Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Anakin7]

      Calvinism/[Luther/Lutheranism indirectly] predestination critiqued by a former Calvinist response to scriptures that supposedly support predestnation and it's teachers/supporters  -    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited October 2, 2014 by Anakin7

[JLHPROF]

Maybe you've been through an experience where you "see your life flash before your eyes"? I have. It's quite an experience. It's my belief, that such an experience is similar to what happens when we die. So, while it appears that you are arguing that it's unreasonable for God to seemingly make a heaven or hell decision in such a short time. Your assumptions about time and limitations of understanding are based on human constraints that we experience now. I don't think such restraints exist in that realm. 

 

Romans 1:19 "...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

 

As it states here, people are without excuse. Plain and simple. No baptism for the dead are required. No where in the NT is it commanded, or even stated that it's needed. In fact, quite the opposite. God has it all under control. 

 

You fail to answer my question.  Over the course of history there have been many people who died never having had the opportunity to hear the gospel, let alone choose whether to accept Christ as their Savior.

You said yourself, God only judges us on what we know.

 

So IF judgement is made at the moment of death (and it's not), what does God do with those he never allowed to hear the name of Christ or his gospel during their lives?  Heaven or Hell?  The only two options right?

 

Simple question based on your own statements.  Please answer.  What judgement does God place on those who die never having the opportunity to accept Christ?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

All I can say is that Peter wasn't being very clear. I gave the 3 main interpretations of that verse.

 

 So, I don't know why Peter would refer to Paradise as spirits in prison, but it appears that he did. As you said, why would he go to the bad side or "hell" and preach? Understanding that the word preach also means to proclaim good news. 

It does? OK. Or perhaps the text means exactly what it says. Jesus went and preached unto those soles that did not have a chance to hear His words in this life so that they would have a chance there to accept Jesus and be let out of prison. That seems a much less strained interpretation. I am not sure why it is even a big deal for you to accept that.

 

Why is that such a threatening doctrine to you? You would think that understanding that God is loving to His children and provides ways for all of His children to accept or reject would be something anyone would embrace. Instead of the mysterious "God will judge" even when some dude in out Mongolia in 400 BC never even heard of Jesus. Some how he is saved. You cannot be saved in ignorance.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You fail to answer my question.  Over the course of history there have been many people who died never having had the opportunity to hear the gospel, let alone choose whether to accept Christ as their Savior.

You said yourself, God only judges us on what we know.

 

So IF judgement is made at the moment of death (and it's not), what does God do with those he never allowed to hear the name of Christ or his gospel during their lives?  Heaven or Hell?  The only two options right?

 

Simple question based on your own statements.  Please answer.  What judgement does God place on those who die never having the opportunity to accept Christ?

Excellent.

[danielwoods]

I am not arguing anything. I am pointing out in the scriptures where David states that his soul will not be left in hell. Logic dictates that for it not be left there, it has to go there first.

Here is an example of someone's soul going to hell and being released or let out. You stated if that were so, there would be other places in scripture that point that out. Here it is.

Peter stated that Jesus went to Spirit Prison and preached the Gospel.

Spirit Prison is part of hades/hell - the abode of the dead. Paradise is too. It is a temporary place until judgment.

Outer Darkness is a permanent place

 

The evidence from the NT leads to the idea that David was talking about Paradise, because Jesus said "Today you will be with me in Paradise." 

[danielwoods]

You fail to answer my question.  Over the course of history there have been many people who died never having had the opportunity to hear the gospel, let alone choose whether to accept Christ as their Savior.

You said yourself, God only judges us on what we know.

 

So IF judgement is made at the moment of death (and it's not), what does God do with those he never allowed to hear the name of Christ or his gospel during their lives?  Heaven or Hell?  The only two options right?

 

Simple question based on your own statements.  Please answer.  What judgement does God place on those who die never having the opportunity to accept Christ?

 

I did answer your question, so did Paul. 

 

Those who haven't heard about Jesus, are without excuse because they can already see God's invisible qualities from nature. 

 

Second, it's God, who knows all, judges the hearts of men based on the knowledge they have. 

[JLHPROF]

I did answer your question, so did Paul. 

 

Those who haven't heard about Jesus, are without excuse because they can already see God's invisible qualities from nature. 

 

Second, it's God, who knows all, judges the hearts of men based on the knowledge they have. 

 

No, this doesn't answer the question at all.

You say everyone is sent to heaven or hell at the time of death.

You say that only those who accept Christ go to heaven.

You say that those who go to hell never get out.

 

 

Don't give me nonsense about people should have been able to see God's invisible qualities from nature.  Believing in a God that nature evidenced isn't enough to meet your entrance requirements for heaven anyway.  Only Christians go to heaven according to the entire NT.

 

Anyone raised in a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Shintoist or whatever society, especially in the Middle Ages and VERY especially in the time before Christ would have gone their whole life and never heard a word of Christ or a Savior.

 

Under YOUR standards they would be condemned straight to hell for all eternity with no chance of escape for something they had absolutely no control or choice over.  And you know it.

 

And it is completely false doctrine.

Edited October 2, 2014 by JLHPROF

[danielwoods]

It does? OK. Or perhaps the text means exactly what it says. Jesus went and preached unto those soles that did not have a chance to hear His words in this life so that they would have a chance there to accept Jesus and be let out of prison. That seems a much less strained interpretation. I am not sure why it is even a big deal for you to accept that.

 

Why is that such a threatening doctrine to you? You would think that understanding that God is loving to His children and provides ways for all of His children to accept or reject would be something anyone would embrace. Instead of the mysterious "God will judge" even when some dude in out Mongolia in 400 BC never even heard of Jesus. Some how he is saved. You cannot be saved in ignorance.

What does 1 Peter say?

"19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."

Does it say that these souls didn't have a chance to hear about Jesus? Nope.

Does it say that they had a chance to accept Jesus and be let out of prison? Nope.

So your interpretation isn't even in the text. The question is what did Peter actually say, and what did he mean?

I have no fear and feel no threat from LDS doctrine. The question is what is true? Peter appears to be talking about those who didn't get on the ark with Noah, which according to Jewish teaching, the righteous would have gone to Paradise. It never mentioned those who haven't ever heard Jesus' words. In fact, they very well might have been aware of Jesus' work, it simply doesn't say. What it does say is that Jesus is proclaiming his victory to them, and by extension possibly sharing that victory through resurrection? It simply doesn't say. So, to make more of this text than the NT does is an error. 

[danielwoods]

No, this doesn't answer the question at all.

You say everyone is sent to heaven or hell at the time of death.

You say that only those who accept Christ go to heaven.

You say that those who go to hell never get out.

 

 

Don't give me nonsense about people should have been able to see God's invisible qualities from nature.  Believing in a God that nature evidenced isn't enough to meet your entrance requirements for heaven anyway.  Only Christians go to heaven according to the entire NT.

 

Anyone raised in a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Shintoist or whatever society, especially in the Middle Ages and VERY especially in the time before Christ would have gone their whole life and never heard a word of Christ or a Savior.

 

Under YOUR standards they would be condemned straight to hell for all eternity with no chance of escape for something they had absolutely no control or choice over.  And you know it.

 

And it is completely false doctrine.

 

Please quote for me, where I said that only those who accept Christ go to Heaven. 

 

What I have said, is that God is the judge, and that I don't know who goes and who doesn't. 

[Storm Rider]

Daniel, you are going to have to be more clear in your answers.  You have been quite clear about what allows an individual to go to heaven, but when trying to answer the question about those who never hear about Christ you equivocate.  Is a belief/acceptance of Jesus required to enter heaven or not?  More to the point, does an individual have to grasp the same Evangelical understanding of who is Jesus to enter heaven regardless of where they are in the world.  I think you have made it clear that Mormons lack this understanding and thus cannot enter heaven; does that apply to those who have never even heard about Jesus, much less gained an identical understanding of Jesus that Evangelicals maintain?

[danielwoods]

Daniel, you are going to have to be more clear in your answers.  You have been quite clear about what allows an individual to go to heaven, but when trying to answer the question about those who never hear about Christ you equivocate.  Is a belief/acceptance of Jesus required to enter heaven or not?  More to the point, does an individual have to grasp the same Evangelical understanding of who is Jesus to enter heaven regardless of where they are in the world.  I think you have made it clear that Mormons lack this understanding and thus cannot enter heaven; does that apply to those who have never even heard about Jesus, much less gained an identical understanding of Jesus that Evangelicals maintain?

 

I've actually said the opposite. I have said that I believe that many mormons are christian, and have no idea because God is judge. 

 

What is required to enter Heaven is to seek a connection or relationship with God, regardless of what a person calls it (evangelical or whatever). Even a Hindu could be doing this, I have no idea. But, God does. Having the actual words of Christ helps us help others in that quest, but nothing stops people from seeking him. As Jesus said, "seek and you shall find." 

[JLHPROF]

Please quote for me, where I said that only those who accept Christ go to Heaven. 

 

What I have said, is that God is the judge, and that I don't know who goes and who doesn't. 

 

You cannot tapdance around this.

Evangelical Christianity 101 - Christ saves those who accept him from their sins.  All others are not saved and go to hell.  Am I wrong?

 

Common Sense 101 - What about those who never get the chance in life to hear the name Christ or accept him?

[danielwoods]

You cannot tapdance around this.

Evangelical Christianity 101 - Christ saves those who accept him from their sins.  All others are not saved and go to hell.  Am I wrong?

 

Common Sense 101 - What about those who never get the chance in life to hear the name Christ or accept him?

 

You are using a very simplistic form of what Evangelicals say. 

 

And there are probably some who believe that only those who believe exactly as they do (KJV bible only) will go to Heaven, but I don't think that is a reasonable description of what most Evangelicals believe. 

 

Where does it say that we will know where everyone is going? 

[JLHPROF]

You are using a very simplistic form of what Evangelicals say. 

 

And there are probably some who believe that only those who believe exactly as they do (KJV bible only) will go to Heaven, but I don't think that is a reasonable description of what most Evangelicals believe. 

 

Where does it say that we will know where everyone is going? 

 

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

No confession of Christ, no salvation correct?

No knowledge of Christ, the gospel, or the need to confess then what?  Still no salvation?

Alternative to salvation in "standard" Christian belief?  Hell for all eternity.

 

See - this is why I could never be anything other than Mormon.  There is absolutely opportunity to accept Christ as savior and be redeemed in the next life for those who had no opportunity in this one.

 

Oh, and just for fun, how about the early Christian Bishop who taught that heaven has multiple levels based on merit - guess it's not just the Mormons, but the early Christian fathers too.

 

"A fragment from the early 2nd century of one of the lost volumes of Papias, a Christian bishop, expounds that "heaven" was separated into three distinct layers. He referred to the first as just "heaven", the second as "paradise", and the third as "the city". Papias taught that "there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce a hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold""

 

[coolrok7]

I would point out that the church father's are not the writers/did not pen Scripture so their individual views are just that.

[JLHPROF]

I would point out that the church father's are not the writers/did not pen Scripture so their individual views are just that.

 

Yes, but they are the ones who decided that trinitarianism would be the official doctrine of Christianity.  They are the ones who decided which books make the cut to be put in the Bible and which ones were to be left out.

It's just interesting that one of these founding fathers of all the modern Christianity believes in agreed with the Mormons and not the current Christian beliefs...I guess the Mormons weren't the only ones who had reason to believe in 3 heavens.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I would point out that the church father's are not the writers/did not pen Scripture so their individual views are just that.

Neither are evangelicals that live 1900 and change years latter. I would think that what they thought has more weight than say... you or Daniel.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[coolrok7]

Your General Authorities accept the sixty-six books of the Bible plus specific Mormon so-called "Scripture".

Note that it doesn't include the apocryphal writings as part of their "standard works"

[coolrok7]

So what weight should be applied to what individual Mormons here say?

[Storm Rider]

Daniel, thank you for your response. However, having grown up with Evangelicals - specifically Southern Baptists - I have been to many a revivals and heard a great number of sermons on who is and who is not saved i.e. who is going to heaven.  

 

I appreciate the nuance of belief you have and commend you for it; I suspect that it is very similar to my own in many ways.  However, I would say that most Evangelicals are not nearly as nuanced. Being saved is painted in black and white; either Jesus is the only path to heaven or he is not.  Within LDS theology there is established about how God deals with these individuals that have never heard of him, his Son, the Holy Spirit and his teachings.  This doctrine, or concept, has not been as established within Christianity as a whole.  Catholicism begans to address in Vatican II, but Protestants have been relatively mum on the topic.

[JLHPROF]

Your General Authorities accept the sixty-six books of the Bible plus specific Mormon so-called "Scripture".

Note that it doesn't include the apocryphal writings as part of their "standard works"

 

My point it that perhaps if this Bishop Pappias had a bigger congregation and more political weight that when the councils were looking over the teachings to adopt at Nicea etc perhaps orthodox Christianity today would also be preaching 3 degrees of glory.

[danielwoods]

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

No confession of Christ, no salvation correct?

No knowledge of Christ, the gospel, or the need to confess then what?  Still no salvation?

Alternative to salvation in "standard" Christian belief?  Hell for all eternity.

 

See - this is why I could never be anything other than Mormon.  There is absolutely opportunity to accept Christ as savior and be redeemed in the next life for those who had no opportunity in this one.

 

Oh, and just for fun, how about the early Christian Bishop who taught that heaven has multiple levels based on merit - guess it's not just the Mormons, but the early Christian fathers too.

 

What is it that people say around here? "Don't tell me what I believe…." 

 

I have explained that you are taking a very simplified version of what Evangelicals say, and attacking it as if all must believe that. 

 

Your belief that "There is absolutely opportunity to accept Christ as savior and be redeemed in the next life for those who had no opportunity in this one." Is similar to mine. The question then becomes why did Jesus state that until this gospel was preached to all nations he wouldn't come again? Why must the gospel be shared now, if everyone will hear it later? 

 

It's always curious what other people believed. However, it's clear that the different levels of Heaven isn't in the NT.

[danielwoods]

Daniel, thank you for your response. However, having grown up with Evangelicals - specifically Southern Baptists - I have been to many a revivals and heard a great number of sermons on who is and who is not saved i.e. who is going to heaven.  

 

I appreciate the nuance of belief you have and commend you for it; I suspect that it is very similar to my own in many ways.  However, I would say that most Evangelicals are not nearly as nuanced. Being saved is painted in black and white; either Jesus is the only path to heaven or he is not.  Within LDS theology there is established about how God deals with these individuals that have never heard of him, his Son, the Holy Spirit and his teachings.  This doctrine, or concept, has not been as established within Christianity as a whole.  Catholicism begans to address in Vatican II, but Protestants have been relatively mum on the topic.

I too have been to many revival meeting where fire and brimstone is preached, and have talked to many "KJV only" folks, and I find that many don't think too deeply about this topic. So, while I may not agree with the details of established "LDS theology" I do have a similar belief. Ultimately it is God who is drawing all people to himself. We are only here to help if we can.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

It's always curious what other people believed. However, it's clear that the different levels of Heaven isn't in the NT.

Um, only if you ignore certain passages as you have done, then it is clear. Oh well.

[Vance]

Your General Authorities accept the sixty-six books of the Bible plus specific Mormon so-called "Scripture".

They are NOT 'Mormon so-called "scripture" '!!!!! They are scripture, or LDS scripture, or even Mormon scripture.