Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The "keys" given to the church are keys of knowledge and access to God. Which all believers have. 

 

 

 

Don't see in there where it states that the keys are only given to one group of special people. 

No that is not what the keys are. When Peter was given keys what keys was he given?

 

The way you have set it up only believers are given knowledge and access to God. So how would an unbeliever gain this knowledge?

 

Keys restrict access. Why have a key if every one could have it? Consider that when you try to rebut what I had just stated.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

 

Don't see in there where it states that the keys are only given to one group of special people. 

Does every get the same gifts?

 

Context of Vance's arguments have nothing to do with keys but the idea that God treats every one equal in all things.

 

[danielwoods]

No that is not what the keys are. When Peter was given keys what keys was he given?

 

The way you have set it up only believers are given knowledge and access to God. So how would an unbeliever gain this knowledge?

 

Keys restrict access. Why have a key if every one could have it? Consider that when you try to rebut what I had just stated.

 

Not every has access to God because not everyone believes and follows Christ. 

 

Does every get the same gifts?

 

Context of Vance's arguments have nothing to do with keys but the idea that God treats every one equal in all things.

 

 

And yet at the end Paul says to desire (covet) the best gifts, implication is that we all have access to the gifts is we desire them. 

[Vance]

The "keys" given to the church are keys of knowledge and access to God. Which all believers have.

Those are NOT the keys given to Peter and the Apostles.

The keys given to the Apostles (and not to the Church in general).

To Peter here.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.  

 

And to the rest of the apostles here

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Don't see in there where it states that the keys are only given to one group of special people.

So, Jesus saying it to a group of special people, as I have shown above, doesn't qualify?

What you REALLY DON'T SEE in there where it states that the keys are given to the "Church" in general.

OOPS! There goes "sola scriptura" under the anti-Mormon bus, AGAIN.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

Those are NOT the keys given to Peter and the Apostles.

The keys given to the Apostles (and not to the Church in general).

To Peter here.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.  

 

And to the rest of the apostles here

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

So, Jesus saying it to a group of special people, as I have shown above, doesn't qualify?

What you REALLY DON'T SEE in there where it states that the keys are given to the "Church" in general.

OOPS! There goes "sola scriptura" under the anti-Mormon bus, AGAIN.

 

Inorder for your argument to hold any weight you need a portion of scripture that states that it's *not* for the rest of the believers, only the Apostles. It never says that. Actually, the principle throughout the NT is that Jesus ministers to and communicates to his church through who ever is willing. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

[Vance]

Inorder for your argument to hold any weight you need a portion of scripture that states that it's *not* for the rest of the believers, only the Apostles.

Actually, that is not how it works. The burden of proof is on you. Clearly the scriptures show that the keys were given to the Apostles. The scriptures do NOT show that the keys were given to anyone else.

In addition to that, I would just point out to you that YOUR doctrine of "sola scriptura" dictates that if it is not in the scriptures then it is not valid.

It never says that.

See above.

Actually, the principle throughout the NT is that Jesus ministers to and communicates to his church through who ever is willing.

Except for the instances when He communicated to Peter and the Twelve. See here,

Acts 6, The Twelve call and set apart/ordain 7 men to care for the needs of the poor of the Church.

And here,

Acts 10, Peter receives revelation from the Lord that the gospel is to be preached to the Gentiles.

And here,

Acts 15, Peter leads the twelve and elders to an official declaration FOR THE CHURCH about circumcision.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Writes the APOSTLE JOHN. Which is evidence against your assertion rather than support for it.

[danielwoods]

Actually, that is not how it works. The burden of proof is on you. Clearly the scriptures show that the keys were given to the Apostles. The scriptures do NOT show that the keys were given to anyone else.

In addition to that, I would just point out to you that YOUR doctrine of "sola scriptura" dictates that if it is not in the scriptures then it is not valid.

See above.

Except for the instances when He communicated to Peter and the Twelve. See here,

Acts 6, The Twelve call and set apart/ordain 7 men to care for the needs of the poor of the Church.

And here,

Acts 10, Peter receives revelation from the Lord that the gospel is to be preached to the Gentiles.

And here,

Acts 15, Peter leads the twelve and elders to an official declaration FOR THE CHURCH about circumcision.

Writes the APOSTLE JOHN. Which is evidence against your assertion rather than support for it.

 

The interesting thing is that you think you're using solo scripture (which you don't believe in anyway) to disprove the idea that all believers have the priesthood and keys to the kingdom. 

 

What you are in fact doing is using your own viewpoint and interpretation disguised as "solo scripture" in an attempt to disprove the idea. 

 

I only wish the best for you Vance. 

 

The counter argument is to understand that the concepts and ideas weren't only given to the Apostles. The Apostles were the ones leading the people. 

[Vance]

The interesting thing is that you think you're using solo scripture (which you don't believe in anyway) to disprove the idea that all believers have the priesthood and keys to the kingdom.

 No, the interesting thing is that you are ignoring "sola scriptura", which you claim is doctrine, to argue for ideas not found in the Bible and that did not exist until the time of Martin Luther.

 

What you are in fact doing is using your own viewpoint and interpretation disguised as "solo scripture" in an attempt to disprove the idea.

And what you are in fact doing is using your own viewpoint and interpretation to disguise what the Bible clearly and plainly shows. 

 

I only wish the best for you Vance.

As I wish for you.

 

The counter argument is to understand that the concepts and ideas weren't only given to the Apostles.

Even though the scriptures provide no evidence that the keys were given to anyone else.

 

The Apostles were the ones leading the people.

On this, we can agree. They led the people in part because they had the keys to the kingdom and others did not. Edited July 8, 2014 by Vance

[Flyonthewall]

Your reference to the OT changes the subject. Not applicable to the Church, did we receive the spirit by the law?

The reference to the OT is another example of a statement made that is seemingly all inclusive, but in actuality is not.

 

The church was given the keys to the kingdom to know what was is/was legal (loosed) and illegal (bound) already by Heaven.

The church was given the keys by means of the keys being given to the Apostles, and the Apostles lead the church.

I disagree with your interpretation of the binding and loose-ing power that was given. I agree to a certain extent that the binding power must agree with the will of God, but that does not mean something has already been done in heaven. How can someone be baptized on earth, but already have been baptized in heaven?

Simply put the Apostles were given the authority to perform ordinances and to govern the church.

Not just anybody can perform ordinances, they have to have the proper authority to do so.

In that same vein, not just anybody can govern the church, but only those given the proper authority.

The keys of the kingdom are that governing authority. That governing authority is in the priesthood.

John 15:16 shows that not just anyone takes the priesthood, but only those that have been chosen and ordained.

You brought up Matthew 18, but I see in that book the lesson Jesus taught to the Apostles on how He expects them to lead and govern the church. They should not "Lord over" the church but be servants of the church membership. It is important to be meek in their leadership because their righteous decisions would be backed up by heaven.

[Flyonthewall]

I wish you guys would clarify how that verse is mistranslated and what you think is the accurate one.

Daniel provided a link that outlines what I believe to be a mistranslation.

The binding and loosing power is embedded in the priesthood, which gives those that hold authority to act in the place of God.

The ordinances they perform are binding on earth, and in heaven, because it was done with the proper authority - not because it was already done in heaven. It may be the will of God that that baptism be performed, but it has not happened yet.

The decisions made by those with the keys of the kingdom are upheld in heaven, because they have been given the proper authority to make those decisions. Since they are continually seeking the will of God, then their decisions will align with the will of God.

[danielwoods]

The reference to the OT is another example of a statement made that is seemingly all inclusive, but in actuality is not.

 

The church was given the keys by means of the keys being given to the Apostles, and the Apostles lead the church.

I disagree with your interpretation of the binding and loose-ing power that was given. I agree to a certain extent that the binding power must agree with the will of God, but that does not mean something has already been done in heaven. How can someone be baptized on earth, but already have been baptized in heaven?

Simply put the Apostles were given the authority to perform ordinances and to govern the church.

Not just anybody can perform ordinances, they have to have the proper authority to do so.

In that same vein, not just anybody can govern the church, but only those given the proper authority.

The keys of the kingdom are that governing authority. That governing authority is in the priesthood.

John 15:16 shows that not just anyone takes the priesthood, but only those that have been chosen and ordained.

You brought up Matthew 18, but I see in that book the lesson Jesus taught to the Apostles on how He expects them to lead and govern the church. They should not "Lord over" the church but be servants of the church membership. It is important to be meek in their leadership because their righteous decisions would be backed up by heaven.

 

 

You asked how can someone be baptized on earth, but already have been baptized in heaven? 

 

Your question exposes the problems with interpreting the passage as you do. I can't answer that question for you since I don't believe that the keys bestow any power or authority. Rather, the keys simply are representative of access to knowledge from Heaven. 

 

Suffice it to say, we disagree. The biblical text does not state that you have to have a "governing authority" to baptize or anything else. Rather, the biblical text says that all believers have the priesthood and the same access to God, through Christ. 

[danielwoods]

Daniel provided a link that outlines what I believe to be a mistranslation.

The binding and loosing power is embedded in the priesthood, which gives those that hold authority to act in the place of God.

The ordinances they perform are binding on earth, and in heaven, because it was done with the proper authority - not because it was already done in heaven. It may be the will of God that that baptism be performed, but it has not happened yet.

The decisions made by those with the keys of the kingdom are upheld in heaven, because they have been given the proper authority to make those decisions. Since they are continually seeking the will of God, then their decisions will align with the will of God.

 

 

Only problem with this interpretation is that the text is in the past tense, "shall be having been bound" in heaven. (simple future [tense] followed by a perfect participle passive)

 

If a simple future passive had been used it would agree with Flyonthewall's interpretation. 

 

The example of Acts 10 and 15 where Peter receives revelation about what is legal now, is a better example of the "use of the keys". In my opinion of course. Your milage may vary.

[Flyonthewall]

You asked how can someone be baptized on earth, but already have been baptized in heaven? 

 

Your question exposes the problems with interpreting the passage as you do. I can't answer that question for you since I don't believe that the keys bestow any power or authority. Rather, the keys simply are representative of access to knowledge from Heaven. 

 

Suffice it to say, we disagree. The biblical text does not state that you have to have a "governing authority" to baptize or anything else. Rather, the biblical text says that all believers have the priesthood and the same access to God, through Christ.

My questions only exposes problems with your interpretation, not mine/ours.

The biblical text does not say all believers have the priesthood, but rather "... no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron."

But one thing you are correct on is that we disagree.

[Vance]

Suffice it to say, we disagree. The biblical text does not state that you have to have a "governing authority" to baptize or anything else. Rather, the biblical text says that all believers have the priesthood and the same access to God, through Christ.

Well, the Apostle Paul would disagree.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

If anyone can baptize anyway they want, then why did Paul not accept the first so-called baptism and do the proper baptism of these twelve men?

Edited July 9, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

My questions only exposes problems with your interpretation, not mine/ours.

The biblical text does not say all believers have the priesthood, but rather "... no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron."

But one thing you are correct on is that we disagree.

 

It's not my interpretation that declares the difficult reading, but the actual tenses of the words used in the greek text.

 

 

Biblical text - 1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

 

All believers = holy priesthood. 

[danielwoods]

Well, the Apostle Paul would disagree.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

If anyone can baptize anyway they want, then why did Paul not accept the first so-called baptism and do the proper baptism of these twelve men?

 

Evidently Paul didn't think they were saved. 

[Vance]

Evidently Paul didn't think they were saved.

I am glad to see that you agree that baptism is essential to being saved. I suspect that you didn't realize that you were agreeing with that.

I think it is obvious that you are missing the point here. They OBVIOUSLY believed, for Paul express that with the phrase "since ye believed".

So, of believing is all that is required for salvation then they met the requirements.

But that still misses the point. They were believers AND they had been baptized. But based on the answers to Paul's questions Paul realized that they had not been baptized by the proper authority. (Because, obviously, a person with the proper authority would have had the correct teachings regarding the Holy Ghost, which they had not received.) Thus Paul, who did not support the doing of useless things (like circumcision) INSISTED upon them being baptized by the proper authority in the proper way.

[danielwoods]

I am glad to see that you agree that baptism is essential to being saved. I suspect that you didn't realize that you were agreeing with that.

I think it is obvious that you are missing the point here. They OBVIOUSLY believed, for Paul express that with the phrase "since ye believed".

So, of believing is all that is required for salvation then they met the requirements.

But that still misses the point. They were believers AND they had been baptized. But based on the answers to Paul's questions Paul realized that they had not been baptized by the proper authority. (Because, obviously, a person with the proper authority would have had the correct teachings regarding the Holy Ghost, which they had not received.) Thus Paul, who did not support the doing of useless things (like circumcision) INSISTED upon them being baptized by the proper authority in the proper way.

 

Funny that Paul never said that, ever. "Proper authority…" he did say, "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." and"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

[Vance]

Funny that Paul never said that, ever.

Well, if it wasn't about proper authority, then WHY did he have to (re-)Baptize those men?

 

he did say, "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." and"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Yes, and if you REALLY believe on the Lord Jesus, then you will REALLY obey him.

Just for kicks sometime, you should read the 4 Gospels and keep track of all of the "DO" type of statements that Jesus makes. You know, statements like,

"Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"Follow me,"

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

"when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

"Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites"

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;"

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

BTW

strait

1.channel joining large bodies of water: a narrow body of water that joins two larger bodies of water

2.difficult situation: a situation that is difficult or involves hardship

3.narrow or confined: narrow or with very little room

Then come back and tell me about it.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Funny that Paul never said that, ever. "Proper authority…" he did say, "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." and"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

So all you are claiming is that I need to utter some words from my mouth to be saved? I cannot just believe but I have to utter some words?

 Sorry could not resist. You are quoting Paul to tell us to do a work to be saved.

[JLHPROF]

Biblical text - 1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

 

All believers = holy priesthood. 

 

It is an assumption that those Peter was addressing weren't holders of priesthood (aka, had been ordained by authority).  There is no indication in 1 Peter that he was talking to the entire membership.

 

All believers do not hold the priesthood and they never have scripturally.

[danielwoods]

Well, if it wasn't about proper authority, then WHY did he have to (re-)Baptize those men?

 

Yes, and if you REALLY believe on the Lord Jesus, then you will REALLY obey him.

Just for kicks sometime, you should read the 4 Gospels and keep track of all of the "DO" type of statements that Jesus makes. You know, statements like,

"Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

"Follow me,"

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

"when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

"Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites"

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;"

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

BTW

Then come back and tell me about it.

 

Done that many times (read all four in one sitting). 

 

As I said, it appears that Paul didn't think they were saved.

[danielwoods]

So all you are claiming is that I need to utter some words from my mouth to be saved? I cannot just believe but I have to utter some words?

 Sorry could not resist. You are quoting Paul to tell us to do a work to be saved.

 

I'm not claiming anything. I quoted what was written. And it doesn't say just utter words. I think there was something in there about believing in ones heart.  

 

It is an assumption that those Peter was addressing weren't holders of priesthood (aka, had been ordained by authority).  There is no indication in 1 Peter that he was talking to the entire membership.

 

All believers do not hold the priesthood and they never have scripturally.

 

If we are discussing what the text says, and in context, then yes we do know that Peter was addressing all believers. 

 

"1:1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,  Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,  ² who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.^"

[JLHPROF]

If we are discussing what the text says, and in context, then yes we do know that Peter was addressing all believers.

 

 

"1:1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,  Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,  ² who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.^"

 

God's elect has a very different meaning in Mormon thought, and definitely doesn't refer to membership in general.  So, no, I don't think Peter was addressing all members and telling them they had a "priesthood of believers".

[Vance]

I'm not claiming anything. I quoted what was written. And it doesn't say just utter words. I think there was something in there about believing in ones heart.  

 

 

If we are discussing what the text says, and in context, then yes we do know that Peter was addressing all believers. 

 

"1:1  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus,  Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,  ² who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.^"

So, is that why he said this?

 

1 Pet 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

"Love the BROTHERHOOD"?

 

And how about this one?

 

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

 

"unfeigned love of the BRETHREN"?

 

And then later he adds in the women

 

1 Pet 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;

 

Because they were not included when he was mentioning the priesthood.

 

So, clearly he was NOT addressing all believers when he mentioned the priesthood, but was addressing ONLY the "brethren" or "brotherhood".

Edited July 11, 2014 by Vance