Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[ERayR]

Can Mormons say that they know everything about God? This is the reality , that  only God fully understands God. We can only seek God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Can you.

 

The answer is not yet.

[LittleNipper]

When a person is saved the witness is the fruit of the Spirit.  God does the work through the saved individual. The person who is unsaved may think that what he does makes him righteous. The saved individual will often see that what he tries to do is never correct or enough. It is God who works through weakness.

[JLHPROF]

Can Mormons say that they know everything about God? This is the reality , that  only God fully understands God. We can only seek God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Can you.

 

The answer is not yet.

 

And yet we have to if we expect eternal life - For this is life eternal, to KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent.

[Canadaigua]

In hopes that it will answer my questions, let's discuss. Your turn.

Sure.  You brought up Matthew 19 to support your belief that works are required for exaltation.  I have already stated that there are dozens of passages that clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and our works do not contribute to our salvation.  This is a perfect example of how your gospel and my gospel are completely opposite of each other.  So lets take a look at the verses in Matthew 19 and see if they really support your position OR is it possible that Christ was trying to send a different message than the one that you assume that he is sending.  I will also include the parallel passage in Mark.

 

Matthew 19 

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”

17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

Mark 10

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’ ”

20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”

21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

The first thing that jumps out from these verses is that the man does not refer to Jesus as Lord, rather he sees him as simply a "teacher".  Jesus then replies “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.  Christ's response here is extremely important for a few reasons.  I am sure that you would agree that Christ is perfect so certainly Christ is "good".  So why did Christ say this to this guy?  I think that he was trying to point out to him that he is God and that this guy didn't seem to catch that.  Let's start with this before moving on to another important point with this verse.

[LittleNipper]

The believer does not expect eternal life because he knows everything about God. He is provided with eternal life because he placed his faith in Christ.to save him.

[ERayR]

The believer does not expect eternal life because he knows everything about God. He is provided with eternal life because he placed his faith in Christ.to save him.

 

Nobody said differently. 

[danielwoods]

So based upon your last sentence, specifically, "...he doesn't count our sins against us,..."  Being a Christian would then mean that there is no judgment because there is nothing to judge because a Christian's sins are all forgiven.  

 

I disagree with such a position.  A Christian is forgiven through repentance.  The ordinance of baptism wipes all sins away at that time, but then we must still repent of sins.  A Christian can still sin, but as we hope to grow in Christ our desire to follow him and emulate his examples is magnified just as our desire to sin is made less appealing.

 

Faith without works is dead; faith is active; it demands action.  When those actions do not exist then surely the scripture is true and that faith is a dead faith.

 

In the NT there is a difference between sin and living a life of sin. There is a difference between one who has repented already, and one who hasn't. One who has all their sin (past, present, and future) forgiven, and one hasn't. 

 

For the christian believer, their desire is to please God, which means that sin (as described in the NT) is that which falls short of that goal. The struggle as described by paul in Romans 7:22 "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

 

So, it's God himself who delivers us from this, not repentance, rather it's his resurrection power that literally lives in us by his spirit now, basically our connection to him. 

 

For the people who live a life of sin, they don't have this desire to please God, nor power to do so. It is those who need to repent, and turn from their wicked ways. 

 

You are correct, that there is nothing to judge, which is why John stated, "19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God." (1 Jn. 3:19-21).

 

Now I understand we disagree on this. So I am not saying,  that a person who is tormented by the teaching that they need to recall and repent of every sin is not a christian. Not at all. I just think that it's an error that doesn't edify that believer. In essence, being connected to God through Christ is the greatest relief of all. No more worrying about trying to remember every sin. Nope. IT's all his. We "cast our cares on him because he cares for us." In essence, our hearts are his. If it weren't so, he would tell us and we'd make it right. Being connected to Christ isn't about adding more burdens on our hearts, but walking in the Spirit, where he helps us carry what he wants us to carry. 

[ERayR]

 

In the NT there is a difference between sin and living a life of sin. There is a difference between one who has repented already, and one who hasn't. One who has all their sin (past, present, and future) forgiven, and one hasn't. 

 

For the christian believer, their desire is to please God, which means that sin (as described in the NT) is that which falls short of that goal. The struggle as described by paul in Romans 7:22 "For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

 

So, it's God himself who delivers us from this, not repentance, rather it's his resurrection power that literally lives in us by his spirit now, basically our connection to him. 

 

For the people who live a life of sin, they don't have this desire to please God, nor power to do so. It is those who need to repent, and turn from their wicked ways. 

 

You are correct, that there is nothing to judge, which is why John stated, "19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God." (1 Jn. 3:19-21).

 

Now I understand we disagree on this. So I am not saying,  that a person who is tormented by the teaching that they need to recall and repent of every sin is not a christian. Not at all. I just think that it's an error that doesn't edify that believer. In essence, being connected to God through Christ is the greatest relief of all. No more worrying about trying to remember every sin. Nope. IT's all his. We "cast our cares on him because he cares for us." In essence, our hearts are his. If it weren't so, he would tell us and we'd make it right. Being connected to Christ isn't about adding more burdens on our hearts, but walking in the Spirit, where he helps us carry what he wants us to carry. 

 

Is the act of repentance a works?

[Canadaigua]

The believer does not expect eternal life because he knows everything about God. He is provided with eternal life because he placed his faith in Christ.to save him.

Nobody knows "everything about God".  But we do know a lot about God from the Bible and the key here is to not change the things that we do know about Him into a different God.

[Vance]

I am sure that you would agree that Christ is perfect so certainly Christ is "good".

AT THE TIME Jesus was without sin BUT, according to Him, perfection was still to be obtained. For He said,

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and THE THIRD DAY I SHALL BE PERFECTED.

Obviously, referring to His resurrection.

 

So why did Christ say this to this guy?

Because the man was being insincere in his use of the word "good" and Jesus turned it back on him.

 

I think that he was trying to point out to him that he is God and that this guy didn't seem to catch that.  Let's start with this before moving on to another important point with this verse.

Why should we start with what you "think" is going on here? There are other reasonable interpretations.

BTW

NONE of what you have said negates the statement, "If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Edited September 12, 2014 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, if one believes in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit-----then because there is ONE GOD, that Lord God must be Triune!

Define Truine.

 

And no If there is One God, there is nothing in the bible that dictates monotheism.

[Vance]

I have already stated that there are dozens of passages that clearly teach that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and our works do not contribute to our salvation.

False dichotomy. Faith without works it dead.

To have true faith in Christ you not only believe that He existed but you believe AND FOLLOW what He taught.

This is a perfect example of how your gospel and my gospel are completely opposite of each other.

Yes, we have the true and complete gospel of Jesus Christ. You have an adulterated version of Paul's "gospel".

You guys have the cart before the cart. You need to set the teachings of Jesus in preeminence and then reconcile what Paul wrote to them.

You shouldn't set a few (misunderstood verses) of Paul in the preeminent position.

[Vance]

Nobody knows "everything about God".  But we do know a lot about God from the Bible and the key here is to not change the things that we do know about Him into a different God.

I agree.

The changing of the Biblical God into some Hellenized version, known as the Trinity, was and is a total travesty.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

When a person is saved the witness is the fruit of the Spirit.  God does the work through the saved individual. The person who is unsaved may think that what he does makes him righteous. The saved individual will often see that what he tries to do is never correct or enough. It is God who works through weakness.

Reminds me of those bible tracts that I saw a lot of in WV, where there is a person driving down the road and when they confess Jesus he jumps in the car and does a 180 and from then on out is driving the car for the person.

 

I am sorry, but real life does not work like this and neither does the Gospel. My works don't make me righteous any more than claiming I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and then sitting on butt. What it takes is faith and works. You know that novel concept taught in James? You really cannot have one with out the other. I  and you are made righteous the second we act on our faith.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Vance]

More stuff Jesus taught that Evangelicals ignore.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jesus clearly and plainly that we should LABOR for the meat which leads to EVERLASTING LIFE.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How could it be any clearer? They that have DONE GOOD get the resurrection of eternal life.

Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Taking up your cross and following Jesus IS WORK.

Luke 10:

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, GO, AND DO thou likewise.

A clear commandment to do good works, GO AND DO thou likewise.

More of Jesus teaching good works,

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36 And HE THAT REAPETH RECEIVETH WAGES, AND GATHERETH FRUIT UNTO LIFE ETERNAL: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Doesn't get more clear than that. Now you have to reconcile Paul's words to these words of Jesus which are preeminent.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

WOW!!! I guess obeying God's commandments ARE important when it comes to EVERLASTING LIFE!!

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE.

Hey, REPENTANCE is a work isn't it?

How many more are needed to make the point?

[danielwoods]

Is the act of repentance a works?

 

Not in the sense of the NT "works". It's a change of attitude. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not in the sense of the NT "works". It's a change of attitude. 

Right, and that change requires nothing of us, huh? It just happens all on it's own.

[danielwoods]

Right, and that change requires nothing of us, huh? It just happens all on it's own.

 

Loaded questions like this make me leery. 

 

Of course we agree that repentance doesn't occur in a vacuum, there is always a context. But, ultimitely repentance is simply changing one's mind, the actions that follow are a response to the grace and love of God in our hearts when we understand what was done for us. 

[ERayR]

Not in the sense of the NT "works". It's a change of attitude. 

 

To repent one has to change his/her behavior.  Changing behavior is works.

[Anakin7]

       I found this link from my LDS Kryptonian Jedi Archive Produced from a non LDS  - http://www.hornes.org/theologia/rich-lusk/future-justification-to-the-doers-of-the-law

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

LDS Kryptonian Jedi

Edited September 12, 2014 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

To repent one has to change his/her behavior.  Changing behavior is works.

 

As it is used in the NT: "change of mind or heart, repentance, regret"

 

http://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/gwview.cgi?n=3341

[Anakin7]

       A change of Heart and mind is done by the personal individual doing the Repenting, clearly a work of the Heart and mind from within that makes an individual more in line with the true teaching of our LORD. Unless you are a proto Calvinest then it is pre destined.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

LDS Kryptonian Jedi

Edited September 12, 2014 by Anakin7

[Garden Girl]

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  I did not read all of this thread (34 pages!) and I'm sure someone else probably gave the above quotes so I'm sorry if I have been redundant...

Edited September 12, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

1.Loaded questions like this make me leery. 

 

2.Of course we agree that repentance doesn't occur in a vacuum, there is always a context. But, ultimitely repentance is simply changing one's mind, the actions that follow are a response to the grace and love of God in our hearts when we understand what was done for us. 

1.Sorry this is not a loaded question. I did not ask you if you stopped beating your wife. I am using your logic to show that you have not thought this out.

 

 

2.So you would say that this is not a work, how? It clearly doesn't happen on it's own and that real effort is required on our part.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Does no one consider Revelation 20:12 and 13??

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  I did not read all of this thread (34 pages!) and I'm sure someone else probably gave the above quotes so I'm sorry if I have been redundant...

Great point, it does not say "according to their faith".