Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Vance]

As I said, it appears that Paul didn't think they were saved.

That doesn't address the issue.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

I'm not claiming anything. I quoted what was written. And it doesn't say just utter words. I think there was something in there about believing in ones heart.  

 

 

 

The point is that more is required than just belief. Per Paul.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That doesn't address the issue.

So Paul just go it wrong here? Rofl.

[Vance]

The point is that more is required than just belief. Per Paul.

And per Jesus.

[danielwoods]

God's elect has a very different meaning in Mormon thought, and definitely doesn't refer to membership in general.  So, no, I don't think Peter was addressing all members and telling them they had a "priesthood of believers".

 

The question of context doesn't ask the question, "what is the meaning in Mormon thought" rather it asks what did Peter mean by his usage of the word? 

 

God's Elect means all believers, in that context. 

[danielwoods]

So, is that why he said this?

 

1 Pet 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

"Love the BROTHERHOOD"?

 

And how about this one?

 

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

 

"unfeigned love of the BRETHREN"?

 

And then later he adds in the women

 

1 Pet 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;

 

Because they were not included when he was mentioning the priesthood.

 

So, clearly he was NOT addressing all believers when he mentioned the priesthood, but was addressing ONLY the "brethren" or "brotherhood".

 

I guess your right. If we ignore who he stated he's writing to. 

 

That doesn't address the issue.

 

Your issue? 

 

Paul doesn't state explicitly why he did what he did, other than his pattern of preaching to those who were lost (or not saved) and reconciling them to God. 

[danielwoods]

The point is that more is required than just belief. Per Paul.

 

I'm not sure what straw dragon your slaying. Maybe the one where some might claim that all you need is to believe to be saved?

 

And certainly your point is noted, but it doesn't mean much coming from a group of people that have a long list of "must do's" in order to attain exultation. 

 

Because even if we think about it hypothetically, what does one say about one who is unable to speak? Can they not be saved? The point is that faith and belief in one's heart is all that the scriptures ever point to as establishing a relationship with God. 

[Vance]

I guess your right. If we ignore who he stated he's writing to.

It was a very patriarchal society, And the pattern is that is was men that lead in the church.  So, a letter to "the Church" would have been written to the male leadership.  It did include a messages to subgroups within the Church.

 

But I understand you HAVE to ignore everything that goes against your preconceptions.

 

Your issue?

Not "my" issue.  It was Paul's (and the Lord's) issue.

 

But, as usual, you ignore the obvious, because it goes against your preconceptions.

 

Paul doesn't state explicitly why he did what he did . .

Nope, but it is obvious that they were believers BEFORE he baptized them.

 

It is OBVIOUS that who ever baptized them the first time didn't do it right.

 

It is OBVIOUS that the questions Paul asked and the answers given had SIGNIFICANT meaning.

 

 

. . ., other than his pattern of preaching to those who were lost (or not saved) and reconciling them to God

So believers can still be "lost".  That is good to know.  And the implications to your theology are very far reaching and damaging.  Believing alone is NOT enough, because those believers, according to you, were not saved.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Vance

[Mudcat]

I am not asking if Mormons are Christians.  I know that's  been debated ad nauseam.  I am asking if it is possible for ANY mormon to be a Christian.

 

If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved.

 

I am very familiar with the standard arguments against this concept.  That I worship a different Jesus.  That to be Mormon I must believe in being saved by works and therefore can't receive God's grace.  What I am getting at is, is it possible for any one Mormon to be a Christian in your eyes (and presumably in the eyes of God) while still remaining a Mormon.  What would have to happen in order for this to be the case?

 

(btw - I am not baiting anyone here.  I am attending a Christian university and have been absolutely blown away by how well my Christian friends treat their Mormon classmates.  This really got me thinking about this.)

Hard question to answer with any specifity. Christ ultimately knows who are and who are not his sheep.  Just saying that  I think It's possible that I could be so off the mark with my own belief and faith that I may not be Christian, though I passionately believe that I am. Given that, I can only say that it may be the same for others, as well. We are all certainly capable of making judgements to who we think is or isn't something, but our judgements don't have any impact salvifically.

 

That out of the way... Yes I think Mormons can be Christians, likely quite a bunch of them are. Best we can do is judge by a persons fruits and the LDS I know seem to be fruitfully productive.

 

Many think if a Mormon is a Christian that somehow they will eventually be led from the CoJCoLDS to a straighter path. I don't know that is quite right, though it's certainly possible.

 

Best I can tell, this whole idea of being a Christian has a lot more to do with the very simple idea of being like Christ in how we express ourselves to other people rather than a specific theological or soteriological subset of beliefs. Letting the Holy Spirit work through you to reveal the light of Christ to others.

 

Whoever said "the devil is in the details" was likely on to something. Christlike behavior is a supernatural outflow to being a Christian, people act that way because that is what they have become through grace.

 

I do imagine there are a lot of folks that have the cart before the horse, acting "Christlike" because we feel must meet some specific guidelines on the matter has a person putting their faith in guidelines rather than faith in Christ. I worry about those sort of folks, they are in churches everywhere I suppose. I don't mind saying that LDS beliefs seem fairly legalistic among other things and I could see how that could actually impede a person in the path to faith.

 

Don't want to launch an overwhelming criticism, what do I know anyways.

 

Regards,

 

Mudcat

[danielwoods]

It was a very patriarchal society, And the pattern is that is was men that lead in the church.  So, a letter to "the Church" would have been written to the male leadership.  It did include a messages to subgroups within the Church.

 

But I understand you HAVE to ignore everything that goes against your preconceptions.

 

 

Not "my" issue.  It was Paul's (and the Lord's) issue.

 

But, as usual, you ignore the obvious, because it goes against your preconceptions.

 

 

 

Nope, but it is obvious that they were believers BEFORE he baptized them.

 

It is OBVIOUS that who ever baptized them the first time didn't do it right.

 

It is OBVIOUS that the questions Paul asked and the answers given had SIGNIFICANT meaning.

 

 

 

 

So believers can still be "lost".  That is good to know.  And the implications to your theology are very far reaching and damaging.  Believing alone is NOT enough, because those believers, according to you, were not saved.

 

I guess if you ignore what I said, you could say that. 

 

Paul obviously didn't think they were believers. They had the baptism (and belief) of the last OT prophet, John the Baptist, not the belief in Jesus to salvation. 

[coolrok7]

Tacenda, when one opens the door to allow the missionaries in to have a discussion, as I did quite a few years ago, I wasn't being antagonistic, I was truly listening to what they had to say, already having a sincere belief in God as a Lutheran Christian. It was through that and many other discussions (as they used to be called) that I came to the view I hold to that Joseph Smith is not a true "Prophet" of the Biblical God.

 

Mormons are entitled to their belief but not to distort the truth of what I personally believe as they did in these discussions as well as their literature and not really answer the questions I had that they asked of me (they still don't as they still come to my house in which they are always welcome to do so).

 

When God through those who penned what has come down to us as Scripture (The Bible) all things are to be tested (angels included) with what it says in which all believers are instructed to do.

 

May I ask what "full faith" in what did you mean?

[Vance]

Paul obviously didn't think they were believers.

Not true, he specifically called them believers.

 

They had the baptism (and belief) of the last OT prophet, John the Baptist,. . .

1) John the Baptist was not an Old Testament prophet.  He is a New Testament prophet.

2) Jesus had the Baptism of John the Baptist.

 

not the belief in Jesus to salvation.

By your logic Jesus could not have been a believer either.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

Best I can tell, this whole idea of being a Christian has a lot more to do with the very simple idea of being like Christ in how we express ourselves to other people rather than a specific theological or soteriological subset of beliefs. Letting the Holy Spirit work through you to reveal the light of Christ to others.

 

YES!!!!

 

Orthopraxy over Orthodoxy!!!

Edited July 13, 2014 by Vance

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, when one opens the door to allow the missionaries in to have a discussion, as I did quite a few years ago, I wasn't being antagonistic, I was truly listening to what they had to say, already having a sincere belief in God as a Lutheran Christian. It was through that and many other discussions (as they used to be called) that I came to the view I hold to that Joseph Smith is not a true "Prophet" of the Biblical God.

Mormons are entitled to their belief but not to distort the truth of what I personally believe as they did in these discussions as well as their literature and not really answer the questions I had that they asked of me (they still don't as they still come to my house in which they are always welcome to do so).

When God through those who penned what has come down to us as Scripture (The Bible) all things are to be tested (angels included) with what it says in which all believers are instructed to do.

May I ask what "full faith" in what did you mean?

Coolroc, I know I have partimers or sometimers disease, but for the life of me I don't know what you're talking about, was it someone else that said that? If not, will you give me a post number to refer to? Edited July 13, 2014 by Tacenda

[coolrok7]

Sorry Tacenda, post #26 on page 2, I should have quoted (for clarification), "running back to full faith". So full faith in what?

[Tacenda]

Sorry Tacenda, post #26 on page 2, I should have quoted (for clarification), "running back to full faith". So full faith in what?

I said this:

 

"Coolroc7, this definitely explains the antagonistic behaviour towards the LDS belief system that abounds and explains their reaction to family members that want to join the church.

It's also a hurdle for my running back to full belief. Too bad we have these tricky angels, makes me want to scream because how does one know what is true if the angels can trick like that? And it doesn't help me to believe in a maker that would do that."  

 

Full faith that the church is true I guess.  The faith that I had that I was taught to believe it's true from birth.  The faith that my ancestors had when they crossed the plains with the Martin handcart company.   That kind of full faith.  The faith that no matter what the leaders did wrong, the LDS teachings are the gospel truth. 

 

Now I have partial faith that all is well in Zion.  I go to church each Sunday and look around at the ward and it indeed looks like all is well in Zion.  I come on this and other boards, where people really delve into their religion, as in let it consume them and I see that all isn't well as far as correct history, or a little white washing of history that will of course provide a story book religion.  That's where I'm at now.  I just want the church to be unafraid to show the truth.  Let the truth guide us and come unto Christ without the crutch of the church. Let it be the individual and the Lord in that order, not the individual, the church and then the Lord. 

 

In Sacrament meeting today, I came home afterwards since the young man I help wasn't there.  There were some youth speakers that gave talks and bore testimony of the church being true, and Pres. Monson was a true prophet.  But did I hear that they had a relationship with the Saviour?  Hardly ever, that is what I worry about.  Did JS have the right spirit/spirits visit him in the grove that day? I do believe that good institutions can be guided by the Lord however, and maybe that's how it's suppose to be.  I believe that the body of Christ is many faiths.  So I guess I'm far from having the full faith that we are the only true church.  Or Christ's only church.           

[coolrok7]

Thanks Tacenda, I appreciate your response in that it gives me more understanding of your view of things. I'll get back to you later.

[EllenMaksoud]

I am not asking if Mormons are Christians.  I know that's  been debated ad nauseam.  I am asking if it is possible for ANY mormon to be a Christian.

 

If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved.

 

I am very familiar with the standard arguments against this concept.  That I worship a different Jesus.  That to be Mormon I must believe in being saved by works and therefore can't receive God's grace.  What I am getting at is, is it possible for any one Mormon to be a Christian in your eyes (and presumably in the eyes of God) while still remaining a Mormon.  What would have to happen in order for this to be the case?

 

(btw - I am not baiting anyone here.  I am attending a Christian university and have been absolutely blown away by how well my Christian friends treat their Mormon classmates.  This really got me thinking about this.)

Frankly, that non-Mormons would say that Mormons are not Christians should be of minor concern to you because those who say so speak from profound ignorance.

[phi39]

"If I accept Christ as my savior, can I be a Christian?  If I accept the Christ of the Bible as my Savior.  If I have a personal relationship with him, know that I am a sinner, and know that it is by his grace that I am saved."

 

Hello, here's a seminary student's answer:

 

To these questions I would say, 'Yes and therefore no.'  Yes, if you accept the Christ of the Bible as your savior, acknowledging your sins and trusting in his work on the cross to save you from judgement and admit you into the family of God, then at that moment you would be a Christian.  Your membership would still be in the LDS church, but you would be a Christian at heart.

 

I have heard a few testimonies from people who came out of the LDS church, who were essentially Christians for some time before they finally left.  I also attended Mormon funeral once for a young woman who died suddenly, and they read a few excerpts from her journal.  Aside from affirming the Joseph Smith was a true prophet (I don't think that in and of itself could be a disqualifier), it sure sounded like she had a saving faith: there was no reference to her efforts in salvation (she understood it entirely relied on Him).  I have also encountered Mormons who hold very orthodox views on the nature of God.  However, this thinking that I have found in individual Mormons is trending away from traditional LDS teachings.

 

So I think it is possible for a Mormon to be a Christian at heart, but the moment that happens they are no longer a Mormon at heart.  It would not be long after that before they were outwardly Christian as well.  A changed heart will always lead to different words, actions and loyalties.  On the flip side, there are many Christians who are not Christians at heart, but only outwardly.  Though they may even think they believers because they accept the right doctrines, they are functional atheists.  

 

So yes, I do believe a Mormon can be a Christian, but not in the same sense at the same time.  You must come to terms with the fact the Mormon concepts of Christ, Salvation, the Bible, Sin and Grace are completely different from the Christian concept.  The question is who understands those words correctly, that is, who is reading the Bible correctly and who has the authority to do do so.  The minute you accepted the Christian definitions in faith you would cease to be a Mormon, strictly speaking.

 

And I hope all of you would.  There is a God to delight in whom you have not known.

[Vance]

The question is who understands those words correctly, that is, who is reading the Bible correctly and who has the authority to do do(SIC) so.

That right there is an excellent point.

So, then, that begs the question, "How or where does one get the authority to do so?"

[Kaleb Webb]

Are Christians Jewish? They believe in the same God and try to follow the ten commandments just like Jews do, so does that mean that they're Jewish?

[phi39]

Are Christians Jewish? They believe in the same God and try to follow the ten commandments just like Jews do, so does that mean that they're Jewish?

Nope, that just means they know what's good for them

[phi39]

That right there is an excellent point.

So, then, that begs the question, "How or where does one get the authority to do so?"

I didn't intend any question begging.  I only meant to mark where this issue ends: we both claim authority.  From this point it is jousting match to to prove/disprove Joseph Smith's validity against the witness of scripture as we have received it.  But that is another thread, and I believe someone else has it covered right now (I read something about how Smith should be regarded as a fallen prophet, yet still a conduit of truth from God(?).

[Storm Rider]

......

 

So yes, I do believe a Mormon can be a Christian, but not in the same sense at the same time.  You must come to terms with the fact the Mormon concepts of Christ, Salvation, the Bible, Sin and Grace are completely different from the Christian concept.  The question is who understands those words correctly, that is, who is reading the Bible correctly and who has the authority to do do so.  The minute you accepted the Christian definitions in faith you would cease to be a Mormon, strictly speaking.

 

And I hope all of you would.  There is a God to delight in whom you have not known.

 

Hello Phi,

 

Good to have you here.  What seminary are you attending?  Just curious.

 

I deleted the sections above only because I want to focus on that second to the last paragraph.  You are saying a lot there that I suspect you might want to qualify.  Based upon what you have said it would seem clear that the first apostles could not properly be called Christians because their discussions (the gospels) that address Christ, salvation, Bible, Sin, and Grace are quite different from what you would believe today.  However, Jesus and the first Apostles made no such qualifiers that you could only be a disciple of Christ if you believed these specific things. No where does Christ provide any kind of list as you have done above.

 

What it would appear you are saying is that it is not really interpretation of the Bible, but your traditions of the teachings of the Bible with a special focus on Romans.  

 

This question is one that Protestants, specifically the Evangelicals, and LDS have been having for quite some time.  What is clear to me is that based on the words of Christ or even the entire Bible, it is impossible to come of with a specific list of beliefs that Jesus or the first Apostles taught that a follower must believe to be a Christian.  So they either need to excluded from the list of true Christians or we need to qualify these types of statements.  It is valid to state LDS have no part in the historical Christian Church.  That does open a rather messy can of worms when a Protestant is involved because they all must look to Rome as their mother Church and then it is an issue of who is right or wrong between them.  

 

Finally, what I am most grateful for is that none of us need to judge our fellow man on his merit or degree of Christianity; that belongs to our Master, Jesus Christ.  

 

Best of luck in your studies,

[MiserereNobis]

That right there is an excellent point.

So, then, that begs the question, "How or where does one get the authority to do so?"

 

(pet peeve:  "begs the question" refers to the logical fallacy of circular reasoning)

 

Answer:  Thank God for the Papacy and that the keys of the kingdom were given to St. Peter, Bishop of Rome, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, and to his successors in perpetuity!  All authority flows from Christ to His Apostles and to their successors, as governed by St. Peter and his successors.

 

"and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."