Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Canadaigua]

Nah, it pretty much does say that. 

This verse does not teach that salvation is by works.  If you think that it does please point it out for me.

[Canadaigua]

Your first mistake is thinking there is only heaven or hell.

Let's make it simple for discussion sake and speak specifically about exaltation.  If these verses are speaking about exaltation by one's works wouldn't the standard be perfect obedience to all of the commandments?

[ERayR]

Let's make it simple for discussion sake and speak specifically about exaltation.  If these verses are speaking about exaltation by one's works wouldn't the standard be perfect obedience to all of the commandments?

Mortal man isn't going to make that one so I would have to say it is by accepting the atonement offered by Jesus Christ.

[Flyonthewall]

This verse does not teach that salvation is by works.  If you think that it does please point it out for me.

Nobody is saying salvation is by works. What we are saying is that works play a part in salvation because works are a part of faith.

[ERayR]

This verse does not teach that salvation is by works.  If you think that it does please point it out for me.

And neither does the LDS church teach salvation by works!!!!!!  What we teach is that works are part of salvation.

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

Mark 10

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’ ”

20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”

21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

The first thing that jumps out from these verses is that the man does not refer to Jesus as Lord, rather he sees him as simply a "teacher".  Jesus then replies “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.  Christ's response here is extremely important for a few reasons.  I am sure that you would agree that Christ is perfect so certainly Christ is "good".  So why did Christ say this to this guy?  I think that he was trying to point out to him that he is God and that this guy didn't seem to catch that.  Let's start with this before moving on to another important point with this verse.

 

 

Flyonthewall

Ok, I will walk with you on this, go on.

1.  The man doesn't seem to notice that Jesus is God.

2.  Jesus says that ONLY God is good. 

3.  IF ONLY God is good then by definition we are not good.

4.  We ALL sin which is consistent with point 3.

5.  The ruler claims to be without sin but this contradicts both points 3 and 4 above.

[Canadaigua]

Nobody is saying salvation is by works. What we are saying is that works play a part in salvation because works are a part of faith.

LDS believe that works are required for exaltation--without the required works you can't possibly be exalted.

[ERayR]

LDS believe that works are required for exaltation--without the required works you can't possibly be exalted.

 

Please stop telling me what I believe.  You are not qualified to do that. 

 

Hello McFly have you NOT been reading what was posted?

[Flyonthewall]

1.  The man doesn't seem to notice that Jesus is God.

2.  Jesus says that ONLY God is good. 

3.  IF ONLY God is good then by definition we are not good.

4.  We ALL sin which is consistent with point 3.

5.  The ruler claims to be without sin but this contradicts both points 3 and 4 above.

I follow you up until point 5. The ruler does not claim to be without sin but only that he has obeyed the commandments. Jesus does not contradict him either but in fact invites the ruler to follow Him, just like the Apostles did.

[Anakin7]

       http://14lds.com/rome.htm

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

LDS Kryptonian Jedi

Edited September 13, 2014 by Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

How do you explain Isaiah  46:9 ? There is ONE God and none other. There are many passages if one is willing to read the Bible. It goes without saying that the Bible claims that there is only one God. Now Triune simply means three. God is made up of three beings who have always existed. They will always exist. And they work together to get the job at hand done. They are one GOD. Take an egg. The shell is called an egg shell. The yoke is called an egg yoke. The white is called the egg white. Each part is egg, but they all represent one egg. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one GOD. They are not three individual Gods. 

[Canadaigua]

I didn't ignore that part rather, as I said, the chronology of that passage points out that the believers aren't apart of this judgement. 

I was looking through a couple of commentaries on this section of scripture and below is a little section from the New American Commentary - Revelation- Page Patterson, which confirms what you said (and something that I also believe).

 

 

". . .Following the judgment of Satan, John sees a great white throne and One seated on it from whom the earth and the sky fled away, and yet there was in the end no place to seek asylum. The One who sits on the throne is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. One cannot avoid the presence of an omnipresent God nor seek asylum from an omniscient and omnipotent God. Now the dead are standing before the throne indicating that there has been a resurrection of the ungodly. They are made up of both great and small, persons who in the eyes of the social order amounted to little and persons who were a part of the ruling aristocracies of the world. There is no longer a distinction among them, but they all stand before the throne having in common that they died outside of Christ.

The basis of their judgment is twofold. First, books are opened, and then another book is plainly said to be the Book of Life. All of the dead are judged out of the things that are recorded in the books. This is a judgment based on their deeds or works. Everyone is there, the sea having given up the dead who have perished there and the grave, or Hades, having given up the dead in them, and every person is judged by what he has done or what has been recorded in the books.

Thomas notes, “Scripture makes consistent reference to a register of human actions.” Now death, the final enemy of all mankind, and Hades, the abode of the dead itself, are thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is referred to as “the second death.” Just as the first death is dreaded and avoided, so the second death is the far more devastating experience, encompassing a state of continual dying. Now the second basis of judgment is provided. If anyone’s name is not found in the Book of Life, he, too, is thrown into the lake of fire. This constitutes an important theological principle. Everyone who stands before the great white throne is judged from the books. The only people appearing before this Great White Throne Judgment are those who were not a part of the first resurrection and hence were outside of Christ. No believers are here. . ."

[Canadaigua]

Please stop telling me what I believe.  You are not qualified to do that. 

I can't tell you what you believe but I can state what Mormonism teaches from the official LDS.org website and LDS manuals.  

[Canadaigua]

I follow you up until point 5. The ruler does not claim to be without sin but only that he has obeyed the commandments. Jesus does not contradict him either but in fact invites the ruler to follow Him, just like the Apostles did.

20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”

 

If a person obeys all of the commandments wouldn't you say that he is without sin?

[Flyonthewall]

20 

And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”

 

If a person obeys all of the commandments wouldn't you say that he is without sin?

Not necessarily. The 10 commandments are not the sum total of ways to sin. And if you want to split hairs, Jesus only mentioned 6 of the 10 commandments after he asked which ones he should to keep. Edited September 13, 2014 by Flyonthewall

[Flyonthewall]

Let's assume that you are right for sake of discussion.  If this were the case then the basis for Heaven and Hell would be your works--which would mean perfect obedience to the commandments as the requirement for salvation/exaltation.  Is that the standard that you are using for the final judgement?

One thing I think is a sticking point... Evangelicals think their idea of "salvation" corresponds with our idea of exhalation - I have come to the conclusion that it does not.

It would more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things.

You have a dichotomy - heaven and hell. We do not. So if you want to align your belief of all that do not go to hell go to heaven, then it must line up with our belief of all who do not go to Outer Darkness go to a kingdom of Glory.

Salvation is a free gift brought about by the atonement, but our reward within salvation is based on the judgment of our actions/works as mentioned in Revelation.

Essentially, your belief on this topic is very simplistic and rudimentary, our belief is more nuanced.

[Canadaigua]

Not necessarily. The 10 commandments are not the sum total of ways to sin. And if you want to split hairs, Jesus only mentioned 6 of the 10 commandments after he asked which ones he should to keep.

So is your position on this section of scripture that he was a sinner just like everyone else?  If that is the case then I would agree with you.

[Canadaigua]

One thing I think is a sticking point... Evangelicals think their idea of "salvation" corresponds with our idea of exhalation - I have come to the conclusion that it does not.

It would more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things.

I would agree with you that Christian salvation and LDS exaltation are completely different--but this is just more evidence that our beliefs are completely different.  I would like to comment on your statement stating that Christian salvation "more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things."  But this is certainly not true and here is why.  Christian salvation a believer lives eternally with God.  In the lower two LDS kingdoms people are eternally separated from God the Father.  Again completely opposite beliefs.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Canadaigua

[Flyonthewall]

How do you explain Isaiah  46:9 ? There is ONE God and none other. There are many passages if one is willing to read the Bible. It goes without saying that the Bible claims that there is only one God. Now Triune simply means three. God is made up of three beings who have always existed. They will always exist. And they work together to get the job at hand done. They are one GOD. Take an egg. The shell is called an egg shell. The yoke is called an egg yoke. The white is called the egg white. Each part is egg, but they all represent one egg. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one GOD. They are not three individual Gods.

I think you already know this analogy is not very good and falls apart very quickly. The egg shell, egg yoke, and egg white are all parts of a whole, where as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are each individually God - not parts of a whole.

I believe that if you do a search thru the scriptures on examples of becoming or being "one" you will soon discover it is not a numerical one, but a functional one.

[Flyonthewall]

I would agree with you that Christian salvation and LDS exaltation are completely different--but this is just more evidence that our beliefs are completely different.  I would like to comment on your statement stating that Christian salvation "more accurately correspond to all 3 of the kingdoms of glory on our side of things."  But this is certainly not true and here is why.  Christian salvation a believer lives eternally with God.  In the lower two LDS kingdoms people are eternally separated from God the Father.  Again completely opposite beliefs.

I did not say completely different, but mis-aligned. As I said, Your belief is simplistic, not as nuanced as ours.

Your belief is encompassed in ours.

In our belief, the Lower 2 kingdoms are still Kingdoms of Glory, and all Glory comes from God.

[Flyonthewall]

LDS believe that works are required for exaltation--without the required works you can't possibly be exalted.

What you keep missing is that the works required for exaltation are contained within faith, and it is only through the Grace of God that we may be exalted. Without God, there is no exaltation. There is nothing we can do without the Grace of God to be exalted.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Please stop telling me what I believe.  You are not qualified to do that. 

 

and it is extremely easy to misrepresent other religious beliefs, for example 

 

[LittleNipper]

I would disagree. It would seem that each of these beings knows exactly what the others are thinking, and they actually can react through each other to accomplish what the whole desires and requires. The difference is that Jesus took on human form and became a man who was still able to tap into his godly powers as necessary, but allowed Himself to have limitations to be able to interact with humans --- as God the whole really desired to do. And again, any explanation is really going to fall short of the glory of God. Humans (even though Christian) have inherent limitations. And the truth be know, that even an eternity will not reveal everything that there is to know about GOD to anyone. GOD is GOD. He is always. We were not --- being created. God was never created. GOD is the only one of his essence. He will always be the only One. Christians are being nurtured to be in the LIKENESS of Christ. However, likeness is not to be confused with the same as. Likeness for Christians will be in the form of desires of the heart and attitude. You can explain why Mormons believe in eternal marriage ----- and I see a sinister desire to become as G-O-D. The devil himself is still considering this to be his true desire.

Edited September 13, 2014 by LittleNipper

[Flyonthewall]

I would disagree. It would seem that each of these beings knows exactly what the others are thinking, and they actually can react through each other to accomplish what the whole desires and requires. The difference is that Jesus took on human form and became a man who was still able to tap into his godly powers as necessary, but allowed Himself to have limitations to be able to interact with humans --- as God the whole really desired to do. And again, any explanation is really going to fall short of the glory of God. Humans (even though Christian) have inherent limitations. And the truth be know, that even an eternity will not reveal everything that there is to know about GOD to anyone. GOD is GOD. He is always. We were not --- being created. God was never created. GOD is the only one of his essence. He will always be the only One. Christians are being nurtured to be in the LIKENESS of Christ. However, likeness is not to be confused with the same as. Likeness for Christians will be in the form of desires of the heart and attitude. You can explain why Mormons believe in eternal marriage ----- and I see a sinister desire to become as G-O-D. The devil himself is still considering this to be his true desire.

I am sure you have an explanation of John 17:

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

How is it we can be one with God in the same manner as the Father is one with the Son?

How is it we can be given the same glory as was given to Jesus?

Why is it Jesus gave us the commandment in Matthew 5:48 to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Why did Jesus say in John 10: "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken"?

Apparently Jesus was a bit confused. But that's okay because He simply was under the influence of the limitations of being a mortal man and we cannot expect Him to get everything right all the time.... right?

[ERayR]

and it is extremely easy to misrepresent other religious beliefs, for example 

 

Where have I done that?