Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[ERayR]

 

This brings up an interesting point in that some people feel that the Book of Mormon teaches Modalism.  If you would like we could look at those passages which might make it eInterestingly enousome would say that the Book of Mormon teaches modalism and that J

 

Already looked at.  What you want to do is called cherry picking i.e. reading and interpreting out of context.  You are really unprepared for your attack on Mormonism.  You really ought to get your money back from you How to Witness to Mormons class.

 

PLease go back and read and answer my post # 483.

[Ahab]

God is a kind of being and every person who is that kind of being is God.

Just thought that idea might do at least one person some good here.

[jasonincognito]

I just love it when critical non-members try to teach the Latter-day Saints what we believe.... 

 

I agree that this is counterproductive. Much of the discussion in the last few pages has been difficult to follow for this reason.

 

But in a similar vein, I'm not sure that it is realistically possible for any evangelical to purport to speak on behalf of all evangelicals on any subject matter, whether that subject matter is the status of Mormons as supposed “true Christians” or some other subject matter. This is because, if my understanding of evangelical doctrine is correct (if there can be such a thing as evangelical doctrine), there is no authority—whether it be a Pope, or a Magisterium, or an earthly Prophet, or a First Presidency, or whomever—who can stand between the individual believer and his or her interpretation of Scripture.  If that’s truly the case, then it’s perfectly permissible in such a theological system for one evangelical to believe that Mormons are “Christian”, and another evangelical to believe the opposite, each claiming to base their beliefs on their own interpretation of “the Bible” (setting aside for now confusion about what “the Bible” should mean).

 

This is, IMHO, a larger problem with evangelicalism—if every individual believer gets to decide what “the Bible” means, what right does any individual evangelical have to call another person a heretic, which is essentially what is going on when an evangelical points his/her finger at a Mormon and says that the Mormon is not a true Christian.

 

I’ve posted once before in this thread (which is growing way too long, almost (?) to the point of reaching TL; DR status) that my only real concern is whether I am a true Christian. That’s still my position and I’m sticking with it. This post is really an elaboration upon what I meant by that. I hope that I am a true Christian; I expect that I’ll find out on the day of Judgment and the test of Matthew 25:31-46 is applied to me. I love all of my LDS family members and friends (I have both), and suspect that many of them are much farther along the path to salvation than I am, and better Christians in this sense than I am, but it would be judgmental and preposterous for me to look at someone else and pass judgment on whether they are a true Christian. The most that I can say is that they teach different things than I do on certain things.

 

Forgive me,

 

Jason

[Ahab]

I believe a Christian is simply a person who follows Christ, to any extent whatsoever, and that just about every person on this planet is a Christian to some extent. Some people are just better Christians (followers of Christ) than some of his other followers, and some don't even realize they are Christians, but each and every person who follows Christ and what he stands for is a better person than he/she otherwise would be by not following Christ to any extent.

[coolrok7]

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26b), no such thing as a Mormon existed at the time. Mormons are Mormon because of Joseph Smith (his interpretations) in their doctrine not Christian on the basis of things added along with the twisting of the Bible.

 

Continuing on in answer to the thread question addressed to Evangelicals, I will make as brief as I can in my following posts (using the Bible in its context) along with what I've said so far (beginning with post #13), hopefully without the somewhat rude interruptions by a few. They don't have to accept my opinions when I express them as such (nor I theirs which we get a lot of) but the Biblical argumentation is not just my opinion when I agree with what it says.

 

And yes, interpretation is a big part of all this.

 

Also Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, the Way International, Worldwide Church of God members, Moonies, etc., etc. are all in the same boat when it comes to the twisting of, adding to the Bible in which I can make a lot of the same type arguments.

[halconero]

I agree that this is counterproductive. Much of the discussion in the last few pages has been difficult to follow for this reason.

 

But in a similar vein, I'm not sure that it is realistically possible for any evangelical to purport to speak on behalf of all evangelicals on any subject matter, whether that subject matter is the status of Mormons as supposed “true Christians” or some other subject matter. This is because, if my understanding of evangelical doctrine is correct (if there can be such a thing as evangelical doctrine), there is no authority—whether it be a Pope, or a Magisterium, or an earthly Prophet, or a First Presidency, or whomever—who can stand between the individual believer and his or her interpretation of Scripture.  If that’s truly the case, then it’s perfectly permissible in such a theological system for one evangelical to believe that Mormons are “Christian”, and another evangelical to believe the opposite, each claiming to base their beliefs on their own interpretation of “the Bible” (setting aside for now confusion about what “the Bible” should mean).

 

This is, IMHO, a larger problem with evangelicalism—if every individual believer gets to decide what “the Bible” means, what right does any individual evangelical have to call another person a heretic, which is essentially what is going on when an evangelical points his/her finger at a Mormon and says that the Mormon is not a true Christian.

 

I’ve posted once before in this thread (which is growing way too long, almost (?) to the point of reaching TL; DR status) that my only real concern is whether I am a true Christian. That’s still my position and I’m sticking with it. This post is really an elaboration upon what I meant by that. I hope that I am a true Christian; I expect that I’ll find out on the day of Judgment and the test of Matthew 25:31-46 is applied to me. I love all of my LDS family members and friends (I have both), and suspect that many of them are much farther along the path to salvation than I am, and better Christians in this sense than I am, but it would be judgmental and preposterous for me to look at someone else and pass judgment on whether they are a true Christian. The most that I can say is that they teach different things than I do on certain things.

 

Forgive me,

 

Jason

I agree wholeheartedly. While I believe that many of the Reformers were inspired by God to combat corruptions in the Catholic Church, and to start the ball rolling on eventual religious liberty, I can't help but feel a great damage was wrought to Christian biblical tradition and doctrine of an authorized representative directing the affairs of God's church (Patriarchs and Bishops in your case, the Pope in the Catholic, and a chief apostle/prophet in my own case).

[coolrok7]

Summing up the basic approaches of Christian/Mormon teaching and what it leads to in basic conclusions:

 

Christian:

God created

Man's beginning is in Paradise

Man rebelled against God based on a lie of the devil

Man banned from Paradise under a death sentence

Promise of a Savior- heel bruised/head crushed

Promised Savior arrived as prophesied/The Word became flesh

Dealt with sin on the cross, The Atonement (beginning of His suffering in the Garden)

Need for the Temple fulfilled/Temple veil was torn in two at His death by the earthquake

Died /Buried/Resurrected

Jesus promised to come back/preaching of the Gospel precedes this as prophesied without being lost

2nd Coming/Judgment Day

Eternal life- sheep/Eternal punishment- goats

 

Mormon:

Council of Gods organizing matter

God Elohim/Heavenly Father with a wife/wives have spirit children

Sent to an earth with memories suspended

Not a sin to eat of the forbidden fruit/blessing in disguise

The fall for man's eternal progression/devil told the truth

Gospel corrupted as prophesied

Restoration

Temple ordinances according to Joseph Smith reestablished

2nd Coming/eternal progression continues

Worthy men/woman become gods

Those not worthy of becoming gods/lower levels of heaven

Eternal punishment not really eternal by redefinition

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ERayR]

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26b), no such thing as a Mormon existed at the time. Mormons are Mormon because of Joseph Smith (his interpretations) in their doctrine not Christian on the basis of things added along with the twisting of the Bible.

 

Continuing on in answer to the thread question addressed to Evangelicals, I will make as brief as I can in my following posts (using the Bible in its context) along with what I've said so far (beginning with post #13), hopefully without the somewhat rude interruptions by a few. They don't have to accept my opinions when I express them as such (nor I theirs which we get a lot of) but the Biblical argumentation is not just my opinion when I agree with what it says.

 

And yes, interpretation is a big part of all this.

 

Also Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, the Way International, Worldwide Church of God members, Moonies, etc., etc. are all in the same boat when it comes to the twisting of, adding to the Bible in which I can make a lot of the same type arguments.

 

And no such thing as Evangelicals, nor Baptists nor___________fill in the blank.  There goes that argument, kind of washed away with the tide.

 

And who isn't?  In this post you have done it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by ERayR

[Darren10]

Accept that Christ is the very eternal God instead of our elder spirit brother who progressed to become God.  That's really the bottom line for them.

They hate the idea that Satan and Christ could be brothers or that there was a time before Christ was God.

But was there such a time "before Christ was God" in LDS canonical scripture?

 

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

(Abraham 3 - Bold mine)

Among all LDS scripture, I do believe that scripture is the earliest recognition of Jesus Christ.

[JLHPROF]

But was there such a time "before Christ was God" in LDS canonical scripture?

 

(Abraham 3 - Bold mine)

Among all LDS scripture, I do believe that scripture is the earliest recognition of Jesus Christ.

 

Scriptural specific reference to Christ you would be correct, but unless we completely discard the doctrine of our spirit birth we have to acknowledge a time prior to Christ's spirit birth and therefore prior to his achieving Godhood.

Unless I suppose we're like bees and occasionally a Queen is born among the drones and Christ was spiritually born God...but that really isn't doctrinal.

 

Christ became God by becoming "like unto God", just as we will.

That's what the EV's can't accept.

[Darren10]

Summing up the basic approaches of Christian/Mormon teaching and what it leads to in basic conclusions:

 

Christian:

God created

Man's beginning is in Paradise

Man rebelled against God based on a lie of the devil

Man banned from Paradise under a death sentence

Promise of a Savior- heel bruised/head crushed

Promised Savior arrived as prophesied/The Word became flesh

Dealt with sin on the cross, The Atonement (beginning of His suffering in the Garden)

Need for the Temple fulfilled/Temple veil was torn in two at His death by the earthquake

Died /Buried/Resurrected

Jesus promised to come back/preaching of the Gospel precedes this as prophesied without being lost

2nd Coming/Judgment Day

Eternal life- sheep/Eternal punishment- goats

 

Mormon:

Council of Gods organizing matter

God Elohim/Heavenly Father with a wife/wives have spirit children

Sent to an earth with memories suspended

Not a sin to eat of the forbidden fruit/blessing in disguise - It truly was. The *LORD God* said so.

The fall for man's eternal progression/devil told the truth

Gospel corrupted as prophesied

Restoration

Temple ordinances according to Joseph Smith reestablished

2nd Coming/eternal progression continues

Worthy men/woman become gods

Those not worthy of becoming gods/lower levels of heaven

Eternal punishment not really eternal by redefinition

Council of Gods organizing matter: That means "God created". There is NO biblical obligation for ex nihilo creation and while there's no explicit demand for ex material creation, the Bible does tend to lean in that direction.

God Elohim/Heavenly Father with a wife/wives have spirit children: That's why God is our Heavenly *Father*.

Sent to an earth with memories suspended: I've no recollection of any such thing

Not a sin to eat of the forbidden fruit/blessing in disguise: It truly was. The *LORD God* said so.

The fall for man's eternal progression/devil told the truth: The Devil *did* tell the truth in so far as progression goes. We know the devil told the truth because the Lord God confirmed the truth the Devil told. "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22 - Bold mine). Also note, Lucifer / Satan was cursed for his role in the fall. The earth was also cursed. But Adam and Eve were NOT cursed according to scriptures we have. Further down the line, Cain was cursed for following Satan. Why not Adam and Eve? The best answer is that which Protestants (and lots of non Protestants as well) denounce as a Mormon falsehood.

Gospel corrupted as prophesied: Yup.

Restoration: Yup

Temple ordinances according to Joseph Smith reestablished: This is confirmed all throughout the scriptures.

2nd Coming/eternal progression continues: God is an eternal being with no limits, as "sons of God", so are we. ("Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. - Acts 17:29. "Offspring from the Greek "genos" which means, kin, kind, family, descendants)

Worthy men/woman become gods: Psalms 82:6; John 10:34; Acts 17:29; Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 4:7; Ephesians 4:18; Revelations 3:21)

Those not worthy of becoming gods/lower levels of heaven: yup

Eternal punishment not really eternal by redefinition: Yes, it is. The "redefinition" has not changed that.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Scriptural specific reference to Christ you would be correct, but unless we completely discard the doctrine of our spirit birth we have to acknowledge a time prior to Christ's spirit birth and therefore prior to his achieving Godhood.

Unless I suppose we're like bees and occasionally a Queen is born among the drones and Christ was spiritually born God...but that really isn't doctrinal.

 

Christ became God by becoming "like unto God", just as we will.

That's what the EV's can't accept.

And everything you have outlined is speculation. Things we do not know. Nor can they be known without specific revelations on the matter. Thus, we place our faith and worship not on the speculation but the canonized scriptural doctrines of the pre-mortal Jesus. Also, why is it that Jesus was ever not like God the Father? To me it seems perfectly plausible that Jesus intelligence was such that it always was "like unto God's".

I agree Evangelicals cannot accept what you have outlined but it is vital, at least to me, to point out that not even Mormons need to accept the stated pre-mortal concepts just mentioned in the above posts. (509 & 510). They have not been revealed to man...EVER, so far as I know. So far as progressing to become God, Evangelicals have long forgotten their own doctrines from the early Christian fathers which declare that very thing though, granted, Mormons take it to a much further extreme end.

[Anakin7]

    Coolrok before they were first called "Christians" at Antioch [ Which was presented by those who were critical of Saints and derogitory labeled those followers of Jesus as Christians] they were called "Saints" which is our official Title as well in these latter days. Lutheranism of which you are a member and part is considered defective/heretical/non christian by other christians and forms models of christianity. Motes and Beams/Casting Stones/Busybodies/Pratters come to mind again. There are awesome Lutheran christians out there that are doing there best to follow Jesus Christ.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited September 4, 2014 by Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

Already looked at.  What you want to do is called cherry picking i.e. reading and interpreting out of context.  You are really unprepared for your attack on Mormonism.  You really ought to get your money back from you How to Witness to Mormons class.

 

PLease go back and read and answer my post # 483.

I would be interested in looking at the passages that you say I am taking out of context and you could explain them from your point of view.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Canadaigua]

Council of Gods organizing matter: That means "God created". There is NO biblical obligation for ex nihilo creation and while there's no explicit demand for ex material creation, the Bible does tend to lean in that direction.

 

But the Bible doesn't say anything about a council of Gods responsible for the creation nor that God organzied preexisting material.   

[Canadaigua]

If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved.

 

This is an important question and I would like to address it from the Christian point of view so LDS can better understand how we see things.  If I break it down to the simplest explaination it would be this.  Salvation is based on:  1.  following/worshipping the true God of the Bible, 2.  following the Gospel he has given to us.  The reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is that they follow a different God (or Gods) and that they follow a different gospel. 

[Darren10]

But the Bible doesn't say anything about a council of Gods responsible for the creation nor that God organzied preexisting material.

In Genesis 1 we read:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here it is easily interpreted that with God, "in the beginning" there was water. Peter 3:5 teaches that God created the earth using the water mentioned in Genesis 1. This points to creation ex material or creation out of materials which is the LDS point of view.

You point on the bible not mentioning a council of gods creating the earth is better taken. According to the LDS view, despite there being a council of gods (a VERY biblical term) creating the earth, it is the LORD God who is in charge thus He is the Creator of all things.

http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-5.htm

Edited September 5, 2014 by Darren10

[Ahab]

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26b), no such thing as a Mormon existed at the time. Mormons are Mormon because of Joseph Smith (his interpretations) in their doctrine not Christian on the basis of things added along with the twisting of the Bible.!

We were first called Mormons by people like you who didn't want to call us Christians, but the name Mormon is and was the name of a true Christian who lived on the American continent a long time ago who wrote as a prophet what Joseph Smith translated into what we call the book of Mormon. Read it sometime, and try to realize it is as true as the Bible.

Continuing on in answer to the thread question addressed to Evangelicals, I will make as brief as I can in my following posts (using the Bible in its context) along with what I've said so far (beginning with post #13), hopefully without the somewhat rude interruptions by a few. They don't have to accept my opinions when I express them as such (nor I theirs which we get a lot of) but the Biblical argumentation is not just my opinion when I agree with what it says.

And yes, interpretation is a big part of all this.

Also Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, the Way International, Worldwide Church of God members, Moonies, etc., etc. are all in the same boat when it comes to the twisting of, adding to the Bible in which I can make a lot of the same type arguments.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ahab

[Vance]

The reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is that they follow a different God (or Gods) and that they follow a different gospel.

It is true that we don't follow the Trinitarian God, we follow the true Biblical God.

It is also true that we follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, NOT the misinterpreted gospel of Paul.

And that is why we are Christians.

[Anakin7]

    Canadaigua where do you worship/Church ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

[Anakin7]

              Canadaigua also do a google search for "Biblical Divine Assembly/Council" and see the Mass Biblical references to see there was a series of Biblical Heavenly Councils in Heaven in times past.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

Here it is easily interpreted that with God, "in the beginning" there was water. . .

I don't see any way you could interpret these two verses in Genesis 1 ""in the beginning" there was water. . ." And if this was the case why not simply say "in the beginning" there was water. . ."?

[Canadaigua]

You point on the bible not mentioning a council of gods creating the earth is better taken. According to the LDS view, despite there being a council of gods (a VERY biblical term) creating the earth, it is the LORD God who is in charge thus He is the Creator of all things.

http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-5.htm

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a council of gods created the earth.  

 

Can you give me the verses that speak about these "council of gods"?  (I assume that you will include Psalm 82)

[Canadaigua]

It is true that we don't follow the Trinitarian God, we follow the true Biblical God.

It is also true that we follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, NOT the misinterpreted gospel of Paul.

And that is why we are Christians.

Here is my statement that you are responding to--"The reason that Christians say that Mormons are not Christian is that they follow a different God (or Gods) and that they follow a different gospel."

 

LDS seem taken back when Christians make these kinds of statements.  However LDS hold the exact same beliefs about the Christian God and Christian gospel--ie that Christians are following a false God and a false Gospel.  

 

You said, "It is true that we don't follow the Trinitarian God, we follow the true Biblical God."  But wouldn't it follow that if you follow the God of the Bible that your beliefs would line up with what is taught about God in the Bible?

Edited September 6, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Anakin7]

       We have read/seen/heard these criticisms thousands of times and answered/responded adinfinentum. You may not consider us/our teachings Christian but many do. Your voice/posts are only one, and there are thousands that disagree with you. You need more research before criticising. By the way a 2nd time where do you attend Church to worship ?. And you may not last long on this board with the way you dialogue with us.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited September 6, 2014 by Anakin7