Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[captainoutofhere]

The Bible talks about the Spirit being G-d, the Savior being G-d, and the Father being G-d. It also says there is only ONE G-d. God is not only our sole source, but G-d also said he didn't know if any other Gods. He is real, one, and Tri-Une. When we think of him as a exalted mortal...that doesn't make sense. But the Bible never says He was one. He is Spirit. He says that His ways are NOT our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. They are higher. Completely different belief systems. If you want to know more about Jesus, please contact me.

[captainoutofhere]

(The Bible never said that he was an exalted mortal. (Father God)

[Anakin7]

    captainoutofhere we LDS have heard/seen this/these arguments adinfinentum and have responded to them adinfinentum. Which Trinity form/model do you subscribe to ?. Western/Eastern/Athanasiousian/Augustinian/Economic/Essential/Bultmon/Social ?. Which one is the correct Biblical form/model ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

Edited August 30, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    captainoutofhere from our LDS Lights your posts #s 326/327 have multiple problems. We Love you.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

[Vance]

The Bible talks about the Spirit being G-d, the Savior being G-d, and the Father being G-d. It also says there is only ONE G-d.

It also says there are many gods that are subservient to God.  Are these gods true are false?

 

God is not only our sole source, but G-d also said he didn't know if any other Gods.

That is not what he said at all, what He said is that there are none equivalent to Him.

 

He is real, one, and Tri-Une.

What does that even mean?  It is not in the Bible.

 

Why is it that when someone says something like "My wife and I are one" we know that they don't mean that they are some mysterious unknowable kind of oneness, but one in purpose. But when Jesus says He and His Father (obviously referring to two separate and distinct individuals) are one, we HAVE TO ASSUME that He is really referring to some sort of mystical unknowable oneness?

 

If it was truly unknowable to us, why did He try to confuse us with such words?

 

When we think of him as a exalted mortal...

You mean think of Him as an exalted IMmortal man LIKE Jesus is an exalted immortal man, right?

 

And why not?  If it is good enough for Jesus why would it not be good enough for the Father, so to speak?

 

...that doesn't make sense.

You are right, to think of Him as mortal (meaning death awaits him) doesn't make any sense at all.

 

But the Bible never says He was one.

You are the one not making sense, you say there is only one God, and the Jesus is God, and we know that Jesus is an immortal exalted man.  So, how is it that God can't be an immortal exalted man?

 

I am beginning to think that you haven't thought this thing through.

 

He is Spirit.

And so are you, and so is Jesus.  That doesn't mean that He can NOT have a body of flesh and bone.

 

He says that His ways are NOT our ways,

So, in other words, He is saying you are wrong?  If you are wrong and you know you are wrong, what makes you think that you can say what is right?

 

and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

See above.

 

They are higher.

How can He have thoughts if he doesn't have a brain?

 

Completely different belief systems.

Yes, your belief system is totally different from what is presented in the Bible.  What are you going to do about that?

 

If you want to know more about Jesus, please contact me.

Not until after you can get you stuff together.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Vance

[cdowis]

The Bible talks about the Spirit being G-d, the Savior being G-d, and the Father being G-d. It also says there is only ONE G-d. God is not only our sole source, but G-d also said he didn't know if any other Gods. He is real, one, and Tri-Une. When we think of him as a exalted mortal...that doesn't make sense. But the Bible never says He was one. He is Spirit. He says that His ways are NOT our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. They are higher. Completely different belief systems. If you want to know more about Jesus, please contact me.

 

I will listen to what Christ taught in John 17:19-21, especially where He said, 

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; 

 

There is One God, and as believers we will become one with the Father in the same way as Christ is One with the Father, and receive their glory.

 

Now tell me why should I listen to you.  

 

Contact me and I will tell you what else Christ told us -- that we are joint heirs with Christ, and  "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Edited August 31, 2014 by cdowis

[Canadaigua]

The Bible does reference other books which are not included in the Bible. This indicates that there are other books that contain words of the Lord that are not in the Bible.

 

Do you think that these other books are scripture and should be included in the Bible?

[Canadaigua]

Kind of circular: the Christian world defines Christianity as a belief in the Trinity (extra biblical standard), what defines the Christan world? Let me guess: a belief in the Trinity.

Funny thing is "Christian" seems to me to point to a belief in Christ, not some extra biblical tradition that wasn't defined until centuries after Christ's death. I guess all those who thought they were Christians before the Trinity was made into a creed weren't really Christians at all, like Peter, James, John, Paul, Matthew, etc.

If what you say is true--that the concept of the Trinity is an extra Biblical standard--why do you think that any Christian would believe in the Trinity?

[Storm Rider]

This topic always devolves into silliness - "you cannot be Christian because you don't believe in the Trinity" - "The Trinitarian doctrine is not biblical" - "The first apostles were not Trinitarian so they cannot be Christian".  What makes this even worse is that most Christians in attempting to defend the doctrine of the Trinity describe Modalism rather than the Trinitarian doctrine itself.  

 

It is anathema for some Christians to admit the reality that the dreaded Mormon hordes can actually be Christian or anyone else with heterodox beliefs.  

 

Then there is the more heinous bit of tripe that, "Well, you Mormons don't really know Jesus - you worship a different Jesus".  At this point I generally either spit or shake my head in disgust.  

 

If you take the Apostle's Creed every Mormon I know will be able to repeat with fervent belief:

 

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:  

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

 

Number 9 is the only statement that LDS would not support fully.  If we clarified the definition of catholic church we could gain acceptance, but we have no belief in a communion of saints.  I would also say that Baptists in general would also not agree with 9 along with a host of other Protestants.  

 

LDS belief in the Jesus that hung on the cross and died and was resurrected for all humanity.  There is no other Jesus for us except him.  Now, if you want to say we are not Christian, knock yourself out.  What you believe, what you say has no impact on our testimony of the Son of God.  

[Canadaigua]

This topic always devolves into silliness - "you cannot be Christian because you don't believe in the Trinity" - "The Trinitarian doctrine is not biblical" - "The first apostles were not Trinitarian so they cannot be Christian".  What makes this even worse is that most Christians in attempting to defend the doctrine of the Trinity describe Modalism rather than the Trinitarian doctrine itself.  

 

It is anathema for some Christians to admit the reality that the dreaded Mormon hordes can actually be Christian or anyone else with heterodox beliefs.  

 

Then there is the more heinous bit of tripe that, "Well, you Mormons don't really know Jesus - you worship a different Jesus".  At this point I generally either spit or shake my head in disgust.  

 

If you take the Apostle's Creed every Mormon I know will be able to repeat with fervent belief:

 

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:  

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

 

Number 9 is the only statement that LDS would not support fully.  If we clarified the definition of catholic church we could gain acceptance, but we have no belief in a communion of saints.  I would also say that Baptists in general would also not agree with 9 along with a host of other Protestants.  

 

LDS belief in the Jesus that hung on the cross and died and was resurrected for all humanity.  There is no other Jesus for us except him.  Now, if you want to say we are not Christian, knock yourself out.  What you believe, what you say has no impact on our testimony of the Son of God.  

But you do believe in a different Jesus.  Do you believe that Jesus has always been God? 

[Anakin7]

    From olam to olam.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

    From olam to olam.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Belief in a Jesus that has not alway been God, but became a God at some point along the way, is a different Jesus than Christians believe in.

[Calm]

Belief in Jesus who always was that which made him God, is that in your view a Christian belief?

[Calm]

2 evangelicals show up out of the blue preaching the same lines. I just realized school started. Could we be a class project? Go beard the lion in its own den for your first "A"?

Edited August 31, 2014 by calmoriah

[Canadaigua]

Belief in Jesus who always was that which made him God, is that in your view a Christian belief?

Jesus who was always God in contrast to the Mormon belief that Jesus wasn't alway God (or a God) but became one at some point during his eternal progression.

[Canadaigua]

2 evangelicals show up out of the blue preaching the same lines. I just realized school started. Could we be a class project? Go beard the lion in its own den for your first "A"?

President Gordon B Hinckley stated that LDS believe in a different Jesus than Christians.  Would you agree with his statement?

[Canadaigua]

    From olam to olam.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

The same could be said about the Father as well that he has not always been God but rather became a God at some point during his eternal progression.

[cdowis]

Jesus who was always God in contrast to the Mormon belief that Jesus wasn't alway God (or a God) but became one at some point during his eternal progression.

 

Please do not pretend that you know or understand "the Mormon belief" in this regard.  

And I won't pretend to know or understand the "one substance" (homoousia) doctrine of the Nicene Creed.

Edited August 31, 2014 by cdowis

[Calm]

Jesus who was always God in contrast to the Mormon belief that Jesus wasn't alway God (or a God) but became one at some point during his eternal progression.

You didn't answer my question but just told us what we believe. That is against board rules btw.

Try again with just addressing my question please.

Edited August 31, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

President Gordon B Hinckley stated that LDS believe in a different Jesus than Christians.  Would you agree with his statement?

He said we believed in the biblical Jesus. I guess that means you don't.

[Flyonthewall]

Do you think that these other books are scripture and should be included in the Bible?

When they are mentioned in scripture as scripture then absolutely.

What is scripture other than the writings of holy men of the past most likely written down by scribes?

Where are the words of each and every Apostle that is listed in the Bible? Why are only some included, and some are not. Didn't those other Apostles have anything important to say?

Were there more prophets than those identified in the Bible? Well the Bible alluded to books of some unknown prophets... Didn't they have anything important to say either?

I believe God has had a LOT more to say to mankind over the last 6000 or so years, directly or through prophets, than is recorded in the Bible.

Jesus stated that man should live by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Can you say if you have EVERY word that came from the mouth of God?

[Hestia]

Captain out of here and any others, proselyting is not allowed. Please review the Board Rules before posting again.

[Vance]

But you do believe in a different Jesus.  Do you believe that Jesus has always been God? 

Well, the Biblical Jesus, the one you supposedly believe in, didn't always have "all power".  For the Bible says,(Matt 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

So, If Jesus did not progress in some way, why did he need to be given "all power".  Why didn't he always have it? And what separate Divine Being had to give it to him?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

Jesus who was always God in contrast to the Mormon belief that Jesus wasn't alway God (or a God) but became one at some point during his eternal progression.

You know what is interesting is the thoughtlessness that goes into these kinds of attacks.

 

By thoughtlessness I mean this:

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

Since eternity has no beginning this verse is specifically NOT talking about eternity, but rather the beginning of something significantly less than eternity. (For any thing less than eternity is an eternity less than eternity).

 

That verse can NOT be used as a proof text that Jesus has always been God.

 

Another thoughtlessness is assumption that Biblical words mean only what modern American Protestant Evangelicals think they mean.  Take for example the word "everlasting".

 

According to the Bible the "hills" and the "mountains" are "everlasting" (See Gen 49:26 & Hab 3:6), yet they have not always existed nor will they always continue to exist.

[Vance]

If what you say is true--that the concept of the Trinity is an extra Biblical standard--why do you think that any Christian would believe in the Trinity?

 

Maybe for the same reason some people believe, or believed that the earth is flat.