Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Vance]

  And the simple answer is because the basis for Evangelical beliefs is from the Bible.

That is what they claim.  It would be more accurate to say that the basis for Evangelical beliefs is from the mis-interpretation of a small portion of the Bible.  The rest of the Bible they ignore.

[Vance]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a council of gods created the earth.  

 

Can you give me the verses that speak about these "council of gods"?  (I assume that you will include Psalm 82)

If you make that assumption then you have already heard about the concept of divine council.

 

And google is thy friend.

 

 

The Book of Psalms (Psalm 82:1), states "1 God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to YHWH, while others propose that God rules over a divine assembly of other Gods or angels.^[9] Some translations of the passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"^[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"^[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",^[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).^[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.^[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19-23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."^[15]

Edited September 8, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

And this, by a fellow Evangelical.

 

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

 

Not that he gets it totally correct, but it is interesting.

[Canadaigua]

When you can convince me and the rest of LDS the Trinity Evangelical version is from the Bible without nonbiblical additions that fundamentally alter the biblical teachings, your answer might be able to be used to ground a conversation about why LDS can't be Christian in their beliefs. Until then I suspect most of us just see a double standard.

This thread is specifically asking the Evangelical from the Evangelical point of view whether or not a Mormon can be Christian.  It sounds like you don't what to really know what we are telling you.

[Canadaigua]

When you can convince me and the rest of LDS the Trinity Evangelical version is from the Bible without nonbiblical additions that fundamentally alter the biblical teachings, your answer might be able to be used to ground a conversation about why LDS can't be Christian in their beliefs. Until then I suspect most of us just see a double standard.

Do you honestly believe that the LDS gods are closer to what is taught in the Bible as compared to the Evangelical view?  If you do then perhaps you would be willing to answer a few questions for me.

[Canadaigua]

Genesis 1 speaks of the creation as there existing God and "water". "Water" is what God used to create the earth according to the apostle Peter.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

Looking again at verses one and two it doesn't say "there existing God and "water".  It says "God created the heaven and the earth".  The mention of water is in verse 2. 

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

Does the Bible teach that God the Father was once a man who lived on another planet and became a God, who is married and has spiritual childen who were begotten and born to a Heavenly Mother?  Or would you say that these beliefs are from some other source other than that Bible?

 

Darren 10

The bible may be interpreted that way, yes though you will find no such passage in any LDS scripture. 

Can you tell me what verses you are using that can be interpreted to teach the above doctrine about God?

[Canadaigua]

I have read those very carefully and I don't see anything that requires "ex nihilo" creation.  And by the way "universe" is not a necessary translation of that Greek word.

 

Oh, and I highlighted a very important phrase that I am sure you skip right over, not pondering the implications.

 

[John 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.]

You highlighted the above passage in John 1:3.  Below is the Greek word and how it is used in John 1:3.

 

[1181] γίνομαι ginomai 669x pluperfect, ἐγενόει (3rd sg), to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, Jn 1:3

[Darren10]

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

Looking again at verses one and two it doesn't say "there existing God and "water".  It says "God created the heaven and the earth".  The mention of water is in verse 2. 

Correct. As I have mentioned, there is no *explicit* declaration of ex materia creation but the the Bible leans towards that direction. Genesis 1 speaks of God creating the heaven and the earth. The earth is described as "without form". This means the earth was not yet "created" in its present form. God's spirit moved upon the water and according to Peter, God sec the water to create the earth. This all clearly leans towards a creation out of material or pre-existing matter.

[Darren10]

Can you tell me what verses you are using that can be interpreted to teach the above doctrine about God?

Vance already did in post # 550.

[Darren10]

You highlighted the above passage in John 1:3.  Below is the Greek word and how it is used in John 1:3.

 

[1181] γίνομαι ginomai 669x pluperfect, ἐγενόει (3rd sg), to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, Jn 1:3

According to Bible Hub it's genonen which means "emerge".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/gegonen_1096.htm

[Canadaigua]

According to Bible Hub it's genonen which means "emerge".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/gegonen_1096.htm

Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

[1181] γίνομαι ginomai 669x pluperfect, ἐγενόει (3rd sg), to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, Jn 1:3,

 

A Dictionary of Biblical Language

1181 γίνομαι (ginomai): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 2118; Str 1096; TDNT 1.681—1. LN 13.80 come to exist (Jn 1:3; 8:58)

 

NASB Dictionaries

γίνομαι ginomai; from a prim. root γεν- gen-; to come into being, to happen, to become:

[Darren10]

Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

[1181] γίνομαι ginomai 669x pluperfect, ἐγενόει (3rd sg), to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, Jn 1:3,

A Dictionary of Biblical Language

1181 γίνομαι (ginomai): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 2118; Str 1096; TDNT 1.681—1. LN 13.80 come to exist (Jn 1:3; 8:58)

NASB Dictionaries

γίνομαι ginomai; from a prim. root γεν- gen-; to come into being, to happen, to become:

I have read that Strong's a bit outdated so thank you for that.

Still, here's Stong's Greek for ginomai:

1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).

http://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm

Edited September 8, 2014 by Darren10

[Vance]

You highlighted the above passage in John 1:3.  Below is the Greek word and how it is used in John 1:3.

 

[1181] γίνομαι ginomai 669x pluperfect, ἐγενόει (3rd sg), to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, Jn 1:3

So, what is your point.

You obviously missed mine. The verse clearly indicates that those things that were created were created by Jesus, but it also clearly indicates that there are things in existence that Jesus did not created.

[Vance]

It is interesting that the Hebrew word used in Genesis (Bara) that is translated "created" means "choose". Or as I see it "separated out". I also like the "fashion by cutting", or the "shape out" or "pare".

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1254.htm

None of which expresses or implies "ex nihilo" creation.

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

Can you show me from the Bible the unique beliefs you have about God?

 

Vance

Jesus taught,

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

Why don't you ponder the implications of that verse?

John 5:19 is the support in the Bible for the LDS belief that God was once a man who lived on another planet, has a wife in heaven, had spiritual children who were begotten and born to Heavenly mother.  Did I get that right?

 

The main point of this thread is asking from the Evangelical point of view are LDS Christian.  And the answer is no because the LDS believe in a God that is completely different than what the Evangelicals believe and the LDS gospel is completely different.  

Edited September 10, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Canadaigua]

It is interesting that the Hebrew word used in Genesis (Bara) that is translated "created" means "choose". Or as I see it "separated out". I also like the "fashion by cutting", or the "shape out" or "pare".

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1254.htm

None of which expresses or implies "ex nihilo" creation.

This just further illustrates that in virtually every aspect Mormonism differs from Evangelical Christianity and yet LDS ask us if we consider you guys Christian from out point of view.  The answer should be obvious.  Let me illustrate it in reverse.  It would be like me asking a Mormon if they would consider an Evangelical Christian a Mormon.

[Flyonthewall]

This just further illustrates that in virtually every aspect Mormonism differs from Evangelical Christianity and yet LDS ask us if we consider you guys Christian from out point of view.  The answer should be obvious.  Let me illustrate it in reverse.  It would be like me asking a Mormon if they would consider an Evangelical Christian a Mormon.

No. It is not like that at all. You do not represent the entirety of Christianity. The only thing you can say is that LDS are not your brand of Christianity... which we whole heartedly agree. We are not Catholic, nor Baptist, nor Methodist, nor Lutheran, nor Episcopalian, nor any type of non-denominational Christians. We are LDS Christian.

Here is what Jesus taught about it -

49 ¶And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

We believe you to be Christian, even though we disagree... we forbid you not. You, on the other hand, want to forbid us because we follow you not.

Now I ask you, which way is more in line with what Christ taught?

[Vance]

John 5:19 is the support in the Bible for the LDS belief that God was once a man who lived on another planet, has a wife in heaven, had spiritual children who were begotten and born to Heavenly mother.  Did I get that right?

You are really good at putting words into other peoples mouths which they did NOT say. It is becoming obvious that you can't dialogue here.

 

The main point of this thread is asking from the Evangelical point of view are LDS Christian.  And the answer is no because the LDS believe in a God that is completely different than what the Evangelicals believe and the LDS gospel is completely different.

So, it is Modern American Protestant Evangelicals that are the arbiters of who is and is not a Christian. Does Jesus know about this? Edited September 10, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

This just further illustrates that in virtually every aspect Mormonism differs from Evangelical Christianity and yet LDS ask us if we consider you guys Christian from out point of view.  The answer should be obvious.

See my post above.

Let me illustrate it in reverse.  It would be like me asking a Mormon if they would consider an Evangelical Christian a Mormon.

Not at all. It is EXACTLY LIKE you asking a Mormon if a Modern American Protestant Evangelical can be a Christian.

[Vance]

Canadaigua which form/model of the trinity do you adhere to ?, Athanasion, Augustinian, Western, Eastern, Economic, Essential, Social, Bultman ?.  The title "person" [ Greek or Latin I believe] means from my understanding "mask". If so this is a modalistic concept.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

As shown in another thread.

Stop the Twenty Questions game. If you do not immediately respond to the questions asked of you this thread will be closed.

So many questions have been left unanswered.

[Anakin7]

     Canadaigua there are other non LDS Christians who put the True Doctrines/Teachings/Thoughts/Practices/Run/Walk of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and it's members within the walls of The Heavenly Christian Mansion even if they think we are hetrodox. These are found within Roman Catholic, 7 families of Orthodox, Lutheranism, Methodist,Baptist, Reformed,Calvery Chapel or among the 25,000 - 30,000 protestant/non Denominational churches and there members. Your voice is only 1 of a small # of those who bark and shout at us about our Faith and belief. We have been interacting for a # of years now with non LDS Christians who have come to Utah and we to there Universities,Seminaries to dialogue and talk in reasoning together,speaking truth in Love, gentleness and meekness about things of spiritual importance.

 

      Our view of TheTrue Godhead/Trinity from my lights is an Anchient Monarch,Eastern,Economic,Social Form/Model which we see/view as the True Form/Model of the Biblical record. Also we see/view our True salvation/soteriological form/model as the Biblical model.

 

      I would employ you to read,listen to what we are really teaching, not as a modern day pharaseee or Biff Tannon. Gentleness and meekness, reason together.

Read the works of David Paulsen, Blake Ostler, Barry Bickmore, Richard Hopkins and others.Thank you for your time.

 

The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine - Bruce R. Mc Conkie.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited September 10, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

www.evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

          Anakin7

Edited September 10, 2014 by Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

A direct question to Canadaigua...

This is what Joseph Smith stated about the Gospel we preach:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”

What are the fundamental principles of your religion, and how are they different than ours?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

John 5:19 is the support in the Bible for the LDS belief that God was once a man who lived on another planet, has a wife in heaven, had spiritual children who were begotten and born to Heavenly mother.  Did I get that right?

 

The main point of this thread is asking from the Evangelical point of view are LDS Christian.  And the answer is no because the LDS believe in a God that is completely different than what the Evangelicals believe and the LDS gospel is completely different.  

Nice, and yet you completely miss the boat. What did Jesus do when he came to this earth?