Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

CFR

Romans 8:3

[halconero]

Romans 8:3

 

I agree that grace and salvation is relationship based with God. But the Greco-Roman context of knowing someone, being in a relationship with someone, and being saved by someone involves reciprocal action. I'm exhausted right now, but I promise I'll post more on this tomorrow.

[Garden Girl]

Do you believe that angels/demons are saved by placing their faith in Christ?

 

Not at all... I agree with JLHPROF... we do well by having belief and faith in Christ, but James is illustrating that that's fine but even devils believe... that it is our works because of our faith that is important. 

 

GG  

[coolrok7]

The fallen angelic beings know what is coming to them as they have already been judged to eternal torment, even those who believe in the devils lies, the goats or those on the left (Matthew 25:41).

 

Humans are given the opportunity to repent/believe and have their sin forgiven to eternal life. In The New testament Jesus was asked by the demons, "have you come to torment us before the time?" James' argument for faith without works being dead is a valid argument. Mormonism abuses the ultimate meaning though (In the same way all the other distortions of other religious tradition does).

 

There are two Justifications, one before God: Justification (Romans 4:2); one before men: justification which is the one James is talking about (James 2:18). Paul and James both use the example of Abraham when he was told to sacrifice Isaac. In the example Abraham had raised the knife in which God provided the ram caught in the bush for the sacrifice. Both conditions are met, before God Whom knows the heart condition (the internal of belief) and we by the raising of the knife (the external in action).

 

The "after all you can do" of the BofM is not the Biblical teaching which is salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, although faith produces the works. James goes on to say, I'll show you my faith by my works. Luther's own statement, "works are not absent where faith is" negates the argument of Mormons that we don't believe in having good works which are a part of our Sanctification (being set apart for works of service after faith has come), not our Justification before God.

 

Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide are of course not Biblical terms. It is Latin for Scripture, Grace, Faith. Salvation by grace, not of works through faith is what Protestants argue for which is the teaching of the apostle Paul. The Sola part of the equation is only or alone which in the context of the argument is not by itself or alone (the alone applies in the context of our Justification before God which is totally a work of God, not ours).

 

Ephesians 2:8-10 fulfills all three principles alluded to in the Solas. First Scripture determines the truth of God (which doesn't include all the other so-called scriptures of other non-Christian faith traditions and those considered to be heretical movements by Christians of a proper Biblical faith). So in these principles of Scripture the conditions are met being salvation is by grace (Gratia) through faith (Fide) not of works which counters the "after all we can do" of Mormonism.

 

So until a Mormon believes this then I don't see how they are Christian as the meaning is distorted to the point of not really ultimately believing the Truth of God.

Edited September 20, 2014 by coolrok7

[JLHPROF]

LDS often use that verse to try and support a works based salvation but angels/demons are not humans so when LDS use this verse Christians scratch their head and wonder why you guys even bring this verse up.

 

CFR - Angels are humans, just ones that are in a higher condition.  I'd like to see a scripture that shows definitively that angels are a different species.

[JLHPROF]

Not at all... I agree with JLHPROF... we do well by having belief and faith in Christ, but James is illustrating that that's fine but even devils believe... that it is our works because of our faith that is important. 

 

GG  

 

Exactly.  Just as Paul shows in Hebrews as well.  The scriptures are clear.  Faith in Christ is required, but you are not considered to have any faith unless you do works.  The devils believe, but have no faith.  We believe, but have faith BECAUSE we provide evidence of this unseen faith through works.

 

It's very simple and 100% Biblical.

[coolrok7]

The "Angel of light" of 2 Corinthians 11:14 is identified as Satan being transformed in his appearance as stated by Paul. Angels can have the appearance of men but are not. Their origin is before the creation of mankind in the Garden. When the sons of God shouted for joy, these are the angelic beings being referred to.

Edited September 20, 2014 by coolrok7

[JLHPROF]

The "Angel of light" of 2 Corinthians 11:14 is identified as Satan being transformed by Paul. Angels can have the appearance of men but are not. Their origin is before the creation of mankind in the Garden. When the sons of God shouted for joy, these are the angelic beings being referred to.

 

Neither of those indicate that angels are a different species to men.  They're the same species and no scripture says otherwise.  Maybe, like Satan, they are spirits denied bodies, or like others they are resurrected beings.  The word angel only means "Messenger".  It has no indication of being anything other than a man who comes with a message (whether false like Satan or true like Gabriel).  They're still men unless I missed a scripture say they aren't.

[coolrok7]

Men and angels are identified as sons of God. God is the originator of both. Angelic beings were brought into existence before man in the Garden and are spirit (Hebrews 1;1-7, 2, the whole chapter for some context). We are born of earthly parents beginning with Adam and Eve, which is the physical component in which also has a spiritual component as James teaches the body without a spirit is dead.

 

Men can be messengers as well but they are human, angelic beings are spirit, not human. Angels can be transformed to look like humans but they're not.

Edited September 20, 2014 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

    True Salavtion - True Grace accepted/accessed/activated by True Faith - pistis - Commitment/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the Person and work of Christ Jesus. Off to work.

 

Salvation Is Free  2 Nephi 2:4 and according to the late Bruce R.McConkie

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited September 20, 2014 by Anakin7

[Canadaigua]

CFR - Angels are humans, just ones that are in a higher condition.  I'd like to see a scripture that shows definitively that angels are a different species.

Where did you come up with the idea that "Angels are humans"?

[JLHPROF]

Where did you come up with the idea that "Angels are humans"?

 

Mormonism (and the Bible).

Edited September 20, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Flyonthewall]

You seriously aren't claiming that those in the Celestial kingdom have the same interactions/fellowship/access (how you want to describe it?) to/with God that the other two kingdoms have are you?

What I am saying is that not everyone in "heaven" has the same standing - there are different levels/statuses... the link you provided says that too.

The difference is that you believe everyone in the presence of the Father can have a different level or status.

I believe, just like the bible states, there are different levels of glory that man is resurrected into to, one likened to the sun, one likened to the moon and one likened to the stars. The Celestial Kingdom correlates to the Glory of the Sun with the fullness of the Father. The Terrestrial correlates to the Glory of the moon, and can receive the presence of the Son, but not the fullness. The Telestial Kingdom correlates to the Glory of the stars. All have glory from God so are in "fellowship" to one degree or another.

You keep trying to say we are completely different, but we are not on this topic. We have the same general concept, but differ on the details.

[Flyonthewall]

LDS often use that verse to try and support a works based salvation but angels/demons are not humans so when LDS use this verse Christians scratch their head and wonder why you guys even bring this verse up.

No LDS believes in a "works" based salvation. Salvation is based on the grace of God thru the atonement. As the Bible teaches faith without works is dead so works do indeed play a part... the part we can do.

[danielwoods]

What I am saying is that not everyone in "heaven" has the same standing - there are different levels/statuses... the link you provided says that too.

The difference is that you believe everyone in the presence of the Father can have a different level or status.

I believe, just like the bible states, there are different levels of glory that man is resurrected into to, one likened to the sun, one likened to the moon and one likened to the stars. The Celestial Kingdom correlates to the Glory of the Sun with the fullness of the Father. The Terrestrial correlates to the Glory of the moon, and can receive the presence of the Son, but not the fullness. The Telestial Kingdom correlates to the Glory of the stars. All have glory from God so are in "fellowship" to one degree or another.

You keep trying to say we are completely different, but we are not on this topic. We have the same general concept, but differ on the details.

The details matter, at least when it comes down to wanting to know the truth. 

 

 In 1 Cor. 15, the analogy of different glories are equal to different intensity or beauty if you will. Some shine brighter than others. However, the difference between this analogy and the LDS view is that all these different bodies mentioned in 1 Corinthians are in the same space. In the LDS view the three different kingdoms are not in the same space, in that there is a barrier or separation between them. Further, the difference in glories equates to brightness or intensity or beauty, not location. 

 

You say that "All have glory from God so are in "fellowship" to one degree or another. This glosses over the LDS teaching that the Father doesn't "reside" with those in the lower kingdoms, which seems to me to be a large point, not just a small detail.

[Canadaigua]

Mormonism (and the Bible).

Where in the Bible does it say that angels are humans?

[JLHPROF]

Where in the Bible does it say that angels are humans?

 

Where does it say they're not?  All the word angel means is messenger.  There is no reason to believe they are anything other than people like us.

Some are spirits without bodies yet.  Some are people who have passed on.  Some are resurrected beings.  Nothing in the Bible indicates a different species.

[Canadaigua]

Where does it say they're not?  All the word angel means is messenger.  There is no reason to believe they are anything other than people like us.

Some are spirits without bodies yet.  Some are people who have passed on.  Some are resurrected beings.  Nothing in the Bible indicates a different species.

But you are simply assuming that they are the same yet the Bible never says that they are.  

 

You said that this idea comes from the Bible--do you have any references for this?

[teddyaware]

But you are simply assuming that they are the same yet the Bible never says that they are.  

 

You said that this idea comes from the Bible--do you have any references for this?

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22)

[Flyonthewall]

The details matter, at least when it comes down to wanting to know the truth. 

 

 In 1 Cor. 15, the analogy of different glories are equal to different intensity or beauty if you will. Some shine brighter than others. However, the difference between this analogy and the LDS view is that all these different bodies mentioned in 1 Corinthians are in the same space. In the LDS view the three different kingdoms are not in the same space, in that there is a barrier or separation between them. Further, the difference in glories equates to brightness or intensity or beauty, not location. 

 

You say that "All have glory from God so are in "fellowship" to one degree or another. This glosses over the LDS teaching that the Father doesn't "reside" with those in the lower kingdoms, which seems to me to be a large point, not just a small detail.

[/quote"Different intensity or beauty" - we could use that same language to describe the lower kingdoms within the kingdom of heaven. 1 Corinthians says nothing about being in the same space.

And seeing that you would cast all those in the lower kingdom into hell for an eternity, since that is where you would draw the line, which is the more loving and merciful?

[Vance]

LDS often use that verse to try and support a works based salvation . . .

You need to get it through your thick head that we do NOT believe in a "works based salvation"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because you don't understand what we really believe is no excuse to continue to lie about it and misrepresent it.

But I suppose, the only way for you to feel like you are "winning" here is to continue to flog that strawman.

. . . but angels/demons are not humans

Angels are men, as has been demonstrated here several times. Demons are just un-embodied spirits that are the same kind of spirits as our spirits are. So your argument has no basis.

so when LDS use this verse Christians scratch their head and wonder why you guys even bring this verse up.

The fact that your so called "Christians" scratch their heads is prime facie evidence that they are ignorant of Biblical doctrine.

[Anakin7]

    Rev 19:10, 22:9

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Vance]

Jesus is referring to believers as Sheep, and he says, "my sheep know me"

You have failed to show where "all" believers are called his sheep. You failed because it doesn't. There are many believers of Jesus that are not his sheep.

[Anakin7]

       True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice is a Love Covenant Based Soteriological Salvation Based  way of life.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Vance]

Romans 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That verse means just the opposite of what you claim it means.

Jesus came in the flesh and did no sin thus condemning sin in the flesh or in other words demonstrating that it was possible to lead a sinless life. The fact that no one besides Jesus has chosen to lead a sinless life does not mean that it isn't possible. Jesus demonstrated that it is.

If God made it so we have to sin then He alone is responsible for our sin and He would be an unjust God to condemn us for something that He forced us to do.