thread is turning a little ugly again...(and my apologies if I contributed to that).

 

Neither side is going to convince the other of anything.  We both read the New Testament and interpret the meaning of the words written differently.

We simply have different beliefs concerning God, Christ and the gospel they have given to mankind.  We both find evidence for our beliefs in the Bible.  Mormons believe they have additional information given by God.  Evangelicals reject such a possibility.

 

In the end "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

 

There's not going to be any aha moment where either side suddenly realizes they were wrong and the other right so why continue to debate minutia?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

There's not going to be any aha moment where either side suddenly realizes they were wrong and the other right so why continue to debate minutia?

Because it is fun. And I like to debate esp when I know I am right.

[danielwoods]

You mean like this?

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this?

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do these negate the fact that David is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life?

 

So is it the view of the LDS that if a person commits murder, and repents, they still will not go to Heaven? Is murder the unpardonable sin in the LDS theology? 

[danielwoods]

This thread is turning a little ugly again...(and my apologies if I contributed to that).

 

Neither side is going to convince the other of anything.  We both read the New Testament and interpret the meaning of the words written differently.

We simply have different beliefs concerning God, Christ and the gospel they have given to mankind.  We both find evidence for our beliefs in the Bible.  Mormons believe they have additional information given by God.  Evangelicals reject such a possibility.

 

In the end "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

 

There's not going to be any aha moment where either side suddenly realizes they were wrong and the other right so why continue to debate minutia?

 

There are many groups that believe the Bible is true and the word of God. None of them hold to the teachings that are unique to LDS doctrine. 

 

The difference then, between the LDS and these other groups, must be derived, not from the Bible itself, but from other sources. 

 

So, while you are claiming to find evidence for your beliefs in the Bible (which I don't doubt), they are not sourced from the Biblical text, or to put it another way, they don't come from the Bible originally. Because if they did, we'd find other groups would have come to the same conclusions as the LDS, would we not? 

Edited October 3, 2014 by danielwoods

[coolrok7]

Vance, I'm not intentionally trying to be disagreeable but do to your often, at least to me, misunderstanding of the perspective I have, it seems that you have this wall built up that I can't get through in trying to help you understand the points I'm trying to make.

I don't hate Mormons or the others that I have a strong disagreement with on the essentials.

I had in mind vs 15 of 1 John 3 that I was contrasting with King David and his having one of his soldiers killed in battle while he stayed back in the city. There to me seems to be a different context for David's repentence in light of it saying hating someone makes them a murderer in that context, I think is different Than David'sin against Uriah.

I said earlier that I was going to elaborate more on what is being discussed concerning heaven/hell etc. I get sidetracked sometimes in answering points by others.

[mfbukowski]

This thread is turning a little ugly again...(and my apologies if I contributed to that).

 

Neither side is going to convince the other of anything.  We both read the New Testament and interpret the meaning of the words written differently.

We simply have different beliefs concerning God, Christ and the gospel they have given to mankind.  We both find evidence for our beliefs in the Bible.  Mormons believe they have additional information given by God.  Evangelicals reject such a possibility.

 

In the end "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

 

There's not going to be any aha moment where either side suddenly realizes they were wrong and the other right so why continue to debate minutia?

Because that's what they always do! 

[cdowis]

Was David an adulterer and murderer? Of course. Did he repent? I think he did. Is in Heaven with the Father? No doubt in my mind (I understand that JS has another view).

 

 

 

What is interesting is that Jesus' linage goes through Bathsheba. What this demonstrates is the grace that God has for those who repent and want to follow him. God's grace doesn't depend on how good we are, rather on how good God is. 

 

After the resurrection of Christ, many of the righteous were also resurrected.  Peter made a point that David was still in the grave.  You can draw your own conclusion, but it is clear to me that David was still paying the penalty of deliberate murder.

[danielwoods]

After the resurrection of Christ, many of the righteous were also resurrected.  Peter made a point that David was still in the grave.  You can draw your own conclusion, but it is clear to me that David was still paying the penalty of deliberate murder.

 

CFR. Where does it state that many righteous were also resurrected, but David wasn't?

[JLHPROF]

CFR. Where does it state that many righteous were also resurrected, but David wasn't?

 

Really?

 

Resurrection of many righteous

 

 

Matthew 27

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

David not resurrected yet like Christ and many other saints - still waiting

Acts 2

²⁵ For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

²⁶ Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

²⁷ Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

²⁸ Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

²⁹ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

³⁰ Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

³¹ He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

³² This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

³³ Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

³⁴ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

[danielwoods]

Really?

 

Resurrection of many righteous

 

 

David not resurrected yet like Christ and many other saints - still waiting

 

Peter's point was that David was speaking about Jesus, as a prophet often does, and not himself. The passage doesn't say what is claimed above. 

[Flyonthewall]

Peter's point was that David was speaking about Jesus, as a prophet often does, and not himself. The passage doesn't say what is claimed above.

Let's see how this goes... David, a chosen person and highly favored of the Lord, commits adultery, and then murder, and then writes a psalm about how happy he is that his soul would not be left in... paradise?

If, as you have stated, we will only receive more of the same... so David will be happy to leave paradise to have more of the same?

It does not fit together.

[coolrok7]

David's remains at the time of the statement is that the body was still there, left behind at his death: James- the body without the spirit is dead.

Prophetically the point being made is that Jesus' body was only in the grave a few days and then resurrected.

Where David is, like anyone else that is forgiven, is waiting for their resurrection to eternal life, wherever that may be.

Edited October 7, 2014 by coolrok7

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Let's see how this goes... David, a chosen person and highly favored of the Lord, commits adultery, and then murder, and then writes a psalm about how happy he is that his soul would not be left in... paradise?

If, as you have stated, we will only receive more of the same... so David will be happy to leave paradise to have more of the same?

It does not fit together.

Yeah, it doesn't fit.

 

You know I have said this a few time, I just don't know why Daniel has an issue with this. It's not like he has to give up anything in his current faith to accept it.

[danielwoods]

Let's see how this goes... David, a chosen person and highly favored of the Lord, commits adultery, and then murder, and then writes a psalm about how happy he is that his soul would not be left in... paradise?

If, as you have stated, we will only receive more of the same... so David will be happy to leave paradise to have more of the same?

It does not fit together.

 

The word translated into Hell in the KJV is the word Sheol. Thus other translations say,"For You will not abandon me to Sheol; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see decay." Ps. 16:10

To the Hebrew mind this is the good side of the "place of the dead" not the bad. So read it how you will, but properly understanding something that was not originally written to you or your culture requires the reader to first understand how the original hearers understood it.