Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Flyonthewall]

I have already mentioned the fundamentals--which is also what differentiates Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism.

 

1.  Belief in the true living God.

 

2.  Follow His plan that He has laid out.

I must have missed where you mentioned the fundamentals of your faith...I have only seen where you disagree with some of our peripheral teachings.

Now that I see you have listed them, which of our fundamentals principles are in conflict with your fundamental principles? Is it the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets concerning Jesus Christ? or is it that Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day, and ascended to heaven?

I would be interested in hearing what plan you profess has been laid out. I have yet to hear that Evangelicals actually believe in a plan.

[JLHPROF]

I have already mentioned the fundamentals--which is also what differentiates Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism.

 

1.  Belief in the true living God.

 

2.  Follow His plan that He has laid out.

 

Oh, now come on.  You know you don't believe in #2.  That means salvation by works.  All you have to do is accept Christ as our Savior to be saved right?

Evangelicals don't believe you have to keep any commandments to be saved.  Isn't that right?

 

I know that it's considered good to do #2, but you don't consider #2 vital to salvation if I understand correctly.

[Canadaigua]

Oh, now come on.  You know you don't believe in #2.  That means salvation by works.  All you have to do is accept Christ as our Savior to be saved right?

Evangelicals don't believe you have to keep any commandments to be saved.  Isn't that right?

 

I know that it's considered good to do #2, but you don't consider #2 vital to salvation if I understand correctly.

"You know you don't believe in #2.  That means salvation by works."

 

We certainly are given commandments and EV's believe that we should keep those commandments but salvation is based on faith and not by works.  This is completely opposition to the LDS position where salvation/exalation is based on faith and a long list of works

[danielwoods]

One of the questions that runs through my mind as I follow this thread is how much error does God allow?

 

 

It seems to me that he must allow quite a bit of error (because of his Grace). The differences among us are fairly large, yet we get close on a few things. 

 

For example, is there but one God? Or many gods? 

 

Does it effect our salvation if we are wrong? Ultimately, it's God himself who is judge, not me or anyone else. 

 

If I was to venture a guess, I would guess that God judges us based on what light we've been shown. Judges us against our own understanding, what he has revealed to us and what we understand to be true. 

[Canadaigua]

I must have missed where you mentioned the fundamentals of your faith...I have only seen where you disagree with some of our peripheral teachings.

At the expense of being repetitive (I know that our North Campus Bruin poster will likely try and point this out) our disagreement is not "peripheral" but rather central to the two most important points that separates you and I.  In other posts on this thread I have given elaborated on some of our differences.

 

Namely:

 

1.  Belief in a different God

2.  Belief in a different gospel

[JLHPROF]

"You know you don't believe in #2.  That means salvation by works."

 

We certainly are given commandments and EV's believe that we should keep those commandments but salvation is based on faith and not by works. 

 

Why keep the commandments then?  It means nothing to your salvation.  There is absolutely no reason for any EV to keep any commandment.  They'll be saved in heaven either way.  God says "Thou Shalt Not Steal" but you can go steal all you want and Christ paid for it so you will still be saved by believing Christ paid for it.

You have no need for commandments, despite the fact the Savior himself said only those who love him will be saved and that only those who keep his commandments love him.  Christ himself taught clearly that works are necessary for salvation.  He taught it clearly in the Bible.

[Storm Rider]

At the expense of being repetitive (I know that our North Campus Bruin poster will likely try and point this out) our disagreement is not "peripheral" but rather central to the two most important points that separates you and I.  In other posts on this thread I have given elaborated on some of our differences.

 

Namely:

 

1.  Belief in a different God

2.  Belief in a different gospel

 

So if I believe that Jesus lived and died for me; that he was the Son of God; that he lived a perfect life; that he hung on the cross; and that he rose on the 3rd day; and that he is the only way anyone has to return to heaven, I believe in a different God than you do?  What God do you worship if it is different from mine?

[Tacenda]

At the expense of being repetitive (I know that our North Campus Bruin poster will likely try and point this out) our disagreement is not "peripheral" but rather central to the two most important points that separates you and I. In other posts on this thread I have given elaborated on some of our differences.

Namely:

1. Belief in a different God

2. Belief in a different gospel

You've repeated this umteen times, now when are you going to answer to the questions asked of you.

[Storm Rider]

Oft times some individuals are very good at telling others what they believe and why they are wrong; however, they are very weak in actually listening to answers that conflicts with their ideas about what others believe.  It prevents any real exchange and most of all, it prevents any process of actually learning about reality.  

 

Canned answers such as, "You believe in a different God" so good, but have nothing to do with reality.  It is impossible for some to get their heard around that Jesus, the Messiah and Son of God, actually saves all people.  I a Mormon calls on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; if a Mormon reaches in faith toward Jesus Christ somehow God is prevented from saving us.  It is one of those extremely odd predicaments where the saving grace of Jesus is canceled, overwhelmed, and canceled out because a Latter-day Saint goes to an LDS Church for worship services.  

 

How did Jesus become so weak?  If he cannot save a Mormon then I guess the vast majority of the world cannot be saved either.  This is one of those situations where I would say, "Evangelicals are right; I don't worship that god of weakness and utter futility." I join with the majority that believes that God has created a way for all who seek him to come to him and be washed in the blood of the Lamb.  

[LittleNipper]

It is possible for anyone to become a Christian. When one accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, he has come to the realization (through the Holy Spirit's leading) that he simply cannot earn a place in heaven --- his works are simply not "good enough." One must rely entirely on the Lord for his salvation. That individual will likely feel unsatisfied, and find areas of contention between what the Bible has to say and what religion says. The Holy Spirit will make the saved individual feel uneasy until he comes to follow the leading of God. If this does not happen that individual will not grow in the Lord as the Lord would have liked, and will remain enslaved to man designed dogma.

Edited September 11, 2014 by LittleNipper

[Vance]

There are dozens of verses that clearly teach that our salvation is based on faith and not works.

Yeah, yeah, they are all from Paul and "dozens" is an exaggeration and we both know it. Besides there are MORE verses that clearly indicate that good works/deeds/efforts are essential to eternal life. A lot of them came directly from Jesus' lips.

The problem you have is that Paul uses "works" to mean "works of the law of Moses" which is obvious from the context. Whereas other writers (and Jesus and even Paul) clearly teach that good works are necessary for eternal life.

I have ALWAYS found it humorous that the only verse in the Bible that has both "faith" and "alone" is this one.

James 2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not works, is dead, being ALONE.

Contrast this to what Mormonism teaches which is faith and lots of works in order to be exalted.

Which is consistent with the teachings of Jesus and all of his apostles (including Paul). The fact that you misinterpret/misunderstand a few verses written by Paul doesn't overcome the whole of these teachings.

These two viewpoints are completely opposite of each other and both can't be true.

Agreed.

This touches on the second main point that I have mentioned before  (1. In the true God of the Bible;

Which excludes the Trinitarian God developed centuries after the last Biblical writings.

2.  What God has laid out for us to do and what is required for salvation. )

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the "red letter" portion of the Bible instead of wallowing in those few misinterpreted verses of Paul, you might, just might get a clue.

 

BTW I disagree with your interpretation of the verses in Matthew 19.  If you like we can discuss them.

What? You have a discussion? I would have to see it to believe it.

[Tacenda]

It is possible for anyone to become a Christian. When one accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, he has come to the realization (through the Holy Spirit's leading) that he simply cannot earn a place in heaven --- his works are simply not "good enough." One must rely entirely on the Lord for his salvation. That individual will likely feel unsatisfied, and find areas of contention between what the Bible has to say and what religion says. The Holy Spirit will make the saved individual feel uneasy until he comes to follow the leading of God. If this does not happen that individual will not grow in the Lord as the Lord would have liked, and will remain enslaved to man designed dogma.

I think I'm in the throes of this...and on the edge. But why did I have an impenetrable belief in God while a faithful believing LDS, and now without that orthodox belief I am left with a so-so belief in God? Hopefully I'll figure it out somehow, separating the dogma from the truth.

I struggle with believing all the scriptures in the bible because they are men's interpretations. Do you believe every word, is that a big factor in getting a relationship for you?

[Vance]

This has everything to do with this thread.  See my posts just above and if you still don't understand I would be happy to try and explain it for you so you can understand it from the Evangelical point of view.

I have been dealing with Evangelicals for many years. I understand your point of view, and I see the giant holes in your theology and many inconsistencies it has with what the scriptures really teach.

If you think that getting us to see your point will convert us to it, you are wasting your time here. Save it for those that are ignorant of what we really believe. They might buy it.

Besides, I am glad to see you admit to the hypocritical nature of your complaints about what is and is not on topic.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

This is completely opposition to the LDS position where salvation/exalation is based on faith and a long list of works

"(A) long list of works"? LOL!!!!

Shall we delve into what Jesus taught about it? Or do you just want to repeat (ad nauseam) those very few verses from Paul that you misinterpret?

[Vance]

One of the questions that runs through my mind as I follow this thread is how much error does God allow?

Thank God He is merciful!!! He is more concerned with orthopraxy than orthodoxy.

It seems to me that he must allow quite a bit of error (because of his Grace). The differences among us are fairly large, yet we get close on a few things.

For example, is there but one God? Or many gods?

False dichotomy. The answer is YES and YES. (God is a plural noun, like family, and it represents a state of being rather than a being of state.) 

 

Does it effect our salvation if we are wrong? Ultimately, it's God himself who is judge, not me or anyone else.

He is more concerned with our actions than our beliefs. 

 

If I was to venture a guess, I would guess that God judges us based on what light we've been shown. Judges us against our own understanding, what he has revealed to us and what we understand to be true.

And how we live up to that "light" we have been shown. Edited September 11, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

1.  Belief in a different God

2.  Belief in a different gospel

Got it. The extra-Biblical trinatarian God, versus the True Biblical God. And the gospel based on the misinterpretations of a few of Paul's verses, versus the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yes, very different indeed.

[JLHPROF]

Namely:

 

1.  Belief in a different God

2.  Belief in a different gospel

 

Yes, I do.  But I still believe mine is the more accurately called Christian.

In the end, the issue isn't whether Mormons are Christian.  It's who has the right to be called Christian.

 

And since I as a Mormon believe that my form of Christianity is more doctrinally and scripturally correct than the evangelical form, then I say I am a Christian and Evangelicals are the ones that aren't Christian.

 

I think the Christianity Joseph Smith restored to the earth is more in keeping with the teachings of Christ than the misinterpreting of Paul done by most evangelical sects.

 

Maybe Mormons should run around saying evangelicals aren't Christian for a while...

Edited September 11, 2014 by JLHPROF

[coolrok7]

Vance, incorrect as usual. The Mormon explanation for God is much different from the Biblical teaching concerning God and His Word while using much of the same terminology.

Going back to Anakin7 and his description of God. You will not find his desription there. On my lunch break, back later.

[danielwoods]

Thank God He is merciful!!! He is more concerned with orthopraxy than orthodoxy.

False dichotomy. The answer is YES and YES. (God is a plural noun, like family, and it represents a state of being rather than a being of state.) 

 

He is more concerned with our actions than our beliefs. 

 

And how we live up to that "light" we have been shown.

 

The question is when we disagree (which we do) how much error does God tolerate?

 

Even among Evangelicals there is a variance of degree of error (in my opinion), which in my opinion leads to the real question (in relation to who is a christian or not) is are they connected directly to God or not? 

 

What I mean is, even if a person claims to be evangelical (as an example), and does all the "right" things, but doesn't care to really connect with God directly. What difference does it make if they don't have a direct connection (relationship) to God? Do those "right" things save him? 

 

On the other extreme what if a Buddhist doesn't do the "right" things, yet is seeking with all his heart for the truth, and has a real connection to God (who is unknown to him). Doesn't God overlook the imperfections and look at the heart of the person? 

Edited September 11, 2014 by danielwoods

[Vance]

Vance, incorrect as usual. The Mormon explanation for God is much different from the Biblical teaching concerning God and His Word while using much of the same terminology.

Nah, it is just different from your post/extra/non-biblical Trinitarian God. And that is what has you concerned. Your position is so weak that you must strike out in defense.

I have shown you several times that you are the one that is incorrect. So, you have no credibility with me.

Have a nice day

[Vance]

The question is when we disagree (which we do) how much error does God tolerate?

I can't think of a single instance of Jesus condemning someone for have wrong beliefs. He did condemn (sort of) faithlessness but not certain beliefs. To Him is was ACTIONS that were praised and condemned.

Even among Evangelicals there is a variance of degree of error (in my opinion), which in my opinion leads to the real question (in relation to who is a christian or not) is are they connected directly to God or not? 

 

What I mean is, even if a person claims to be evangelical (as an example), and does all the "right" things, but doesn't care to really connect with God directly. What difference does it make if they don't have a direct connection (relationship) to God? Do those "right" things save him?

My only response is this verse.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

It seems to indicate that those who "obey" God are given the Holy Ghost. Which I am sure would provide that connection to God.

On the other extreme what if a Buddhist doesn't do the "right" things, yet is seeking with all his heart for the truth, and has a real connection to God (who is unknown to him). Doesn't God overlook the imperfections and look at the heart of the person?

I would say so, and that is what the scriptures indicate.

[Tacenda]

But what of the scripture that EV's bring up and I once brought up in GD class, very timidly in my crisis, that works are but filthy rags, how do we get around that? Btw, the GD teacher had no idea what I was talking about, I was very embarrassed, to say the least.

[Flyonthewall]

One of the questions that runs through my mind as I follow this thread is how much error does God allow?

 

 

It seems to me that he must allow quite a bit of error (because of his Grace). The differences among us are fairly large, yet we get close on a few things. 

 

For example, is there but one God? Or many gods? 

 

Does it effect our salvation if we are wrong? Ultimately, it's God himself who is judge, not me or anyone else. 

 

If I was to venture a guess, I would guess that God judges us based on what light we've been shown. Judges us against our own understanding, what he has revealed to us and what we understand to be true.

This is how LDS believe.

[Flyonthewall]

But what of the scripture that EV's bring up and I once brought up in GD class, very timidly in my crisis, that works are but filthy rags, how do we get around that? Btw, the GD teacher had no idea what I was talking about, I was very embarrassed, to say the least.

IIRC, that was addressed to the house of Israel that at the time was wicked...

(18-25) Isaiah 64:4–11. Is Our Righteousness like “Filthy Rags” unto the Lord?

When people do evil in the Lord’s sight, their ways can be compared to “filthy rags.” “We are all as an unclean thing” (Isaiah 64:6). God then hides His face from such individuals (see v. 7), and they must repent and plead to be forgiven (see vv. 8–9). Isaiah said that “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags,” or as Keil and Delitzsch translated the passage: “All our virtues [are] like a garment soiled with blood” (Commentary, 7:2:470). That is not to say that God despises virtue and views it as filthiness, but rather to say that Israel’s former righteousness has now become evil. Joseph Smith changed Isaiah 64:5–6to reflect this teaching more clearly: “Thou meetest him that worketh righteousness, and rejoiceth him that remembereth thee in thy ways; in righteousness there is continuance, and such shall be saved. But we have sinned; we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” (JST, Isaiah 64:5–6.)

[Flyonthewall]

At the expense of being repetitive (I know that our North Campus Bruin poster will likely try and point this out) our disagreement is not "peripheral" but rather central to the two most important points that separates you and I.  In other posts on this thread I have given elaborated on some of our differences.

 

Namely:

 

1.  Belief in a different God

2.  Belief in a different gospel

You keep saying belief in a different God, however, we have told you and shown you over and over again that we believe in the God of the Bible - God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

If you believe in a different God, then identify this God that is different than the one we believe in.

Different Gospel? We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ - that he was born of the Virgin Mary, lived, died, and rose again the 3rd day. He is the Savior and Redeemer of the World through the Atonement. Anything outside of this is an appendage.

Again. Identify the different Gospel that you believe in.