Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

I stated, "Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things."

Obviously a falsehood.
1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

Hmm... I notice there is nothing in your quote about entrance to Heaven. Curious. 

 

Unless you're trying to say that entrance to Heaven is based on knowing God, like I just claimed? 

[danielwoods]

Do you know what "knowing" means in a Greco-Roman or Hebrew context?

 

By all means please expound. 

[danielwoods]

Then tell me, who is it that prophecies, drives out devils, and does many wondrous works in His name? Unbelievers? No. They are claiming to be believers because they did all those things in His name.

I am starting to understand that either you really don't know what "believers" are, or you just make it up as you go along.

 

Three things. One is they claimed to be doing these things in his name. That doesn't mean they did. Second, there are instances where people have done things in "jesus' name" but aren't actually believers. 

 

And finally, we probably disagree on what it means to be a believer in Christ. 

 

 

I responded to this: "Where do you see it reflected in the NT? (I'm specifically asking about the concept that believers won't be in direct fellowship with God 100% of the time.)".

There are scriptures that talk about being in the 3rd heaven, and divisions of glory - sun, moon, and stars, in my Father's house are many mansions - that reflect multiple kingdoms/divisions.

I see the crux of the chapter to be about works... not the works of the Mosaic law but our actions in following the commandments and doing the will of the Father.

 

 

If I understand your position correctly, you see rewards tied to fellowship. Or to put it another way, one is punished (for not having accrued enough rewards) by limiting their direct fellowship with either the Father or Christ. 

 

If this is correct, are you seeing this in Matt. 7? 

[Flyonthewall]

Three things. One is they claimed to be doing these things in his name. That doesn't mean they did. Second, there are instances where people have done things in "jesus' name" but aren't actually believers. 

 

And finally, we probably disagree on what it means to be a believer in Christ. 

 

If I understand your position correctly, you see rewards tied to fellowship. Or to put it another way, one is punished (for not having accrued enough rewards) by limiting their direct fellowship with either the Father or Christ. 

 

If this is correct, are you seeing this in Matt. 7?

My position is that we are judged by our works/actions/what we do. We do the Father's will as we understand it and because we have faith in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... and yes, following the commandments of God is doing the Father's will.

In Matthew 7

- Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them - fruits are what we do

- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. - Again, what we do

- Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: - Again, what we do

The parable of the sheep and goats show the only difference is what the sheep have done and the goats have not.

The parable of the talents show that if we DO something with what we are given we are considered good and faithful servants, but if we DO nothing we are not.

I will reiterate here that our actions do not mean anything, and by themselves will not get us anywhere, without the grace of God.

Our fellowship, as you call it, with God will be determined by the judgment of God.

I don't believe we are "punished" but do receive the natural consequences of our behavior.

[JLHPROF]

Another fun scripture: Phillippians 2:10-15

 

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

Well, these two verses make it clear that ALL will be believers, there will not be any that are not.  So who will be saved if everyone believes or is there even any such thing as an unbeliever?

 

¹² Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

¹³ For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

Apparently we have to work out our own salvation and be obedient, not just believe that Christ saves.  And God works on us to work his will too.

 

¹⁴ Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

¹⁵ That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

Apparently there are also necessary things to do to remove blame, even for a believer.

[Canadaigua]

Let me ask you, in your language/belief, what does "eternally separated from God the Father" mean?

Exactly what it says--eternally separated from God the Father.

[Anakin7]

    Once again The Must and Must nots in relation to the Before and After Entering The Kingdom of God according  to some Evangelical Christians -    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm

 

in His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       Some spiritual gum to chew on -    http://14lds.com/rome.htm

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[danielwoods]

My position is that we are judged by our works/actions/what we do. We do the Father's will as we understand it and because we have faith in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... and yes, following the commandments of God is doing the Father's will.

In Matthew 7

- Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them - fruits are what we do

- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. - Again, what we do

- Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: - Again, what we do

The parable of the sheep and goats show the only difference is what the sheep have done and the goats have not.

The parable of the talents show that if we DO something with what we are given we are considered good and faithful servants, but if we DO nothing we are not.

I will reiterate here that our actions do not mean anything, and by themselves will not get us anywhere, without the grace of God.

Our fellowship, as you call it, with God will be determined by the judgment of God.

I don't believe we are "punished" but do receive the natural consequences of our behavior.

 

I appreciate the dialogue, but I still don't see the LDS idea of different kingdoms which indicates a separation from God (at some levels) in the NT. 

 

I do see different rewards based on believers good actions or not, but separation from God is always an indicator of sin in the Biblical contexts.  

[Canadaigua]

Why does God give commandments if He doesn't want us to obey them?

God would love for all of us to obey all of the commandments but the question is does man have the ability to keep the commandments.  Some LDS say that they do have this ability yet others seem to disagree.  This is a good topic and I will start a new thread on this.

[Flyonthewall]

I appreciate the dialogue, but I still don't see the LDS idea of different kingdoms which indicates a separation from God (at some levels) in the NT. 

 

I do see different rewards based on believers good actions or not, but separation from God is always an indicator of sin in the Biblical contexts.

Can you tell me what rewards there are? In your realm of belief, if all are in the presence of the Father, then what more reward is there?

[Flyonthewall]

Exactly what it says--eternally separated from God the Father.

Okay, let me re-phrase - is separation from God the Father hell? or can one still be in His glory without being in His presence?

[Vance]

James 2:¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

Where in this verse does it say that works contribute for salvation?

Where in that verse does is say that they don't?

[Vance]

No they are completely different.  You say "the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory" yet those in the two lower kingdoms are eternally separated from God the Father.  

So?

They are still in the presence of the Son and the Spirit. Do they not qualify as God?

[Vance]

So would you say that perfect obedience to the commandments is the requirement for exaltation?

Define what you mean by "perfect". Is it the Biblical definition or the Modern American Protestant Evangelical Anti-Mormon definition? Edited September 19, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

<snip>

Here is a clue for you. When Paul uses "works of the law", he means the law of Moses not the law of Christ. It is clear from several verses that "the law of Moses" doesn't provide salvation. It is only through obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ do we receive eternal life.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

• • •

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (of Moses), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law (of Moses): for by the works of the law (of Moses) shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works (of righteous obedience), when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[danielwoods]

Can you tell me what rewards there are? In your realm of belief, if all are in the presence of the Father, then what more reward is there?

 

There are hints or indications of what the rewards are, however, none of them state that a person won't be in Heaven as a result of lack of rewards. Jesus even stated that some will be "least" and some will be "great" in the kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 5:19). However, I can't think of one instance where the lack of reward reduced a person to separation from God. 

 

Here's a link to a description of rewards that are pretty close to what I believe. 

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/gillette/bg21.html

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So would you say that perfect obedience to the commandments is the requirement for exaltation?

Yes, but that generally only happens after this life. And the only way that happens is through Christ, through the Atonement.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Actually it doesn't mention what they believed. Rather than Jesus never knew them. Clear indication they weren't believers in Jesus. 

 

Why would a non-beleiver cast out demons? Because the Name of Jesus has power, and it works. Haven't you heard about Seven sons of Sceva, who weren't believers but were casting out demons? Or the guy who wanted to pay Peter for the power he possessed? 

 

The difference between a believer and an non-believer is who they live for. Believers live for Christ, non-believers live for themselves. It doesn't matter what they "do" on the outside to justify themselves, these evil-doers are not living for Christ. They only do things for themselves. Just like Jesus said about the Pharisees, who pray loudly and have received their reward already. So, while they may claim to be believers they are not truly, and only they and Christ know that. They might be leaders of large churches, or serve and give money, etc. etc... It all doesn't matter if they are simply living for themselves. 

Ill play your game the way you are playing it and see how convinced you are. That verse never says they are unbelievers. Were do you get the idea they are unbelievers?

 

 

Further more you examples are irrelevant. Not every one that Says "Jesus Save me" is going to be saved, only those that actually do the will of the Father. That is the part you keep missing. Only those that "do" the will are save, those that just perform a mental exercise and accept Jesus into their heart, they will not be saved. More is required. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Exactly what it says--eternally separated from God the Father.

Oh thanks, I am ready to join, thanks so much for clarifying, that totally helps.

[Vance]

I stated, "Two, entrance to heaven is based on knowing him, not doing things."

Obviously a falsehood.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Hmm... I notice there is nothing in your quote about entrance to Heaven. Curious. 

 

Unless you're trying to say that entrance to Heaven is based on knowing God, like I just claimed?

Simple logic, which apparently is beyond you.

Obedience to commandments => knowing God.

Knowing God => eternal life

Take a look at the first quote in my signature line.

[danielwoods]

Ill play your game the way you are playing it and see how convinced you are. That verse never says they are unbelievers. Were do you get the idea they are unbelievers?

 

As I mentioned before, the statement from Jesus, "I never knew you." Indicates they weren't believers (or more specifically they didn't have eternal life, they didn't have a relationship with Christ directly). 

 

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"

[Vance]

God would love for all of us to obey all of the commandments but the question is does man have the ability to keep the commandments.  Some LDS say that they do have this ability yet others seem to disagree.  This is a good topic and I will start a new thread on this.

Paul taught that we could. Is this going to be one of those "it doesn't mean what is says, because I don't believe it" things? Again?

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

[Vance]

As I mentioned before, the statement from Jesus, "I never knew you." Indicates they weren't believers (or more specifically they didn't have eternal life, they didn't have a relationship with Christ directly). 

 

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"

By the same token, where in there does it say that all "believers" know him and are his sheep? Edited September 19, 2014 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I mentioned before, the statement from Jesus, "I never knew you." Indicates they weren't believers (or more specifically they didn't have eternal life, they didn't have a relationship with Christ directly). 

 

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"

Not it doesn't that is only that Christ didn't know them. Lots of people might know who you are but you don't know them so that would mean they don't know who you are? That is essentially what you are saying.

 

Yeah those sheep as per Mathew 25 are those that actually do things. What did the sheep do that the goats didn't do? Those that did not visit Christ in jail and feed the hungry are the goats they are not saved.

 

Note in John that there is a 2 way knowing that is going on. That is missing that other verse. Where only Christ says he doesn't know them. They clearly believed who Jesus was. And you still are neglecting that only those that "do the will" are saved. Not just perform a mental exercise.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram