Tithing Is Not Optional

[MiserereNobis]

OK then YOU define "optional". 

 

It is the antonym to "required."  It is not a synonym for "free-agency."

 

If something is optional (i.e. not required) then there will not be negative consequences for not doing it.  When I bought textbooks during college, there were required texts and optional texts.  Yes, I had the choice whether or not to buy the required text, but there would be negative consequences if I did not.  The optional texts carried no such negative consequence.

 

I don't walk into the campus bookstore and say, "dang, look at this!  Every book here is optional because no one's forcing me to buy any of them!"  That's stretching the word optional beyond its normal usage.

 

After this, I feel like I need to go read some Russell

[pogi]

It is the antonym to "required."  It is not a synonym for "free-agency."

 

If something is optional (i.e. not required) then there will not be negative consequences for not doing it.  When I bought textbooks during college, there were required texts and optional texts.  Yes, I had the choice whether or not to buy the required text, but there would be negative consequences if I did not.  The optional texts carried no such negative consequence.

 

I don't walk into the campus bookstore and say, "dang, look at this!  Every book here is optional because no one's forcing me to buy any of them!"  That's stretching the word optional beyond its normal usage.

 

After this, I feel like I need to go read some Russell

 

I agree with this.  However, in what context must tithing be "required" for a valid legal argument to stand?  It certainly is not required for membership.  It is not enforced in any way.  There is no disciplinary action for not paying tithing.  The only context in which tithing is required is a spiritual one.  There is no legal ground there.  

 

So, I think that both sides are probably right in certain regards, in that it is required in some aspects and not others.  Tithing is required in the eyes of God, but then again, so is our heart.  I don't see any law suits over that one. 

Edited March 19, 2014 by pogi

[thesometimesaint]

It is the antonym to "required."  It is not a synonym for "free-agency."

 

If something is optional (i.e. not required) then there will not be negative consequences for not doing it.  When I bought textbooks during college, there were required texts and optional texts.  Yes, I had the choice whether or not to buy the required text, but there would be negative consequences if I did not.  The optional texts carried no such negative consequence.

 

I don't walk into the campus bookstore and say, "dang, look at this!  Every book here is optional because no one's forcing me to buy any of them!"  That's stretching the word optional beyond its normal usage.

 

After this, I feel like I need to go read some Russell

 

When I was in college, back before the dinosaurs, buying the books was optional.but highly recommended. I could study with friends using their copies, use the copy in the library. Even take copious notes from the lectures. Of course I bought most of my books, but not all. 

 

There is no such requirement in the Church for tithing. You won't be kicked out for not paying it, and under some conditions you are not even expected to pay tithing. We ask for 10% of increase. We have no official definition of increase. That is left up to the tithe payer to determine.

[MiserereNobis]

I agree with this.  However, in what context must tithing be "required" for a valid legal argument to stand?  It certainly is not required for membership.  It is not enforced in any way.  There is no disciplinary action for not paying tithing.  The only context in which tithing is required is a spiritual one.  There is no legal ground there.  

 

So, I think that both sides are probably right in certain regards, in that it is required in some aspects and not others.  Tithing is required in the eyes of God, but then again, so is our heart.  I don't see any law suits over that one. 

 

I absolutely agree -- there should be nothing legal going on with this.  But as I said in a previous post, I think it is a bad idea to fight the idea of fraud by saying that tithing is optional in the LDS church.  Instead, fight it on the grounds of religious freedom and willful deception.  Those make for much better arguments than stretching the definition of the word optional to include the law of tithing in the LDS church.

[pogi]

I absolutely agree -- there should be nothing legal going on with this.  But as I said in a previous post, I think it is a bad idea to fight the idea of fraud by saying that tithing is optional in the LDS church.  Instead, fight it on the grounds of religious freedom and willful deception.  Those make for much better arguments than stretching the definition of the word optional to include the law of tithing in the LDS church.

 

I think you could play it from both angles.  In every legal sense, tithing is optional for a member of the church.  As I said, it is not "required" to be a member of the church, it is not enforced, and there is no disciplinary action taken for not paying tithing.  So, clarifying that tithing is indeed optional in this regard speaks to legal ears.  

 

You could then argue that in spiritual regards only is it not optional, but is a commandment.  The only consequences are spiritual consequences.  This is where you play the religious freedom card which could be easily backed up by reading Malachi 3:8-10 and D&C 119.

Edited March 19, 2014 by pogi

[thesometimesaint]

I absolutely agree -- there should be nothing legal going on with this.  But as I said in a previous post, I think it is a bad idea to fight the idea of fraud by saying that tithing is optional in the LDS church.  Instead, fight it on the grounds of religious freedom and willful deception.  Those make for much better arguments than stretching the definition of the word optional to include the law of tithing in the LDS church.

 

I don't see it. No one is required to join the Church. I could walk away today if I wanted to. We don't demand tithing for continued membership. Every year at tithing settlement I sign forms that state quite clearly I have no legal claim on the Church because of tithing. For anyone to claim that our leaders knowing the Church is false still require the payment of money is mind reading in the extreme.

[Truth 101]

The fact that there are so many less-active people who are still considered full members should be evidence enough that tithing isn't required to maintain membership.

 

Heck, when I interviewed people to be baptized I didn't ask them if they had payed tithing already. Rather, I asked them if they would be willing to pay it after their baptism and confirmation. This seems like a small distinction, but the fact that someone can be baptized and confirmed without every paying a cent is evidence enough that full membership isn't dependent on tithing.

It's not about membership, it's that tithing is REQUIRED to receive celestial glory.

[Truth 101]

Can they prove that President Monson does not believe the story of the translation of the Book of Mormon? Or that he said or taught anything inconsistent with Church doctrine?

I think if President Mondon was the first President of the Church and not the 16th it would be an easier case to make. Time does have a way of ligitimizing things

Agreed

[Truth 101]

I haven't been following the case too closely, can anybody provide a link showing what Philips is actually arguing? If he's claiming someone's membership will be affected if they fail to pay tithing then he's clearly wrong, however if he's arguing one is compelled to pay tithing due to loss of temple privileges and in effect their eternal salvation then I think a case can be made.

 

I agree a case can be made too, but this will most likely go nowhere. But as a former member of the church I was constantly compelled to pay tithing. And it's not about the LDS church forcing people to pay tithing, a more correct word would be that they coerce people to pay their tithing. In order to receive leadership positions and ultimately celestial glory, in other words, full benefits of the church, you must be a full tithe payer.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Truth 101

[Truth 101]

If you don't pay income tax, your wages are garnished. If you don't pay tithing you burn: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

 

Which is worse?

 

Ha your wages are garnished and you go to federal prison depending on how much you didn't pay. So hell on earth, or... well actual hell.

[Truth 101]

Typically your wages a garnished by pay period to pay income taxes. Not after you don't pay. And such garnishment optional they call it "withholding" in the US

Last I knew the Church didn't garnish my wages to collect tithing. And the link you posted is only valid if I believe the author of the link.

 

No the church doesn't garnish your wages, just your ticket to exhaltation

Edited March 19, 2014 by Truth 101

[thesometimesaint]

It's not about membership, it's that tithing is REQUIRED to receive celestial glory.

 

No it is not. IE; The Missionaries are not required to pay tithing. Yet if they were to die the Celestial Kingdom is still open to them.

[Truth 101]

Would this be an accurate statement?

 

"In the LDS church, agreeing to pay tithing once baptized is required in order to join.  Once a member, paying tithing is not mandatory for membership, but is mandatory to receive the full blessings the church has to offer, such as those which come from the temple."

That is a very accurate statement.

[Truth 101]

Too much to read. I'm just gonna say this:

 

I get that one must follow the word of wisdom and be worthy and maintain morals to get a recommend to the temple

I get it that you have to be sealed and have endowments done to receive celestial glory.

I get that you just have to be a good person in general.

 

What I don't get, is the law of tithing. In order to receive the highest glory you must obey the law of tithing. Which is money, such a worldly thing compared to what I mentioned above to have to do in order to get ahead in the life after this one.

 

IMO, just don't be a douche to people and you'll be fine.

 

This is your second warning for language. You have been removed from the thread.

[Truth 101]

No it is not. IE; The Missionaries are not required to pay tithing. Yet if they were to die the Celestial Kingdom is still open to them.

 

Ya that's cause they're serving a mission, which is a church service. I don't see too many missionaries working at McDonald's 

[ksfisher]

Too much to read. I'm just gonna say this:

 

I get that one must follow the word of wisdom and be worthy and maintain morals to get a recommend to the temple

I get it that you have to be sealed and have endowments done to receive celestial glory.

I get that you just have to be a good person in general.

 

What I don't get, is the law of tithing. In order to receive the highest glory you must obey the law of tithing. Which is money, such a worldly thing compared to what I mentioned above to have to do in order to get ahead in the life after this one.

 

IMO, just don't be a douche to people and you'll be fine.

I'm not really sure that it's the money that's the most significant part of the law of tithing.  What seems more significant is our willingness to give something that we've worked hard for to build up the kingdom of God.  We use money because it happens to be the most convenient way in our society move around things of worldly value from one person to another.  Money is worldly, but the law of tithing helps us to learn to use that money for more that ourselves.

[rongo]

For those who think tithing is optional, what would mandatory tithing look like? 

Payroll withholding. Like in Germany, with the Catholic and Lutheran churches, the "Kirchensteuer" (church tax) is automatically withheld and paid to the church if you are Catholic or Lutheran. It is less than 10%, but it is not voluntary. Non-believers were leaving the churches in droves in the mid 1990s when I was a missionary because they wanted to eliminate the church tax for them. We told investigators who asked (many people brought up the "Austrittsfrage" [leaving the church question --- it was a hot topic] that tithing is voluntary, but that they were expected to voluntarily pay 10%.

[bluebell]

Too much to read. I'm just gonna say this:

 

I get that one must follow the word of wisdom and be worthy and maintain morals to get a recommend to the temple

I get it that you have to be sealed and have endowments done to receive celestial glory.

I get that you just have to be a good person in general.

 

What I don't get, is the law of tithing. In order to receive the highest glory you must obey the law of tithing. Which is money, such a worldly thing compared to what I mentioned above to have to do in order to get ahead in the life after this one.

 

IMO, just don't be a douche to people and you'll be fine.

 

Maybe if you consider the law of tithing as you ponder the words of the Savior to the rich young man where He tells him that He must give up His riches to obtain eternal life (https://www.lds.org/bible-videos/videos/christ-and-the-rich-young-ruler?cid=HPFR031414568&im=true〈=eng) that will help you to see why the Lord would ask His followers to sacrifice money (one of the things that is often the very hardest for people to sacrifice).

 

Spiritually, sacrificing money, having to have faith that God will care for you and provide for you, is incredibly beneficial.  Proving God, as the scriptures say, strengthens a person's testimony and therefore their ability and desire to follow Christ.  Of course the church is interested in that.

 

Practically speaking, most of what the church does costs money.  Buildings, heat, electricity, land, materials like books, chalk, etc., temples, the missionary program-they all cost money.  Is it asking too much that each member, as they are able, should help pay for the resources that are spent on them?  I know you were just a kid when you left the church so you probably never thought about it (it's natural that most kids wouldn't) but you benefited from all of the money that the church has spent for these things.  I'm sure what you were able to pay in tithing did not equal what was spent on you.  

 

When we believe and remember that all we have comes from God, it makes more sense why God would ask for a little bit back.  

[bluebell]

Ya that's cause they're serving a mission, which is a church service. I don't see too many missionaries working at McDonald's 

 

Thankfully, most missionaries parents are able to pay for them, or the missionary themselves have saved up money.  I think right now it's about $425 a month.  If the parents can't, usually someone or some people in the ward help.  

 

My husband, who converted to the church when he was 16 as the only member in his family could not pay for his mission so some very kind members of his ward paid for him.

 

The reason that missionaries don't pay tithing though is because the money they live off of is already tithed.  It has been paid by someone else.  

[Truth 101]

Thankfully, most missionaries parents are able to pay for them, or the missionary themselves have saved up money.  I think right now it's about $425 a month.  If the parents can't, usually someone or some people in the ward help.  

 

My husband, who converted to the church when he was 16 as the only member in his family could not pay for his mission so some very kind members of his ward paid for him.

 

The reason that missionaries don't pay tithing though is because the money they live off of is already tithed.  It has been paid by someone else.  

 

That's what I meant, missionaries don't pay because they're doing a church service. And I can see what you're saying and you are right: The church does need money to do the things it needs to do like building temples and new wards and such. But to remain totally objective, what if you are wrong? What if your tithing, at least a fraction of it, benefited the leaders of the church. Wouldn't that make you feel deceived? What if your church isn't the true church? What if the Catholics are the true church? Or the Muslims? Now I already know what you're going to say about my "what ifs". You have faith, and I get that, faith is a good thing to have. But it only gets you so far.

 

One thing I will agree with is that I think I did have a good childhood and a lot of it was because I grew up in a Utah County LDS ward. It was tight knit, I loved scouting (I'm an eagle scout ) and hope to be a scout master someday. I knew all of my neighbor's names within 3 or 4 blocks, which is pretty uncommon when speaking about the rest of the USA. But everything being tight knit led to gossip and a lot of stupid quarrels among families of our ward, especially among the relief society (no offense to women). I'm not saying everything being tight knit and knowing those around you growing up is bad. But one thing I will always remember about growing up in the American Fork 32nd ward is that everybody was always up in everybody else's business, and many people were extremely judgmental and elitist.

 

And yes I may have left the church when I was young, but it is still a part of my life as about two thirds of my family is mormon, hell, my mother has 10 siblings, that's a big family, on the other hand my dad just has one sister. Out of the 37 cousins I have 14 have left/become inactive and doesn't care enough/isn't disgruntled so they haven't had their names removed either. I grew up a TBM (still disliked going to church though, I always rejoiced when it was stake or general conference), just as my cousins and two younger brothers that left did, and many of them were much older than I was when they left. Half of my mother's siblings aren't mormon anymore either.

 

I was a TBM up until I was about 15, then something personal happened to me when I was 16 and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Just because I was 16 when I left has no relevance. People three times my age have left for the same or similar reasons as I.

 

Not only that but the church likes to make it's members think that they're growing rapidly, when actually membership is in decline, but this is true with most religions, not just the LDS church. http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding_up/

 

I know I kind of went off topic, but meh.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Truth 101

[bluebell]

That's what I meant, missionaries don't pay because they're doing a church service. And I can see what you're saying and you are right: The church does need money to do the things it needs to do like building temples and new wards and such. But to remain totally objective, what if you are wrong? What if your tithing, at least a fraction of it, benefited the leaders of the church. Wouldn't that make you feel deceived? Now I already know what you're going to say about my "what ifs". You have faith, and I get that, faith is a good thing to have. But it only gets you so far.

I wouldn't feel deceived. I'd be upset at the person who did it, but tithing is my free will offering to God. It's not an offering to the LDS church. It stems from a commandment in the bible and is not a construct of Mormonism.

If someone else steals or misuses His money that I have given Him, that has no bearing on me.

What if your church isn't the true church? What if the Catholics are the true church? Or the Muslims?

 

What if it's not true?  I've lost nothing and gained a whole lot.  

 

And yes I may have left the church when I was young, but it is still a part of my life as about two thirds of my family is mormon, hell, my mother has 10 siblings, that's a big family, on the other hand my dad just has one sister. Out of the 37 cousins I have 14 have left/become inactive and doesn't care enough/isn't disgruntled so they haven't had their names removed either. I grew up a TBM, just as my cousins that left did, and many of them were much older than I was when they left. Half of my mother's siblings aren't mormon anymore either.

I was a TBM up until I was about 15, then something personal happened to me when I was 16 and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Just because I was 16 when I left has no relevance. People three times my age have left for the same or similar reasons as I.

I didn't mean to be condescending when i said that you left when you were young.  I just meant that our perceptions when we are young are not always accurate.  I also meant that really understanding a lot of the teachings of the LDS church takes years of fairly constant study and prayer, as well as interaction with the church in church settings.

 

I have no doubt that you know a lot about the church, but inevitably some of your ideas and perceptions are going to be wrong because you just don't have enough background or working knowledge on the subject.  I don't mean that in a snarky way.  

 

 

Not only that but the church likes to make it's members think that they're growing rapidly, when actually membership is in decline, but this is true with most religions, not just the LDS church. http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding_up/

This doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. The accusation has been addressed many times but if you want to make a new thread about it i'm sure you could.

Edited March 19, 2014 by bluebell

[thatjimguy]

I'm not saying everything being tight knit and knowing those around you growing up is bad. But one thing I will always remember about growing up in the American Fork 32nd ward is that everybody was always up in everybody else's business, and many people were extremely judgmental and elitist.

 

 

...and they are doing thier part of the Nephite Pride Cycle that hurts us all. I can only think of the number of people that fall away because of this.

 

I wonder if they ever think about how many people they turn away from the church exceeds the number of people they ever helped baptize?

Edited March 19, 2014 by thatjimguy

[mfbukowski]

It is the antonym to "required."  It is not a synonym for "free-agency."

 

If something is optional (i.e. not required) then there will not be negative consequences for not doing it.  When I bought textbooks during college, there were required texts and optional texts.  Yes, I had the choice whether or not to buy the required text, but there would be negative consequences if I did not.  The optional texts carried no such negative consequence.

 

I don't walk into the campus bookstore and say, "dang, look at this!  Every book here is optional because no one's forcing me to buy any of them!"  That's stretching the word optional beyond its normal usage.

 

After this, I feel like I need to go read some Russell

Good.

 

That proves it's optional.  No negative consequences for not paying tithing any more than for not doing the optional reading.

 

Those who DO the optional reading might be more likely to get an "A" because it will impress the professor.  There is no negative consequences for NOT doing the optional reading- you could still get an A without it.

 

I pay tithing because it is the right thing to do, and I believe God expects it.

 

Our belief is that you are as likely as I am to get into the CK without paying a dime of tithing in this life (assuming of course you finally get your head on straight about this consubstantial stuff in the spirit world, after you see some resurrected beings and figure out that the Godhead really could be three persons doing the same job without sharing "Substance".) 

[mfbukowski]

It's not about membership, it's that tithing is REQUIRED to receive celestial glory.

Nope, it's not.

 

You still have a shot at it.  Clearly you have been deluded by misunderstanding the philosophies of men.  In fact you are a prime candidate for a "second chance" in the spirit world, should you get hit by a truck tomorrow morning.

[Thinking]

That proves it's optional.  No negative consequences for not paying tithing any more than for not doing the optional reading.

 

You keep saying that word (optional). I do not think it means what you think it means.