Calm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) I think there is seen a difference in that the consequences of one is punishment (bad things happen to you) while in the other it is blessings that do not occur because your side of the covenant is not fulfilled (good things do not happen to you).While some people view them as the same thing, they are not the same. Research for one thing demonstrates different pattern of responses will be made to them for one thing.One does not, iow, suffer the consequences of not paying tithing; instead, one does not enjoy the consequences of paying tithing. Edited March 18, 2014 by calmoriah 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 No one forces you to pay income tax, either. If you choose not to pay, you suffer the consequences (fines, jail, etc). Isn't the same true of paying tithing? No one forces you to, but if you choose not to, you suffer the consequences (not being temple worthy, not getting to the celestial kingdom, etc). I said it before: if we stretch the definitions of mandatory and optional so far as to mean that anytime we have a choice to do something then doing it is optional, it makes the word meaningless. Except the IRS will garnish wages, impose leans, etc. So they actually do compel payment.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 No one forces you to pay income tax, either. If you choose not to pay, you suffer the consequences (fines, jail, etc). Isn't the same true of paying tithing? No one forces you to, but if you choose not to, you suffer the consequences (not being temple worthy, not getting to the celestial kingdom, etc). I said it before: if we stretch the definitions of mandatory and optional so far as to mean that anytime we have a choice to do something then doing it is optional, it makes the word meaningless. however the consequences of not paying your tithing do not include loss of membership or fellowship, hence, tithing is not mandatory for membership or fellowship in the church.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Except the IRS will garnish wages, impose leans, etc. So they actually do compel payment.Not only that, unpaid tithing is not even considered a debt as far as the church goes. Someone who doesn't pay tithing doesn't have to pay any back tithing to be considered a full tithe payer. 1
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I said it before: if we stretch the definitions of mandatory and optional so far as to mean that anytime we have a choice to do something then doing it is optional, it makes the word meaningless. Is it possible for someone to become a member of the LDS church, and to remain a member of the LDS church, without paying any tithing? Yes. Given that, is it accurate (using your definition of mandatory) to say that paying tithing is mandatory for LDS members?
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Is it possible for someone to become a member of the LDS church, and to remain a member of the LDS church, without paying any tithing? Yes. Given that, is it accurate (using your definition of mandatory) to say that paying tithing is mandatory for LDS members? If we are talking about simply having your name on a membership roll, then no, it is not mandatory for LDS members to pay tithing. If we are talking about receiving the blessings of the church, then yes. I can have my name on the roll of a college course. On the syllabus it says, "homework is mandatory." I don't do my homework. I don't get kicked out of the class, but I do get an F. It would be odd for me to tell everyone that homework was voluntary because I didn't get kicked out of the class. Let's flip the discussion. For someone who is already a Mormon, what is mandatory in order to remain one? This is not a rhetorical question -- I'm sincerely curious as to what is required to retain membership. Edited March 18, 2014 by MiserereNobis
ktchace Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Don't pay taxes, go to prison. Don't pay tithing, go to spirit prison.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 If we are talking about simply having your name on a membership roll, then no, it is not mandatory for LDS members to pay tithing. If we are talking about receiving the blessings of the church, then yes. The main blessings of the church, receiving the sacrament, saying prayers in meetings, attending meetings of the church, going to seminary, receiving welfare assistance, receiving home teachers, going to youth activities, etc, are not restricted based on whether you are a full tithe payer or not.
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 If we are talking about simply having your name on a membership roll, then no, it is not mandatory for LDS members to pay tithing. If we are talking about receiving the blessings of the church, then yes. I can have my name on the roll of a college course. On the syllabus it says, "homework is mandatory." I don't do my homework. I don't get kicked out of the class, but I do get an F. It would be odd for me to tell everyone that homework was voluntary because I didn't get kicked out of the class.I think that in the Catholic church this is seen differently, but in the LDS church, it's not the blessings of the 'church'. It's the blessings of God as the LDS church teaches them. I don't know if that distinction matters but I just wanted to put that out there. And as someone who just recently got her degree, I can testify that homework truly IS mandatory in college. That is because if you do not do homework, you will fail most classes, and failing your classes will get you kicked out of college. In fact, if you are failing at midterm, most teachers will put you aside and tell you to withdraw. And if you come to class repeatedly unprepared, they can kick you out. Let's flip the discussion. For someone who is already a Mormon, what is mandatory in order to remain one? This is not a rhetorical question -- I'm sincerely curious as to what is required to retain membership.Not having your name removed/resigning your membership or committing a specific serious sin (such as adultery as an active member, or teaching apostate doctrines).
Brian 2.0 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Is it possible for someone to become a member of the LDS church, and to remain a member of the LDS church, without paying any tithing?Yes.Given that, is it accurate (using your definition of mandatory) to say that paying tithing is mandatory for LDS members?And on the same note...We all agree that committing to give 10% of your increase to the church is REQUIRED to gain membership in the church, correct?
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 And on the same note... We all agree that committing to give 10% of your increase to the church is REQUIRED to gain membership in the church, correct?Yes, committing to have a desire to keep specific commandments, of which tithing is one, is a requirement for membership. That point has been made previously on the thread. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of tithing in the LDS church.
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 We all have agency. This reminds me of the following Monty Python clip: "I'm not"
thatjimguy Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) By the way, you don't need to pay back tithing to be considered a full tithe payer (even if you haven't been paying in a while) so there is not "debt" that accrues if you aren't paying your tithing. I have heard stories that was not the case, so that is folklore then? Edited March 18, 2014 by thatjimguy
Calm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Probably depends on the bishop. I can see some might want to see some back payment as a sign of repentance, but there is no policy requirement.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I have heard stories that was not the case, so that is folklore then? Yes
thatjimguy Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I am surprised how many of you don't understand what it means to be voluntary. Tithing is 100% voluntary. Those of you who disagree are just plain and simple wrong. The church (not to mention the scriptures) teaches us it is important, and perhaps, even essential to our salvation. Does that make it involuntary? No. You don't have to pay tithing. You don't have to give 10% or even 1%. Nobody will FORCE you (unlike income taxes, which is a good comparison). As much as I am on our side, I think our arguments can be a little weak about the whole free will / force issue. A jerky casting director won't force a young lady to have sex with him, she just won't make it onto the big screen is all. I think this is kind of the point people are trying to make about the issue in their view.
omni Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I have heard stories that was not the case, so that is folklore then?I have heard from a number of individuals that were required to pay their last year's tithing before they were able to get their temple recommend. I don't know if this was official policy however. Any bishops in the house?
ALarson Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Probably depends on the bishop. I can see some might want to see some back payment as a sign of repentance, but there is no policy requirement.I know of several Bishops who have required this. But, I do believe this is up to each individual Bishop's discretion.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 In response to the fraud case, many are claiming that tithing is optional. I beg to differ. All commandments are optional. Were it not so, we could not be praised for obedience or blamed for non-obedience.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 So ... if Tithing is not optional, does that mean that President Thomas S. Monson and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are guilty of fraud?
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 All commandments are optional. Were it not so, we could not be praised for obedience or blamed for non-obedience. Oh, no! Someone who focuses so much on language seems to be making the word "optional" out to mean nothing...
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 So ... if Tithing is not optional, does that mean that President Thomas S. Monson and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are guilty of fraud? No. And that's the key, I think. Most of you are defending tithing as being "optional" because you've bought into the premise that if it is required then fraud is involved. Fraud has to do with willful deception. Don't buy into the opposition's premise because it is false. There are many financial transactions that are required and none of them are fraud *unless* you are being intentionally deceived. 3
ALarson Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 So ... if Tithing is not optional, does that mean that President Thomas S. Monson and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are guilty of fraud?No, I absolutely do not see how they can make that leap. They would also have to prove that President Monson does not believe the church and its teachings are true. Again, I cannot understand how they would even attempt to do that. But if it goes to trial, I guess we'll find out. However, I will be shocked if it gets that far. 1
cinepro Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) All commandments are optional. Were it not so, we could not be praised for obedience or blamed for non-obedience. op·tion·al adjective 1. left to one's choice; not required or mandatory http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/optional Is it your understanding that tithing is "not required or mandatory"? Edited March 18, 2014 by cinepro
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