Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Another falsehood. This one is so easy. The ONLY verse in the Bible that says "put on Christ" is this one.

Gal 3:17 For as many of you as HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO Christ have put on Christ.

It is Baptism.

That doesn't really mean that, you just need context.

 

 

See how easy that was to dismiss what you just wrote. Just assert that you ripped it from context.

 

I swear that is all they teach the evangelical community to do against LDS.

 

Mod - Please don't use a pejorative to refer to a religion.

 

In this session of "How to witness to a Mormon 101",

Step one, just assert that they ripped what ever they say out of context.

Step two, just continue to assert that they ripped it from context.

Step three, move the goal posts.

Step four, change the subject.

 

 

fixed to remove pejorative, though I didn't not use it in that matter nor did I mean it as a bad thing.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What is this off topic and totally irreverent babbling?

Dunno probably thought you were talking about global warming. Ha.

[MormonFreeThinker]

What is this off topic and totally irreverent babbling?

 

I am just simply saying, next time please quote Christians and real scientists. Please show Christian honesty. 

You quoted Tim Ball, remember? You said Tim Ball is a scientist, and he claims to be a scientist, but he never was, he was a geography professor. 

 

Do not question another poster's honesty over misunderstanding or disagreement.

 

[There is too much snark in this thread from all sides.]

[Vance]

All doesn't always mean all. If we are talking about all Men, or all Women, or all Children or All boats or something, then the category is limited by the context. 

 

In 2 Cor. 5 the context limits the "all" to just believers.

"All doesn't always mean all."

Wow, just wow. You may have a valid point.

Matt 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and ALL Jerusalem with him.

4 And when he had gathered ALL the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

• • •

16 ¶ Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in ALL the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

It makes sense that "(a)ll doesn't always mean all" in those verses.

So, now that we have established that, let's look at some other uses.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

WOW!!!! Daniel you have now proven that "Creatio ex nihilo" is not found in the Bible.

[danielwoods]

John 5:24 NIRV

"What I'm about to tell you is true. Anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He will not be found guilty. He has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 NIV

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 NLT

"I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 5:24 MSG

"It's urgent that you listen carefully to this: Anyone here who believes what I am saying right now and aligns himself with the Father, who has in fact put me in charge, has at this very moment the real, lasting life and is no longer condemned to be an outsider. This person has taken a giant step from the world of the dead to the world of the living

John 5:24 WBT

Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.

John 5:24 TMB

Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 WYC

Truly, truly, I say to you, that he that heareth my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and he cometh not into doom, but passeth from death into life [hath everlasting life, and cometh not into doom, but passed from death into life].

Your conclusion is not valid. It is not that they are not judged, but rather they are not found worthy of punishment.

My conclusion is that we as believers are saved by Grace. Christ did it all. According to these scriptures you quoted, this is true. We are not held accountable for our sin, because Christ took it the punishment for us, Praise God!

 

Thus supporting what I said above.

You failed to notice all of the IFs in there.

Another falsehood. This one is so easy. The ONLY verse in the Bible that says "put on Christ" is this one.

Gal 3:17 For as many of you as HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO Christ have put on Christ.

It is Baptism.

 

Baptized into Christ is equal to having "put on Christ" yes, which is the same as being "in Christ" or having his Spirit inside of us. All are used interchangeably.

 

The "if's" don't change the meaning. Only a qualifier. 

 

 

I have demonstrated that there are three heavens and three glories. That is all that is necessary.

Quibbling over the semantics of "heavens/glories" versus "kingdoms" is just that, quibbling.

 

There could be three heavens or more, the point is the NT doesn't support the idea that anyone will be separated from the Father (and the Son and the Spirit) in any Heaven! 

 

 

Obviously you are operating under the delusion that I have to have language in the Bible to support all of my beliefs. We do not subscribe to the false doctrine known as "sola scriptura".

Nope. I am not under that delusion at all. In fact, I agree with you that the NT doesn't support your beliefs in this area.

[Tacenda]

Just a thought and question. 

 

Thought:  I think the LDS church helps keep people active by giving callings.  And by having the temple provide the only means to having eternal salvation with their family intact.

 

Question:  danielwoods, does your religion help you stay active by calling you to volunteer and does it provide a way for eternal salvation based on what you do?  Does Sunday worship help lead to a relationship with Christ?  Do you think activity like this helps you have that?  And without the relationship with Christ are you doomed?  Answer if you want. 

[Vance]

Baptized into Christ is equal to having "put on Christ" yes,

So far so good. But now you are going to add to the scripture something that isn't there.

. . . which is the same as being "in Christ" or having his Spirit inside of us.

Not the same at all.

All are used interchangeably.

Nope! It is not. It is only used once and it is directly associated with baptism.

The "if's" don't change the meaning. Only a qualifier.

And that qualifier defeats your argument.

Paul is writing to the saints in Rome. All saints have been baptized thus "putting on Christ", HOWEVER, not all saints have Christ(or the Spirit) in them, thus the IF.

So, NO they are not the same nor are they used interchangeably.

 

There could be three heavens or more, the point is the NT doesn't support the idea that anyone will be separated from the Father (and the Son and the Spirit) in any Heaven!

Nor does it specify otherwise. It does tell us that there at least three heavens. We do know that there are three members of the Godhead. We also know that there are three different glories in the resurrection. So clearly "sola scripturists" will be clueless about any additional details regarding the heavens.

THANK GOD for the restoration and modern revelation. 

Nope. I am not under that delusion at all. In fact, I agree with you that the NT doesn't support your beliefs in this area.

WRONG!!!! Again!

It does support our beliefs in this area, it just doesn't provide details.

Details that "sola scripturists" WILL NEVER KNOW, because they reject the possibility of any further revelation on the topic.

Thanks for pointing out another reason for the restoration.

[danielwoods]

Just a thought and question. 

 

Thought:  I think the LDS church helps keep people active by giving callings.  And by having the temple provide the only means to having eternal salvation with their family intact.

 

Question:  danielwoods, does your religion help you stay active by calling you to volunteer and does it provide a way for eternal salvation based on what you do?  Does Sunday worship help lead to a relationship with Christ?  Do you think activity like this helps you have that?  And without the relationship with Christ are you doomed?  Answer if you want. 

 

Being apart of my church does help me stay active, and they do ask me (us) to volunteer quite a bit. 

 

Does it provide a way for eternal salvation based on what I do? No. Nothing I do adds to my salvation, and nothing I don't do, takes it away. Christ paid for it not me. As the scriptures states if our hearts condemn us, Thanks be to God, because he is greater than our hearts. (1 John 3:20)

It's similar to asking if your children did more around the house would that add to their status as your children? 

 

Does Sunday worship help lead to a relationship with Christ? I Think so. I think that when our spirit connects with God there is a supernatural thing that happens, which often times I feel happens during worship, and other times as well. 

 

Activity like this? (I'm not sure what you are referring to here?)

 

Without a relationship with Christ, yes I believe in Hell as described by Christ would be my eternity. 

[LittleNipper]

ALL  who believe are saved. Those who do not believe are NOT SAVED. For GOD so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Whosoever believeth is a stipulation and not ALL inclusive. The blessing is confined only to all who believe and not everyone.

[danielwoods]

So far so good. But now you are going to add to the scripture something that isn't there.

Not the same at all.

Nope! It is not. It is only used once and it is directly associated with baptism.

And that qualifier defeats your argument.

Paul is writing to the saints in Rome. All saints have been baptized thus "putting on Christ", HOWEVER, not all saints have Christ(or the Spirit) in them, thus the IF.

So, NO they are not the same nor are they used interchangeably.

 

Nor does it specify otherwise. It does tell us that there at least three heavens. We do know that there are three members of the Godhead. We also know that there are three different glories in the resurrection. So clearly "sola scripturists" will be clueless about any additional details regarding the heavens.

THANK GOD for the restoration and modern revelation. 

WRONG!!!! Again!

It does support our beliefs in this area, it just doesn't provide details.

Details that "sola scripturists" WILL NEVER KNOW, because they reject the possibility of any further revelation on the topic.

Thanks for pointing out another reason for the restoration.

 

Paul uses "In Christ" "Putting on Christ" interchangeably, not that it matters though. I am really unclear why you would want to disagree with that. 

 

In Romans 8, Paul is using a qualifier simply to clarify. I agree with you that it's written to Saints, and it matters not what someone calls themselves, "Saints" or what have you. What matters is whether  or not they have the Spirit inside. 

 

No where is there any teaching in the NT that states that some believers won't be with all of God (Father, Son, Spirit). As Jesus plainly states, in John 17:23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

 

Or John 14:20 "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

and

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

 

 

The idea that the Father will not be where the Son and the Spirit are is completely counter to the teaching of Jesus as found in the NT. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

ALL  who believe are saved. Those who do not believe are NOT SAVED. For GOD so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Whosoever believeth is a stipulation and not ALL inclusive. The blessing is confined only to all who believe and not everyone.

What does "believe" entail? A mere mental exercise? That seems to be what you are saying. Or is more required like a living faith as spoken of by James?

[Vance]

Paul uses "In Christ" "Putting on Christ" interchangeably, not that it matters though. I am really unclear why you would want to disagree with that.

No, Paul does not use them interchangeably. He uses "put on Christ" only once and specifically in reference to being baptized, with is clearly not the same as having the Spirit or Christ in you. 

 

In Romans 8, Paul is using a qualifier simply to clarify. I agree with you that it's written to Saints, and it matters not what someone calls themselves, "Saints" or what have you. What matters is whether  or not they have the Spirit inside.

Paul is writing to the Saints (Baptized members of the Church) in Rome. Nearly all of his letters are to address short comings in doctrinal understanding or actions of the saints. To argue that Paul is addressing unbelievers is to claim that one can be an unbeliever and also a saint, which makes no sense. But I am used to seeing a lot of senselessness when EVs are arguing against Mormons. 

 

No where is there any teaching in the NT that states that some believers won't be with all of God (Father, Son, Spirit).

So, the believing devils must end up with God then.

This also presents another conundrum for Trinitarians. If God is one being and is also Omni-present then EVERYONE is in the presents of the Father all of the time.

As Jesus plainly states, in John 17:23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Or John 14:20 "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

and

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

All very nice. But that doesn't support your argument here.

 

The idea that the Father will not be where the Son and the Spirit are is completely counter to the teaching of Jesus as found in the NT.

Again, you are going to have to address the issue I raised above.

If God is Trinitarian, explain how anyone is EVER separated from the Father.

[Flyonthewall]

Right. So in your system not all believers will be with the Father. I can't find anything like that in the NT. In the NT, Jesus states that the Father is in him, and he is in us. No separation for any believers.

1 Corinthians 15:41 describes the resurrection and how everyone will be resurrected to different glories - one likened to the sun, one likened to the moon, and one likened to the stars..."for one star differeth from another star in glory.". How many different glories does that make up? Sounds like there will be a lot of different states/glories of resurrection.

As I stated before, your concept is not as refined as ours.

[Flyonthewall]

ALL  who believe are saved. Those who do not believe are NOT SAVED. For GOD so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Whosoever believeth is a stipulation and not ALL inclusive. The blessing is confined only to all who believe and not everyone.

How does this fit in with your post above: "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

All shall be made alive in Christ - no qualifiers.

[Flyonthewall]

Look, I believe we agree on the main points - We both believe in God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We both believe Jesus lived, died, was raised from the dead in 3 days and ascended to heaven. We both believe in the Final Judgment.

We see there are differences in our beliefs too, but embrace you as fellow Christians.

You see there are differences in our beliefs, and reject that we even believe in the same God.

Mark 9:38-40

Luke 9:49-50

Now I ask you, WWJD?

[LittleNipper]

Everyone is given eternal life; however, believers will live a life with GOD and non believers will live in eternal separation. 

[Flyonthewall]

Everyone is given eternal life; however, believers will live a life with GOD and non believers will live in eternal separation.

Now you are contradicting other Evangelicals that define Eternal Life as living forever with God.

It sure seems there is as much difference in belief within the Evangelical community as there is between LDS and Evangelicals

[LittleNipper]

Evangelicals believe that the saved go to eternal glory and the unsaved go to eternal damnation. I don't know what could be clearer. Eternal joy or eternal torment. Alive in Christ or dead to God. See Rev. Billy Graham! You cannot get more evangelical than that. The Bible says more about hell than heaven. But remember --- Mormons disagree about polygamy ---- which would seem rather trivial by comparison.

Edited September 15, 2014 by LittleNipper

[Flyonthewall]

Evangelicals believe that the saved go to eternal glory and the unsaved go to eternal damnation. I don't know what could be clearer. Eternal joy or eternal torment. Alive in Christ or dead to God. See Rev. Billy Graham! You cannot get more evangelical than that. The Bible says more about hell than heaven. But remember --- Mormons disagree about polygamy ---- which would seem rather trivial by comparison.

LDS also believe that the "saved" go to eternal glory - all will dwell in a kingdom of Glory. The "unsaved" will not.

Now what?

[LittleNipper]

I think you are making yourself unclear. It sounds like you believe all are going to heaven and then you say some are not. Christ clearly is very point blank. ALL who believe in Him will be saved and those who do not believe on him will be cast into utter darkness.  If that is what Mormons believe then we are both on the same page; however, I do not believe that is what Mormons are taught.

[JLHPROF]

I think you are making yourself unclear. It sounds like you believe all are going to heaven and then you say some are not. Christ clearly is very point blank. ALL who believe in Him will be saved and those who do not believe on him will be cast into utter darkness.  If that is what Mormons believe then we are both on the same page; however, I do not believe that is what Mormons are taught.

 

And Christ is equally clear - those who believe on his name will keep his father's commandments.  All of them.  Works.

Those that don't keep the commandments don't believe.

[LittleNipper]

And Christ also said if one breaks even one commandment, he has broken THEM ALL! So, you have broken just as many as I have! Exactly how does that make you any better?

Edited September 16, 2014 by LittleNipper

[JLHPROF]

And Christ also said if one breaks even one commandment, he has broken THEM ALL! So, you have broken just as many as I have! Exactly how does that make you any better?

 

Who said I was better.  I am simply saying that claiming you believe in Christ doesn't get you saved because it doesn't mean anything.  Even the devils believe.  Christ said only those who keep the commandments believe/love him.  No works, no belief.

[LittleNipper]

You may wish to consider Matthew 7:22-24.  No one is suggesting that Christians are to do evil things to prove that they are saved by grace. However, Christians are suggesting that a saved person will do things, not from the perspective of earning salvation but with a spirit filled heart to be a profitable witness of the GOSPEL message. That message concerns what Christ did on the cross and upon His resurrection and not about proving the validity of some "other" testament.

[Flyonthewall]

I think you are making yourself unclear. It sounds like you believe all are going to heaven and then you say some are not. Christ clearly is very point blank. ALL who believe in Him will be saved and those who do not believe on him will be cast into utter darkness.  If that is what Mormons believe then we are both on the same page; however, I do not believe that is what Mormons are taught.

Okay, let me try to make it clearer... everyone who is "saved" will dwell in a kingdom of glory. All those that are not "saved" will be cast into outer darkness. That is what LDS are taught and teach.