Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

Do you believe in a literal lake of fire? I agree there is no escape, but that does not preclude being let out when the uttermost farthing has been paid.

 

Can pay? You make it sound like a bargain. Did you miss this from our scripture:

"16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—"

This might be semantics, but I don't believe it is a matter of paying for one's own sins as it is suffering for them. The price has already been paid by Jesus Christ.

Edited to add:

Psalms 16:10

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

The scriptures plainly say that those in hell will be delivered up for judgment - you explain why if judgment has already been passed.

 

Your quote of "scripture" isn't the NT. I don't know who wrote it, but it doesn't sound right. 

 

If the price has already been paid, then why the suffering? 

 

The Psalms passage is a prophetic statement about Christ. 

 

You are right, Hell will be delivered up for judgement. However, notice in the passage that nothing in there indicates that they are getting out on "good behavior" while in Hell . All that is already done with. After death the judgement. 

[teddyaware]

Your quote of "scripture" isn't the NT. I don't know who wrote it, but it doesn't sound right. 

 

If the price has already been paid, then why the suffering? 

 

The Psalms passage is a prophetic statement about Christ. 

 

You are right, Hell will be delivered up for judgement. However, notice in the passage that nothing in there indicates that they are getting out on "good behavior" while in Hell . All that is already done with. After death the judgement.

Here's the problem, Daniel. Like it or not, you are going to have very little, if any, success around here trying to convert testimony-bearing Latter-day Saints to the Evangelical plan of salvation. When compared to the Evangelical plan, the LDS plan of salvation places God in a much more positive light, powerfully demonstrating that He truly is a being of perfect justice, everlasting mercy and eternal love.

Yours is going to be a extremely steep uphill struggle as you try to get even one of the Latter-day Saints to come around to your way of thinking. After all. once one is convinced through the wonderful teachings of Mormonism that God really is a God of Love, what could cause a person so convinced to want to  believe in a God who gives up so easily on his own children, consigning them to suffer in an endless hell of unimaginable agony for no good and logical reason, other than he has the unchallengeable power to do whatever he wants to do.

One of the reasons why I was converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is because when the LDS plan of salvation was presented to me, I knew deep in my heart it was a program of salvation truly worthy of a God of perfect love -- a God of  genuine love I could unreservedly love, praise and honor without reservation or perplexity. Some seem to be perfectly comfortable worshipping a God who gives up on his children to eternal torture all too easily -- I am not one of them.

Press on in your exceedingly steep uphill climb...

Edited September 25, 2014 by teddyaware

[Flyonthewall]

Your quote of "scripture" isn't the NT. I don't know who wrote it, but it doesn't sound right.

As I stated it is our scripture... from our Doctrine & Covenants (D&C).

 

If the price has already been paid, then why the suffering?

It is a consequence of unrepented sin. Just like if I put my hand on a hot stove, the burn I get isn't my punishment for it but simply a natural consequence.

 

The Psalms passage is a prophetic statement about Christ.

The Psalms passage is about David's soul, how it will NOT be left in hell...even though he committed adultery and murder. And yes, it is because of Christ's atonement that that will happen.

 

You are right, Hell will be delivered up for judgement. However, notice in the passage that nothing in there indicates that they are getting out on "good behavior" while in Hell . All that is already done with. After death the judgement.

Nobody says they are getting out for good behavior. They get out when God determines it. It is called being "redeemed". Redemption. Part of the Atonement of Christ.

If I understand you correctly, those that are cast into "hell", are done so BEFORE their final judgment? And they are there forever and ever and will NEVER leave? Then they will be delivered from "hell" as a mere formality to be told they will be in "hell"?

[Vance]

Somebody please tell me how to respond to multiple quotes so the answers are separated - sorry, not on here often and I can't figure it out.

I will try, but it may be difficult. When I want to respond to a quote I hit the "quote" button. When I want to "break into" a quote, at that point I type in a "[" followed by "/quote]". Then I add my comment. But then to start their quote again I have to add another "[" followed by "quote]".

So, in summary, "[" followed by "quote]" begins a quote and "[" followed by "/quote]" ends a quote.

 

Vance - you're doing the same thing JLHPROF was re: the Trinity.  Sorry, a retort of "Physician heal thyself. The doctrine of the trinity is not derived from the Bible but is a post-Biblical invention" is just - weird, it makes no sense in the context of the post.

Weird or not it is the truth. The doctrine of the trinity was not developed in the Bible nor from the Bible. Many Trinitarian Bible scholars admit it.

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/trinity-biblical/

For example, where in the Bible does it teach that God is "immaterial"?

[JLHPROF]

My goal is to know the truth. I trust the Biblical text is true. The teaching of earning or paying for ones sins is contrary to the teaching of the NT. 

 

But oddly enough ancient Israel in the OT paid for sins by animal sacrifice and God considered them justified under the Old Covenant.

Agreed that Christ replaced this, but  don't state that humans can't receive justification from our sins in any other way.

The only way to pay for sins is with death.  That is the scriptural law.  Christ was able to pay for all our sins with his death because he was perfect, pure and without sin himself.

If we do not fall under the atonement (and are sent to hell) for some reason then OUR deaths are required to pay for our sins.

 

All that is required to pay for a sin is death.  THAT is the scriptural law.  That is why Christ died for us so we wouldn't have to.  That is why the symbol given for accepting Christ is Baptism - the symbolic death of the old man and rebirth/resurrection of the new man.

 

But in the end, there is more taught in Mormonism than is contained in the Bible.  If someone can ONLY accept the Bible as the ONLY word of God, then they will never agree with Mormonism, and why should we expect them to.

But since as Mormons we have been given additional information direct from God why should we ever be expected to ignore it and agree with an evangelical perspective.

Mormonism doesn't disagree with the Bible in anything really.  It just has further information to aid in the interpretation of the Bible.  The Bible is true, the evangelical interpretation is limited.  Thank the Lord for Mormonism.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

God doesn't accept Farthings as payment, only the blood of Jesus. 

Sigh,

You are just trying to justify your non belief that hell is not eternal and that people will have to suffer for unrepented sins. BTW Jesus is the one that spoke this, why the dismissal of what he spoke?

 

Further more you are digging your own theology into a lovely pit. You believe God is loving. Yet if we make mistakes which according to you, God created us to sin, and that God will leave us in a state of torture, burning in a literal lake of fire, for all of eternity if we don't accept Christ, that to you is love?

 

Do you have kids? Would you ever do that to your kids?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

My goal is to know the truth. I trust the Biblical text is true. The teaching of earning or paying for ones sins is contrary to the teaching of the NT. 

No it isn't it is prop up evangelical doctrine and to maintain it no matter what is shown to you. The really funny thing about your dogmatism, is I am not sure what is so threatening to you to acknowledge that Hell is not eternal. No major paradigm shift is required.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/trinity-biblical/

For example, where in the Bible does it teach that God is "immaterial"?

Or one substance.

 

The bible doesn't even maintain monotheism. Sure you could cherry pick a few verses, but you would have to ignore a whole lot that speak other wise.

[danielwoods]

As I stated it is our scripture... from our Doctrine & Covenants (D&C).

 

It is a consequence of unrepented sin. Just like if I put my hand on a hot stove, the burn I get isn't my punishment for it but simply a natural consequence.

 

The Psalms passage is about David's soul, how it will NOT be left in hell...even though he committed adultery and murder. And yes, it is because of Christ's atonement that that will happen.

 

Nobody says they are getting out for good behavior. They get out when God determines it. It is called being "redeemed". Redemption. Part of the Atonement of Christ.

If I understand you correctly, those that are cast into "hell", are done so BEFORE their final judgment? And they are there forever and ever and will NEVER leave? Then they will be delivered from "hell" as a mere formality to be told they will be in "hell"?

 

You are right, it doesn't say anyone gets out for good behavior. The passage in Revelation doesn't say anyone is freed from Hell. As it states, after death comes the judgement, meaning there is but one judgement, but once in hell no one leaves or is redeemed. The time for redemption is done at that point. 

 

This is why I asked you what your interpretation of the Rich ruler and Lazarus. In that passage it's clear there are only two places we go, based solely on what we do in this life. 

[JLHPROF]

You are right, it doesn't say anyone gets out for good behavior. The passage in Revelation doesn't say anyone is freed from Hell. As it states, after death comes the judgement, meaning there is but one judgement, but once in hell no one leaves or is redeemed. The time for redemption is done at that point. 

 

This is completely illogical.   It makes absolutely no sense.

If there is a judgement there is a choice being made.  The people condemned to hell will be judged after a time there.  What are the possible outcomes of that judgement.  If there is just one outcome there is no judgment to be made.

[danielwoods]

This is completely illogical.   It makes absolutely no sense.

If there is a judgement there is a choice being made.  The people condemned to hell will be judged after a time there.  What are the possible outcomes of that judgement.  If there is just one outcome there is no judgment to be made.

 

You are welcome to provide evidence in the NT supporting your view. 

[JLHPROF]

You are welcome to provide evidence in the NT supporting your view. 

 

No evidence is needed.  It's simple logic.  You cannot have a judgement if there are not two items to judge between.

If those sent to hell are judged there logic dictates that there be at least two possible outcomes, else there would be no judgement and they would just remain in hell as you state.

 

Why would there be any scripture to explain basic 1+1=2.

[danielwoods]

No evidence is needed.  It's simple logic.  You cannot have a judgement if there are not two items to judge between.

If those sent to hell are judged there logic dictates that there be at least two possible outcomes, else there would be no judgement and they would just remain in hell as you state.

 

Why would there be any scripture to explain basic 1+1=2.

 

The reference in Revelation is used to support a "second" judgement. Yet, in that scripture there is no redemption mention for them. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is completely illogical.   It makes absolutely no sense.

If there is a judgement there is a choice being made.  The people condemned to hell will be judged after a time there.  What are the possible outcomes of that judgement.  If there is just one outcome there is no judgment to be made.

IOW why judge them after being in hell? What is the point of this "final" judgment.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The reference in Revelation is used to support a "second" judgement. Yet, in that scripture there is no redemption mention for them. 

Actually it does. I already quoted Jesus saying that the utmost farthing be paid.

[coolrok7]

I think there is a point to be made concerning the Greek/Hebrew behind the terms sheol, hades, the grave, etc. They seem to be misunderstood in what is being said on the Mormons part of the answer being offered.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think there is a point to be made concerning the Greek/Hebrew behind the terms sheol, hades, the grave, etc. They seem to be misunderstood in what is being said on the Mormons part of the answer being offered.

Is it really the Mormons that mis-understand it? Sometimes death is called hell. Sometimes it is a different place. Tell me Cool, if we are misunderstanding it, tell me how the verses I quoted should be interpreted? You cannot leave prison until the utmost farthing is paid. What is prison? Is that just the grave? What is this "final judgment" spoken of in Revelations? Why have a final judgment for those that are in hell? What is the point of it? If you think we mis-understand what sheol, hades and the grave are tell me how any of what you claim would change what we are saying?

[Vance]

I think there is a point to be made concerning the Greek/Hebrew behind the terms sheol, hades, the grave, etc. They seem to be misunderstood in what is being said on the Mormons part of the answer being offered.

The misunderstanding is on the Evangelical side of the discussion.

[danielwoods]

But oddly enough ancient Israel in the OT paid for sins by animal sacrifice and God considered them justified under the Old Covenant.

Agreed that Christ replaced this, but  don't state that humans can't receive justification from our sins in any other way.

The only way to pay for sins is with death.  That is the scriptural law.  Christ was able to pay for all our sins with his death because he was perfect, pure and without sin himself.

If we do not fall under the atonement (and are sent to hell) for some reason then OUR deaths are required to pay for our sins.

 

All that is required to pay for a sin is death.  THAT is the scriptural law.  That is why Christ died for us so we wouldn't have to.  That is why the symbol given for accepting Christ is Baptism - the symbolic death of the old man and rebirth/resurrection of the new man.

 

But in the end, there is more taught in Mormonism than is contained in the Bible.  If someone can ONLY accept the Bible as the ONLY word of God, then they will never agree with Mormonism, and why should we expect them to.

But since as Mormons we have been given additional information direct from God why should we ever be expected to ignore it and agree with an evangelical perspective.

Mormonism doesn't disagree with the Bible in anything really.  It just has further information to aid in the interpretation of the Bible.  The Bible is true, the evangelical interpretation is limited.  Thank the Lord for Mormonism.

 

Our deaths do not pay for our own sin (we are unable to redeem ourselves). If it did we wouldn't need Christ. The reason it doesn't is because we are not without sin. 

 

The reason we are redeemed is because we are joined with Christ, as he died in our place. Paying a debt we couldn't pay, a debt he didn't owe.

 

My point in pursuing this line of reasoning or thread is to establish what is and is not in the NT, yet it is apart of LDS doctrine. 

 

I am curious where it might say in the NT that we can pay for our own sin? 

[Vance]

Please feel free to distinguish between, geenna,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1067&t=KJV

and hades,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G86&t=KJV

and show how we have it wrong.

[danielwoods]

Sigh,

You are just trying to justify your non belief that hell is not eternal and that people will have to suffer for unrepented sins. BTW Jesus is the one that spoke this, why the dismissal of what he spoke?

 

Further more you are digging your own theology into a lovely pit. You believe God is loving. Yet if we make mistakes which according to you, God created us to sin, and that God will leave us in a state of torture, burning in a literal lake of fire, for all of eternity if we don't accept Christ, that to you is love?

 

Do you have kids? Would you ever do that to your kids?

 

Interesting. We aren't actually sent to hell for making mistakes,but for rejecting God. Rather, those who have chosen to reject the love of God, by default choose hell. As Romans 1 states, all are without an excuse. God reveals himself to everyone. 

 

 

No it isn't it is prop up evangelical doctrine and to maintain it no matter what is shown to you. The really funny thing about your dogmatism, is I am not sure what is so threatening to you to acknowledge that Hell is not eternal. No major paradigm shift is required.

 

I actually don't care one way or another. I just want the truth. 

 

 

Actually it does. I already quoted Jesus saying that the utmost farthing be paid.

 

You honestly think that Matt. 5:26 is about paying your way out of hell? The context doesn't support that interpretation in my view. (unless God is your adversary and he accepts payment along the way?)

 

"25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

[Vance]

Our deaths do not pay for our own sin (we are unable to redeem ourselves). If it did we wouldn't need Christ. The reason it doesn't is because we are not without sin. 

 

The reason we are redeemed is because we are joined with Christ, as he died in our place. Paying a debt we couldn't pay, a debt he didn't owe.

So why is it that He was able to pay for all of us without spending eternity in Hell and yet (according to you) our spending eternity in hell is insufficient punishment for and individual?

It makes no sense.

My point in pursuing this line of reasoning or thread is to establish what is and is not in the NT, yet it is apart of LDS doctrine.

Oh please, if that is it let's talk about what the NT says about the immateriality of God.

I am curious where it might say in the NT that we can pay for our own sin?

It has been shown to you. You didn't accept it. So why are you wasting our time with further inquiry?

PS you seem to think that we are required to have the Bible as THE basis for your beliefs. Clue=> We don't. We get our doctrine the same way Paul got his.

Oh by the way did you know that the Bible seems to indicate that there are least three levels of hell?

Edited September 25, 2014 by Vance

[JLHPROF]

I actually don't care one way or another. I just want the truth. 

 

If only that were true.  Christ said that we should not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

The problem is, you think the Bible (but especially the NT) is ALL and EVERYTHING that God ever had to say on anything.  Even the Bible doesn't accept that.

Unless you are willing to accept that God still speaks to man and clarifies his will and doctrine and reveals even more you will never be able to find ALL the truth.  Why on earth would God have spoke to man for 4000 years before Christ and 100 years after Christ and then suddenly stop.  It makes no sense.

 

If you truly wanted truth you would be willing to look for it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Interesting. We aren't actually sent to hell for making mistakes,but for rejecting God. Rather, those who have chosen to reject the love of God, by default choose hell. As Romans 1 states, all are without an excuse. God reveals himself to everyone. 

 

 

 

I actually don't care one way or another. I just want the truth. 

 

 

 

You honestly think that Matt. 5:26 is about paying your way out of hell? The context doesn't support that interpretation in my view. (unless God is your adversary and he accepts payment along the way?)

 

"25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

No, we are condemned because we sin not because we didn't chose God. We are redeemed when we chose God. There is a difference. All men sin because of the fall and die, Christ is what makes us a live both spiritually and physically. Christ allows mercy to those that accept it. If those that do not qualify for mercy what happens to them?

 

So they (those who go to prison) will not get out until when? What does it say? It is so plain I cannot believe you still deny it.

 

I actually don't care one way or another. I just want the truth.

 

Then why do you deny what is in the bible? Those in prison will be let out when they pay the utmost penny.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Vance]

FYI

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

"Grave" in this verse is translated from the Greek "Hades" which is translated "hell" the other 10 times it is used in the NT.

So,

technically this verse should have been translated,

55 O death, where is thy sting? O hell, where is thy victory?

Clearly indicating that "hell" (Hades) is defeated. It has to give up its inhabitants. As in,

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Vance