Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Anakin7]

    coolrok we are Saved by True Grace [ charis = Unmerited Favor which is one of approx 50 definitions of Grace within the walls of The Heavenly Jerusalem where God The Father/God The Son Jesus Christ/God The Holy Ghost/Spirit/ Archangels/Angels/ Rightiousness/Truth Dwell] and what The Anchient True Biblica O.T Prophets Hebrew/Israelites/ True Biblical N.T Prophets Apostles/Saints/Christians believed in there Hearts/Minds] Alone Through True Faith of which there are 25 definitional meanings [ pistis = the super 7 definitions - Commitment/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust ] to the person work of Jesus . We are looking at scripture throught the client/patron Biblical Salvation soteriology not the employer/employee system that you try to strawman us with.

 

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited August 4, 2014 by Anakin7

[Storm Rider]

Except that there is a judgment day and you are judged by your works.  It is obvious that works have value to God or there would be no need for any form of judgment.

[coolrok7]

My works have already been judged, put upon Jesus at the cross on Calvary.

My name is now written in the Lambs book of life through faith in which I'm saved by grace, not of works.

Yes ones works in the book of works mentioned in the book of Revelation speaks of this. Those whose names are still there at the Judgment will be judged on that basis in which they will not measure up to the perfection God demands of all of us. I'm cleansed by the blood of Jesus which accomplishes this for me and all who believe!

Not a strawman argument but the truth of the word of God!

[wenglund]

I view salvation as consisting of more than just cleansing from sin, to also include salvation from ignorance and a fallen state (natural man) as well as being conformed to the image and likeness of Christ.

 

As such, while Christ makes salvation possible both through his sacrificial death and his exemplary life, effort is also required on our part in coming to know him and become increasingly more like him.

 

I don't think it at all coincidental that Christ likened the kingdom of heaven to laborers in the vineyard. 

 

But, that may just be me.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Vance]

My works have already been judged, . . .

. . .

Those whose names are still there at the Judgment will be judged . . .

You probably don't even see the inconsistency in your post.

No surprise really.

BTW you, apparently being unfamiliar with what the Bible actually teaches, missed this verse.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So, obviously, your first statement is, unsurprisingly, wrong.

[Anakin7]

    My post # 251 still stands.

 

In His Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

[Anakin7]

 The True "Biblical" View of True Faith Accepting/Accessing/Activating True Grace by some non LDS Christians which we LDS would agree with I believe - http://www.biblepages.net/gh09.htm

 

 In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited August 8, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    Would any other LDS agree with the above linked paper ?. And how about our Lutheran critic coolrok ?.

   

    In His Debt/Grace

          Anakin7

Edited August 8, 2014 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

Ultimately, what it means in the Biblical context is what I come away with/trust in/have confidence. I have faith/believe (synonymous) that Jesus is the author/finisher of my faith which is salvation. This is being saved from an eternal punishment in hell meted out at the Judgment Day according to Jesus, the final destination for all sinners had not God intervened at Calvary.

 

By God's grace (unmerited favor) all believers will have eternal life (which is not merited/earned/worked for on our part), saved by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2) on the basis of believing in one's heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10).

 

Works are a testimony of having faith. Of this I have the utmost confidence that God will deliver on that promise to me and all believers. Joseph Smith messed with Biblical terminology by rewriting what it means by what it says. In the BofM: the words according to testimony came from his mouth by supposedly reading the letters of light on a stone (in a hat drawn up around his face) to read and would be replaced by more if written down correctly.

 

Mormonism teaches salvation (the gift) is "Resurrection" but "eternal life" is merited/earned/worked for which is the added "after all we can do" in the BofM (2 Nephi 25:23b, contrasted with Paul in Ephesians 2:. Some that are resurrected from the grave will be raised to "eternal punishment", not "eternal life" (eternal life is the gift, not resurrection). The rest of those resurrected will have eternal life:

 

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23)

 

By Revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities one must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

 

Paul told the Philippian jailer, in answer to his question, "What must I do to be saved?". "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . ."

 

Mormonism appears to not want to give up their belief in Joseph Smith and believe the Biblical testimony (In answer to the thread question). Their prerogative. Based on what I've learned as an investigator, I don't believe Joseph Smith.

[Anakin7]

    Still misreading/misinterpeting 2 Nephi 25:23 [With no context again] coolrok. Other BofM scriprtures you fail to quote that speak of our salvation as unmerited, Not our merits but Jesus Christs merits. Remember this is a Discussion Board not a why we LDS are Hell bound . Try again with gentleness and meekness.  See also my link in my post # 257.

  

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

Edited August 11, 2014 by Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

Ultimately, what it means in the Biblical context is what I come away with/trust in/have confidence. I have faith/believe (synonymous) that Jesus is the author/finisher of my faith which is salvation. This is being saved from an eternal punishment in hell meted out at the Judgment Day according to Jesus, the final destination for all sinners had not God intervened at Calvary.

 

By God's grace (unmerited favor) all believers will have eternal life (which is not merited/earned/worked for on our part), saved by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2) on the basis of believing in one's heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10).

 

Works are a testimony of having faith. Of this I have the utmost confidence that God will deliver on that promise to me and all believers. Joseph Smith messed with Biblical terminology by rewriting what it means by what it says. In the BofM: the words according to testimony came from his mouth by supposedly reading the letters of light on a stone (in a hat drawn up around his face) to read and would be replaced by more if written down correctly.

 

Mormonism teaches salvation (the gift) is "Resurrection" but "eternal life" is merited/earned/worked for which is the added "after all we can do" in the BofM (2 Nephi 25:23b, contrasted with Paul in Ephesians 2: . Some that are resurrected from the grave will be raised to "eternal punishment", not "eternal life" (eternal life is the gift, not resurrection). The rest of those resurrected will have eternal life:

 

 

 

 

Paul told the Philippian jailer, in answer to his question, "What must I do to be saved?". "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. . ."

 

Mormonism appears to not want to give up their belief in Joseph Smith and believe the Biblical testimony (In answer to the thread question). Their prerogative. Based on what I've learned as an investigator, I don't believe Joseph Smith.

Sooo... does belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God negate ones belief in Jesus as the Savior and author of one salvation? If so, seems like a belief in Jesus is easily overridden... what makes you so sure your belief has not been overridden?

You say "Works are a testimony of having faith"... what works are you talking about? What if you don't have those works? do you not have faith?.

Bible says faith without works is dead, yet you say you are saved without works... Does dead faith save?

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, who is the thread addressed to and what was asked?

[coolrok7]

Flyonthewall, get back to you later as my lunch break is over.

[cdowis]

coolrock,

 

Do you think that members of the Catholic church are Christians.

 

They disagree with your interpretation of the Bible regarding the role of works in salvation and has been a matter of discussion between Protestants and Catholics for centuries.

 

BTW, you don't have to answer if you don't want to --

 

Assuming an inerrant Bible, where do we go to find an inerrant interpretation of the bible.  Inerrancy of the Bible is rather moot until we get inerrant interpretation, is that not correct?  For example, some think that when Paul talks about "works", it is related to the works of the Mosiac Law, not the good works described by Christ.  

 

You might want to read the parables of Christ, and especially where He talks about the Last Judgement.  What does He say to those on his right hand, and to those on the left.  What exactly was the critical point of judgement.  I suggest that you read it carefully.

Edited August 11, 2014 by cdowis

[Vance]

Mormonism teaches salvation (the gift) is "Resurrection" but "eternal life" is merited/earned/worked for which is the added "after all we can do" in the BofM (2 Nephi 25:23b, contrasted with Paul in Ephesians 2:8 ).

It is very rude of you to tell us what we believe. More so, because you constantly get it wrong.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Vance

[Anakin7]

    Coolrok, Answer: "To Evangelical Christians and can a Mormon Be a Christian" then you misquote/misinterpet 2 Nephi 25:23 for example to show us why we are not Christian but not seeing clearly to pull out motes/beams from your eye and continue to throw stones at us by you is unscriptural. Especialy when the same criticisms of a non christian/heretical leader in Martin Luther and false gospel found in Lutheranism is at your front/back door presented by other Evangelical Christians. I am not making theses observations of myself but observed others making these observations.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    Vance [And other LDS] coolrok7 resides in The Lutheran christian house [church]. That is from my understanding. He volunteers at ex mormons for Jesus in Orange County Ca. The Director there Charlotte Pardee is also a Lutheran from my understanding.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Zakuska]

He is a Lutheran and yet disagrees with Martin Luther that "works are necessary for salvation." Huh?

[boblloyd91]

    Vance [And other LDS] coolrok7 resides in The Lutheran christian house [church]. That is from my understanding. He volunteers at ex mormons for Jesus in Orange County Ca. The Director there Charlotte Pardee is also a Lutheran from my understanding.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

Ex Mormons for Jesus? Isn't that Ed Decker's outfit? 

[Anakin7]

 No Ed Decker's Saints Alive organization is in Washington State.

 

In His Debt/Grace

     Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited August 12, 2014 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

Coolrok, Answer: "To Evangelical Christians and can a Mormon Be a Christian" then you misquote/misinterpet 2 Nephi 25:23 for example to show us why we are not Christian but not seeing clearly to pull out motes/beams from your eye and continue to throw stones at us by you is unscriptural. Especialy when the same criticisms of a non christian/heretical leader in Martin Luther and false gospel found in Lutheranism is at your front/back door presented by other Evangelical Christians. I am not making theses observations of myself but observed others making these observations.

 

In His Debt/Grace

      Anakin7

Thanks to Nephi's use of the chiasmic literary device of the separated thought repetition, the meaning of verse 23 is made clear:

20 ... yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved...

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do...

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source (Christ) they may look for a remission of their sins.

 

It's plain to see the meaning of the thought conveyed verse 26 is a virtual repetition of the same thought found in verse 23.

 

By combining verses 23 and 26, the meaning of verse 23 becomes clear: In order to persuade his children and brethren to believe in the Messiah, and be reconciled to God, Nephi consistently wrote about, talked about, preached about and prophesied about the absolute need for Jesus Christ and His infinite atonement, boldly testifying that if even in each and every moment of their lives men diligently did all in their power to live the law of God, it wouldn't be enough to bring a remission of sins and salvation in the kingdom of God. 

 

Nephi worked so hard to persuade his children and brethren because he knew he needed to convince them that living the law of Moses wasn't enough, teaching them that the only way anyone can be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ and be reconciled to God the Father though His infinite atonement -- human effort is not enough to justify of sanctify any man. King Benjamin teaches the same doctrine:

 

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. (Mosiah 2)

 

The episode of the wealthy ruler in Luke in Luke 18 serves as a perfect example of what Nephi was trying to convey:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me (but he didn't; his good deeds weren't sufficient to save him)

Edited August 13, 2014 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

    AMEM TO THAT !.

 

In His Debt/Grace

     Anakin7

[coolrok7]

I can't answer everyone at once so I'll get to each when I can. Anakin7, Char is not Lutheran but of the Foursquare denomination.

It would also be helpful to keep in mind that I'm attempting to address the official teaching of the General Authorities, not necessarily any particular individuals views although I do attempt to address these as well.

Another point, I'm often accused of misrepresentation. I disagree, especially when I'm quoting their own literature.

[Anakin7]

    Coolrok7 I thought she told me years ago she and her husband were Lutheran, perhaps I got her church worship confused with someone else.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[coolrok7]

You thought wrong on this point I think. Char writes in a booklet of her experience in which she tells of her love of Jesus and her calling in giving witness to Mormons. She writes:

 

 

 

. . .Forty-six years ago (I was 34 at the time), two Mormon Missionaries came to my door. It was the first time I had ever seen a Mormon Missionary. I was born and raised Presbyterian in a little town in Ohio, so I knew nothing about Mormonism. The missionaries told me my baptism did me no good, that the Christian church went into a total apostasy and was restored by Joseph Smith, and that the Mormon Church was the only true church on the earth. They gave me a pamphlet telling the story of Joseph Smith. . . .(Preface)

 

When I look back over my life I see the hand of God preparing me for the ministry He was going to call me to. I fell in love with Jesus when I was five years old in a little Presbyterian Church in Ashtabula, Ohio. . . .where I was taught the wonderful stories of Jesus." (MORMONS HOW GOD LOVES THEM (and how I do, too) CHARLOTTE PARDEE, Chapter 1, p.1)

 

If you could only hear the recording of phone messages where missionaries (we suspect) would use such unbecoming (for who they claim to be) terms such as "Charlotte the harlot" and other such things. Why don't you come by sometimes and I could let you possibly listen to them (I would have to clear that through Char first though) and discuss these other things in person you raise all the time. I'm game as your not that far away. I'm there every fourth Saturday if you would like to come by, 12-5pm.

 

I'll be on vacation next Saturday so I won't be there. In  September I will.

Edited August 16, 2014 by coolrok7