Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Flyonthewall]

I have given you a quote from Joseph Smith from the King Follett Sermon that says that God has not always been God. But you seem to take a different view.  Here is another reference from an LDS manual.  The quote can be found in the bullet points under the Suggestions for Study section.  Take a look at it and tell me what you think.

 

 

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young

 

 

, (1997), 28–35

 

•The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church.

It is very clear to me that you cherry pick individual snippets from an entire collection of teachings, and discard anything else that does not agree with your portrayal of the snippet.

I will quote one of our prophets when answering on this topic: "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it ... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."

Notice that the philosophical background is understood, but details about it are just not there. You want us to take a very definitive position on something that we don't know a lot about.

What you are doing is taking a topic, a concept that is not understood very well and making it the main teaching of the LDS church. So I will stick with what is known. God has been God from everlasting to everlasting. What came before everlasting, I simply cannot comprehend and will not consider speculation as doctrine.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[captainoutofhere]

That is the kicker. That is what the Book of Mormon says...BUT the Prophets have said otherwise. Mary is said to be a virgin, but the Prophets have said that the Savior was conceived the same way we were conceived, and that the HS overshadowed them. Go ask your bishop, stake president, or people at the MTC (I worked there). Truth!

[captainoutofhere]

That is the kicker. That is what the Book of Mormon says...BUT the Prophets have said otherwise. Mary is said to be a virgin, but the Prophets have said that the Savior was conceived the same way we were conceived, and that the HS overshadowed them. Go ask your bishop, stake president, or people at the MTC (I worked there). Truth!

[captainoutofhere]

That the HS overshadowed HF & Mary.

[captainoutofhere]

The LDS definition of "virgin" in regards to Mary is that no mortal has sex with her. I have been taught this, my FIL, and every one I know that is LDS. Granted I thought the people who first told me were looney and making stuff up...but lo and behold, it's church doctrine.

[Flyonthewall]

"LDS believe in God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.  All are God {Gods}; three distinct personages that form one Godhead {But many Gods}."

 

Your definition is pretty close to how Christians would define God with the major distinction of one God as taught in Christianity verses many Gods as taught in Mormonism.  However there are many other differences between the Christian God and the Gods of Mormonism that you did not mention--which are also important distinctions.

Can you explain how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are 3 separate individuals, each individually God, but yet not 3 Gods but 1 God? Without re-defining "3" and "1" and "individually".

I have 3 siblings, 2 brothers and a sister, each are separate individuals, yet they are not 3 but 1. So how many siblings do I have?

[Chronos]

Canadaigua, do not link or quote from sites that espouse anti-Mormon rhetoric. If you are unsure or feel this is unfair, please read the guidelines. An easy way to tell if a site is anti-Mormon: if it has a section, or is entirely dedicated to, their interpretation of LDS doctrine or non-doctrine quotes (in whole or in part) of leaders or members to convince users opposite of what we believe, then it is anti-Mormon.

 

~Chronos 

[coolrok7]

Rain, in your post #378, the point you were making about others saying "you believe..." is exactly what I try not to do (perhaps you can show me an example of this?). I don't in my thought process intend to unless it is specifically what someone has told me what they believe as an individual. 

 

Individuals here as Mormons, LDS, members of the church (whichever way they prefer to be referred to) state their individual beliefs. I try to respond in a way that is not "telling them what they believe" but what the "MORMON CHURCH" teaches or has taught over the years since before and after its beginning with "JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER"  from the first printing of the BoFM.

 

I also try to deal with the "official" church teaching by General Authorities in their printed literature which I quote from often and then told I'm misrepresenting the individuals here (Vance and Anakin7 seem to do this quite often to me in my view):

 

I was handed a tract the other day. It was written by a critic, an enemy of the Church whose desire is to undermine the faith of the weak and the unknowing. It repeats fallacies that have been parroted for a century and more. It purports to set forth what you and I, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, believe. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Nov. 1986, p. 49)

 

An example of this would be where the church teaches a non-Biblical distinction between resurrection being the gift and gaining eternal life as the result of the possibility of meriting it.

 

The Biblical teaching is that the desired result of salvation (escape from an eternal punishment in hell as Jesus taught, disputed in another church pamphlet) which is eternal life being the gift as the result of having faith in Jesus resurrecting from the dead: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23). Good works which follow our faith, in our Sanctification not our Justification, are the result of being: created in Christ Jesus unto good works" which is the work of God not of us, brought about in our faith given to us in which we respond (Ephesians 2:eight-10).

 

Paul taught that salvation is not the result of works which is what "meriting" is as taught by Elder Neal A. Maxwell in the Ensign Church "Official" magazine. Their teaching of what is identified as "eternal progression" is not what Paul and other Biblical writers taught. The result of this being acquired through ordinances in Mormon temples where the promised "godhood" is obtained. This is not the Biblical teaching and never was practiced in the Jerusalem Temple so it cannot be a "restoration" of what was taught in first century Christianity.

 

Some of the individuals here (Anakin7 was the first to give an answer to the thread question) were answering the thread as Mormons and offering what they thought a non-Mormon would say, before any Evangelical answered the thread question which was addressed to them. I've been going round and round with certain individuals who don't like what I have to say, not just in this thread (their prerogative).

 

From my many years of studying with Latter-day Saints on their own turf so to speak, I have a pretty good idea of what the Church actually teaches  as I've heard it directly taught from their own General Authorities/Church members (I was invited to attend church teaching functions by an LDS Institute director) since around 1979 (LDS chapels, Conferences at the various Stakes in my area, at my house with the many missionaries that have come by over the years, etc.).

 

To expand a bit on a point you made, in which you stated, "we tend to jump on others for telling us what we believe". Mormons tend to do this as well in their proselytizing efforts as they seem to accept how the Church misrepresents what other churches teach what they believe and repeat some of the same incorrect things.

 

I'm a Christian, attending a Missouri Synod congregation (a members since my confirmation in 1964) here in southern Ca. since around 1959 with a few break in between. I was in the Marine Corps for about 9 years. After which I was married in Aug. of 1979 and moved to Tulsa, Ok. for about 5 years, in part attending Spartan School of Aeronautics, to get my A&P license to work on aircraft as a civilian.

 

While there, I met a Mormon couple from N. Ogden Utah, I worked with the guy at the airport who had also attended the same school (a different class/time though). He and his wife had invited us to dinner (in 1984) who also had the missionaries over at the same time. He had given me a copy of the "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" by LeGrand Richards. The Church had offered this to the public in a Readers Digest advertisement back in 1980.

 

In the advertisement it is stated:  FREE 150-page BOOK answers more questions about Mormons than any other book we could send you." 

 

We both had moved back where we came from within 3 weeks of each other in 1985. Later  we visited them while going on vacations up to Idaho as my sister lives in Idaho Falls. The last time I had visited them was about 6 or 7 years ago as the company I work for sent me up there for a few days for some work I had to do.

 

We sort of had a falling out as I had asked them a question that evening concerning a Sunday School lesson we had attended with them that day at their Ward. It had to do with how they would know if it was the actually Biblical Holy Spirit revealing these things to them that they say they believe. This in the context of the Bible teaching that there are lying spirits trying to deceive people with false messages supposedly from God.

 

We still talked after this but I'm sure they still have ruffled feelings concerning the matter (as I later I had several e-mails with the wife where she had asked why would I spend so much time finding fault with what they believe?, which wasn't the case at all (It came as the result of being told I was "wrong" according to Joseph Smith what God told him).

 

It was an honest question as the result of the lesson and the examples used of God revealing things to Joseph Smith if I recall correctly (not intended to belittle them in what they believe (in light of what I believe explains the Mormon historical phenomena which would also apply to other groups making the same type of claims as the Mormons do).

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua, do not link or quote from sites that espouse anti-Mormon rhetoric. If you are unsure or feel this is unfair, please read the guidelines. An easy way to tell if a site is anti-Mormon: if it has a section, or is entirely dedicated to, their interpretation of LDS doctrine or non-doctrine quotes (in whole or in part) of leaders or members to convince users opposite of what we believe, then it is anti-Mormon.

 

~Chronos 

I quoted from LDS.org.  Certainly you wouldn't say that this is an "anti-Mormon" site.

[captainoutofhere]

^ +1000. That is all I have been saying. People think I'm "anti". My info couldn't be any more pro-lds.

[Canadaigua]

Can you explain how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are 3 separate individuals, each individually God, but yet not 3 Gods but 1 God? Without re-defining "3" and "1" and "individually".

I have 3 siblings, 2 brothers and a sister, each are separate individuals, yet they are not 3 but 1. So how many siblings do I have?

Can I fully understand it from my perspective? No.  And all attempts in trying to explain from a human perspective fall short in some way.  Certainly it would be easier from a human perspective to believe that they are separate and distinct gods.  So why do Christians believe in one God verses many Gods like Mormonism teaches?  Because the Bible teaches that there is only one true God.

[Flyonthewall]

The LDS definition of "virgin" in regards to Mary is that no mortal has sex with her. I have been taught this, my FIL, and every one I know that is LDS. Granted I thought the people who first told me were looney and making stuff up...but lo and behold, it's church doctrine.

Perhaps you could show us from the LDS.org site the definition of "virgin".

Oh nevermind, here it is:

Virgin

See also Mary, Mother of Jesus

A man or woman of marriageable age who has never had sexual intercourse. In the scriptures, a virgin may represent someone who is morally clean (Rev. 14:4).

A virgin shall conceive and bear a son:Isa. 7:14; ( Matt. 1:23; 2 Ne. 17:14; )

The kingdom of heaven is likened unto ten virgins:Matt. 25:1–13;

In the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, who was the mother of the Son of God:1 Ne. 11:13–18;

Mary was a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel:Alma 7:10;

I don't see anything in there that you describe.

[Rain]

I did a quick search back and didn't find it right away.  Honestly, I just don't have the desire to go back and search through it all.  I just remember it was just before several people expressed offense.  It may have been a little different wording because I am not finding it in a search. Sorry. 

Rain, in your post #378, the point you were making about others saying "you believe..." is exactly what I try not to do (perhaps you can show me an example of this?). I don't in my thought process intend to unless it is specifically what someone has told me what they believe as an individual. 

 

Individuals here as Mormons, LDS, members of the church (whichever way they prefer to be referred to) state their individual beliefs. I try to respond in a way that is not "telling them what they believe" but what the "MORMON CHURCH" teaches or has taught over the years since before and after its beginning with "JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER"  from the first printing of the BoFM.

 

I also try to deal with the "official" church teaching by General Authorities in their printed literature which I quote from often and then told I'm misrepresenting the individuals here (Vance and Anakin7 seem to do this quite often to me in my view):

 

 

An example of this would be where the church teaches a non-Biblical distinction between resurrection being the gift and gaining eternal life as the result of the possibility of meriting it.

 

The Biblical teaching is that the desired result of salvation (escape from an eternal punishment in hell as Jesus taught, disputed in another church pamphlet) which is eternal life being the gift as the result of having faith in Jesus resurrecting from the dead: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23). Good works which follow our faith, in our Sanctification not our Justification, are the result of being: created in Christ Jesus unto good works" which is the work of God not of us, brought about in our faith given to us in which we respond (Ephesians 2:eight-10).

 

Paul taught that salvation is not the result of works which is what "meriting" is as taught by Elder Neal A. Maxwell in the Ensign Church "Official" magazine. Their teaching of what is identified as "eternal progression" is not what Paul and other Biblical writers taught. The result of this being acquired through ordinances in Mormon temples where the promised "godhood" is obtained. This is not the Biblical teaching and never was practiced in the Jerusalem Temple so it cannot be a "restoration" of what was taught in first century Christianity.

 

Some of the individuals here (Anakin7 was the first to give an answer to the thread question) were answering the thread as Mormons and offering what they thought a non-Mormon would say, before any Evangelical answered the thread question which was addressed to them. I've been going round and round with certain individuals who don't like what I have to say, not just in this thread (their prerogative).

 

From my many years of studying with Latter-day Saints on their own turf so to speak, I have a pretty good idea of what the Church actually teaches  as I've heard it directly taught from their own General Authorities/Church members (I was invited to attend church teaching functions by an LDS Institute director) since around 1979 (LDS chapels, Conferences at the various Stakes in my area, at my house with the many missionaries that have come by over the years, etc.).

 

To expand a bit on a point you made, in which you stated, "we tend to jump on others for telling us what we believe". Mormons tend to do this as well in their proselytizing efforts as they seem to accept how the Church misrepresents what other churches teach what they believe and repeat some of the same incorrect things.

 

I'm a Christian, attending a Missouri Synod congregation (a members since my confirmation in 1964) here in southern Ca. since around 1959 with a few break in between. I was in the Marine Corps for about 9 years. After which I was married in Aug. of 1979 and moved to Tulsa, Ok. for about 5 years, in part attending Spartan School of Aeronautics, to get my A&P license to work on aircraft as a civilian.

 

While there, I met a Mormon couple from N. Ogden Utah, I worked with the guy at the airport who had also attended the same school (a different class/time though). He and his wife had invited us to dinner (in 1984) who also had the missionaries over at the same time. He had given me a copy of the "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" by LeGrand Richards. The Church had offered this to the public in a Readers Digest advertisement back in 1980.

 

In the advertisement it is stated:  FREE 150-page BOOK answers more questions about Mormons than any other book we could send you." 

 

We both had moved back where we came from within 3 weeks of each other in 1985. Later  we visited them while going on vacations up to Idaho as my sister lives in Idaho Falls. The last time I had visited them was about 6 or 7 years ago as the company I work for sent me up there for a few days for some work I had to do.

 

We sort of had a falling out as I had asked them a question that evening concerning a Sunday School lesson we had attended with them that day at their Ward. It had to do with how they would know if it was the actually Biblical Holy Spirit revealing these things to them that they say they believe. This in the context of the Bible teaching that there are lying spirits trying to deceive people with false messages supposedly from God.

 

We still talked after this but I'm sure they still have ruffled feelings concerning the matter (as I later I had several e-mails with the wife where she had asked why would I spend so much time finding fault with what they believe?, which wasn't the case at all (It came as the result of being told I was "wrong" according to Joseph Smith what God told him).

 

It was an honest question as the result of the lesson and the examples used of God revealing things to Joseph Smith if I recall correctly (not intended to belittle them in what they believe (in light of what I believe explains the Mormon historical phenomena which would also apply to other groups making the same type of claims as the Mormons do).

[Canadaigua]

It is very clear to me that you cherry pick individual snippets from an entire collection of teachings, and discard anything else that does not agree with your portrayal of the snippet.

 

I have given you several quotes from LDS.org that teach that God has not always been God (or a God).  Perhaps the information in your own magazines such as the Ensign and official church manuals is incorrect.  

[Flyonthewall]

Can I fully understand it from my perspective? No.  And all attempts in trying to explain from a human perspective fall short in some way.  Certainly it would be easier from a human perspective to believe that they are separate and distinct gods.  So why do Christians believe in one God verses many Gods like Mormonism teaches?  Because the Bible teaches that there is only one true God.

Yet the bible also refers to Jesus having a God... was not referring to Himself but but to the Father who is our God, as well as His God.

LDS also believe in One True God, but we don't have to redefine language to do so.

[Calm]

I quoted from LDS.org.  Certainly you wouldn't say that this is an "anti-Mormon" site.

How did you find the materials in the first place?  Because the punctuation follows some anti-sites and not the lds.org site.

[Vance]

That is the kicker. That is what the Book of Mormon says...BUT the Prophets have said otherwise. Mary is said to be a virgin, but the Prophets have said that the Savior was conceived the same way we were conceived, and that the HS overshadowed them. Go ask your bishop, stake president, or people at the MTC (I worked there). Truth!

With today's medical technology it is nothing for a virgin to give birth.  Her baby has to conceived "the same way we were conceived".  Yet she is still a virgin.  Do you think God is not smarter or more capable than today's doctors?

 

Your argument is SILLY!!!

[Vance]

Another silly argument.

 

An example of this would be where the church teaches a non-Biblical distinction between resurrection being the gift and gaining eternal life as the result of the possibility of meriting it.

 

 

According to the Bible all will be resurrected.

 

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Jesus said it, and I believe it.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

Can I fully understand it from my perspective? No.  And all attempts in trying to explain from a human perspective fall short in some way.  Certainly it would be easier from a human perspective to believe that they are separate and distinct gods.  So why do Christians believe in one God verses many Gods like Mormonism teaches?  Because the Bible teaches that there is only one true God.

So you have no clue what it is and can't explain it. But because LDS reject it they can't be call Christian?

 

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

[Vance]

Because the Bible teaches that there is only one true God.

And Jesus separated and distinguished Himself from the only true God,

 

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

So now you have a problem.  You say there is only one true God and according to Jesus, He is NOT that God.

 

Edited to add some more verses.

 

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

2 Pet 1: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Edited September 1, 2014 by Vance

[Flyonthewall]

I have given you several quotes from LDS.org that teach that God has not always been God (or a God).  Perhaps the information in your own magazines such as the Ensign and official church manuals is incorrect.

Yes you have given several quotes from LDS.org, but there are many others that state He is the Eternal Father, from everlasting to everlasting. Can you tell me when in eternity He was not? I cannot.

You take one or two statements and pull them out of the entire set of teachings and try to make them stand on their own.

It is too bad that Joseph did not have the time to expand upon that concept he introduced... and as I have pointed out, a subsequent Prophet addressed this concept, and stated point blank - we don't know much about it.

[captainoutofhere]

Look up what the prophets have said and still do say about the subject. They teach that HF & Mary had intercourse. No twisting of their words. It's straight up what they teach. They teach that Mary was a virgin only in regards to relations with a mortal. Read LDS.org for more info.

[JLHPROF]

Look up what the prophets have said and still do say about the subject. They teach that HF & Mary had intercourse. No twisting of their words. It's straight up what they teach. They teach that Mary was a virgin only in regards to relations with a mortal. Read LDS.org for more info.

 

I'll say what others might not agree with or are willing to say:

 

Yes, they have taught that.  Some still do, some don't.  I completely personally believe that HF and Mary were married and had Christ the old fashioned way (except he was resurrected and immortal and she was in a pure and holy state probably similar to translation).  The Church may not be willing to come out and say that publically anymore as it did in decades past, but I will.

 

YOU can claim that makes me not Christian in my beliefs.  I think that's utterly ridiculous since I still accept Christ as my Savior and Redeemer and rely on him for my salvation.  If you define Christian as one who believes in the Christ of the Early Christian fathers of the first 4 centuries AD then NO, I am not a Christian and don't want to be.  If you define Christ as one who believes in and accepts Christ as Saviour, his atoning sacrifice and our utter dependence on him, and considers him to be a God before me then I am 100% as Christian as you are.

[captainoutofhere]

+1 for Honesty. (I wasn't making this stuff up.).

We are of different faiths, but can I just give someone on this board a high five for openness and honesty? . Someone thought I knew my stuff to be a temple worker (not current, of course)...I have not forgotten anything. In fact, I am learning more than ever now about the church being that I can freely read it's history.

[Calm]

Knowing something and understanding it are not always coexistent.