Tithing Is Not Optional

[nephi007]

I'm in between a rock and a hard place, you could say. I don't want to hurt my in laws and especially my MIL. She is beyond faithful, she could darn near get translated, she's that faithful. But you're right I would be mocking the LDS God. I don't know what would be worse for her to hear, that we don't have the testimony we had, or we don't pay tithing. She really does think it's fire protection, I believe. But the time is coming when the gig will be up. The family is huge on my husband's side, there will have been 4 temple weddings of nieces and nephews, this year alone, and coming up with excuses as to why we haven't attended, is wearing thin.

Mocking the LDS god, are there multiple gods?

[JLHPROF]

Mocking the LDS god, are there multiple gods?

 

There may be multiple Gods, but there is only one God we pray to - our Heavenly Father.

[nephi007]

This isn't meant to be a reflection on anyone else: I'm simply saying how I might respond if I were in a similar situation. Sooner or later (preferably sooner than later), I'd have to decide whether continuing to live what I had essentially concluded is a lie simply in order to make others happy would be worth what I would have to give up in the process.  Sure, they may be disappointed by my choices; they might wish that I had (or that I would) make a different choice.  But in the end they're responsible for their happiness and fulfillment, and I'm responsible for mine.  Doing something simply for the sake of making others happy couldn't be worth it for long.  Having said all of that, like any other reasonable member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with a reasonably well-functioning brain, do I have questions? Sure, I have questions, but I lack the hubris necessary to conclude that, surely, God would do things much differently ... if only He were sensible enough to see things my way!  Questions are inevitable, but doubt and faith both are optional. Questions notwithstanding, I cannot bring myself to reject the bounteous harvest of good fruit that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ has borne in my life.  I live the Gospel (albeit perhaps haltingly, perhaps in fits and starts because of my natural man) because it fills my soul, not because my parents or my family or my friends would be disappointed if I were not to do so.  Your mileage may vary.

 

Nephi007,

 

I don't wish to seem self-righteous or judgmental.  If that's what comes across despite my best efforts to avoid it, please chalk it up to the imperfections and limitations of this particular medium.  I don't ask any of these questions because you owe me (or any other anonymous Internet poster) answers or explanations.  I simply ask them to provide a potential springboard for thought and introspection: (1) Is there anything you have (other than your will) that the Lord didn't give you first?  (2) Given what God has promised the faithful, is there anything you wouldn't or shouldn't give to see those promises fulfilled?  (3) Who do you believe asks us to pay Tithes and Offerings — one or more Church leaders, or the Lord? (4) Do you believe Church leaders don't take being entrusted with those resources seriously enough? (If so, you might want to reread Elder Bednar's address from October 2013 General Conference).

 

My $0.02, actual value much less.  

 

Correction:  Off on the year of Elder Bednar's address ... (Time flies! )

I would do anything to see the promises filled, but lately I've been feeling different, I always remembered as a kid and wondered why in all the years of the earth, god has never shown himself to the masses, I mean, if I were god I'd at least at some point in time let my kids know that I actually do exist instead of having them guessing and fighting and murdering over me in my name without my permission all the time, and everybody would stand in unity. TBH, when it comes to tithing I think that the church leaders are the ones that really ask, not the Lord, at least not in the way tithing is done now, it's not supposed to be like taxes and the IRS. You file taxes so you don't go to jail. But I can see one of my dad's reasons for living, he said "the church is like the IRS, except when you don't pay taxes you go to prison, you don't pay tithing then much worse things happen and you don't get to go to the temple. And TBH I don't think church leaders take being entrusted seriously.... for how big the church is it owns a lot.... but I still pay it so I can go to the temple with my wife and be together forever.

[Tacenda]

Mocking the LDS god, are there multiple gods?

Well, that is contingent on if the church is true then I'd be mocking that God. But I think that there are plenty that go without a firm testimony.

[Garden Girl]

Well, that is contingent on if the church is true then I'd be mocking that God. But I think that there are plenty that go without a firm testimony.

 

I'm sure this is probably true... but I think the difference is in attitude and what is in your heart... but people still have to be tithe payers, and able to answer the TR questions with an honest heart.

 

GG

Edited April 17, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Tacenda]

I'm sure this is probably true... but I think the difference is in attitude and what is in your heart... but people still have to be tithe payers, and able to answer the TR questions with an honest heart.

 

GG

Very True!  (bold mine)

[Kenngo1969]

I would do anything to see the promises filled, but lately I've been feeling different, I always remembered as a kid and wondered why in all the years of the earth, god has never shown himself to the masses, I mean, if I were god I'd at least at some point in time let my kids know that I actually do exist instead of having them guessing and fighting and murdering over me in my name without my permission all the time, and everybody would stand in unity. 

I haven't had any amazing visions.  Your mileage may vary, but I believe the more dramatic one's witness, the more it is incumbent upon him to live up to that witness (Doctrine & Covenants 82:3 — "For unto whom much is given much is required; and he that sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation").  (In a way, I'm glad I don't have that burden.)

 

Consider 1 Kings 19:11-12:

 

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

 

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

 

 

 

Consider, too, what the Savior told Thomas (John 20:29):

 

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

 

 

I personally know two people who have described interactions with those who have gone beyond the veil.  These people are reasonably intelligent and sane, and I have no reason to doubt what they have described to me.  I think that fits the pattern in Doctrine & Covenants 46:13-14:

 

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

 

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful

 

 

It seems as though verse 14 describes the position you find yourself in pretty well.  And while I did not have the experiences I describe above personally, I "believe on [the] words" of those who have described them to me.

 

TBH, when it comes to tithing I think that the church leaders are the ones that really ask, not the Lord, at least not in the way tithing is done now, it's not supposed to be like taxes and the IRS.  You file taxes so you don't go to jail. But I can see one of my dad's reasons for living, he said "the church is like the IRS, except when you don't pay taxes you go to prison, you don't pay tithing then much worse things happen and you don't get to go to the temple.

 

 

With due respect, in fact, tithing isn't like taxes: you are the one who determines if you pay a full tithe (gross or net, before or after expenses, and so on).  It's done on the honor system: nobody demands to see your W-2s so they can be compared with your tithing receipts for the year.  

 

 And TBH I don't think church leaders take being entrusted seriously.... for how big the church is it owns a lot....

 

 

You might feel differently about that if you take the opportunity to review Elder Bednar's address that I mentioned earlier.

 

... but I still pay it so I can go to the temple with my wife and be together forever.

 

 

Fair enough.  Those don't sound like bad reasons to pay tithing.  I wish you well.

[Kenngo1969]

Well, that is contingent on if the church is true then I'd be mocking that God. But I think that there are plenty that go without a firm testimony.

 

 

I'm sure this is probably true... but I think the difference is in attitude and what is in your heart... but people still have to be tithe payers, and able to answer the TR questions with an honest heart.

 

GG

I wonder what would happen if Tacenda were to meet with her Bishop and take the "Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief" and the "If thou canst do no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you" approaches.  I could be totally wrong: I don't know her bishop (nor do I know her, except in cyberspace), but I can't imagine a horrible outcome, and I think Tacenda would have a weight removed from her shoulders. (Easy for me to say, I know! ) Judges in Israel aren't supposed to be like Judge Judy!

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

Kenngo, I can almost guarantee I would be given the opportunity, if I know my bishop. I would only stumble on the TR question of belief, all the others I can say yes to, if my husband agrees to pay tithing that is.

Sometimes I stumble on a few doctrinal beliefs though. And it probably belongs in another thread. But it's on Satan, why would we want to be Gods if that's what Satan tried to be, and why would Satan want us to do what God wanted us to do, wouldn't he want the opposite if he is so bad? Why is Eve eating the fruit, a good thing? There are more, but those are the biggies. Some say we are Satanists for believing we want to be Gods. What if we are being beguiled? But again, don't know if we need to go the rounds on this, I can't seem to get over this.

[Calm]

Why can't you go in and tell him you would pay tithing, but to do so would cause conflict between you and your husband? Or do you only want a recommend to go to the temple with your husband so that wouldn't solve your difficulty?

Edited April 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Satan tried to be a God his way, not the Lord's way. God has promised we will be one with him through his way. Satan wanted to be separate and have all glory to himself, share it with no one.

"why would Satan want us to do what God wanted us to do, wouldn't he want the opposite if he is so bad?"

Lucifer wasn't stupid, he knew theGod's plan would succeed no matter what he did, ant effort to stop it would be wasted. So why not attempt instead to hijack it for himself? If the whole point of his original plan was to usurp God's glory, this was just most likely another way to go about that while knowing he couldn't fight and win against God...just another try for attention as in "look, I am the one who got the ball rolling, not Christ, honour me, etc. etc."

Edited April 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Why can't you go in and tell him you would pay tithing, but to do so would cause conflict between you and your husband? Or do you only want a recommend to go to the temple with your husband so that wouldn't solve your difficulty?

Yes, we would both need one. Especially to attend the weddings. If you knew his mom, you'd understand how crucial it is. She has some issues. She takes blame for any of her children's problems sometimes. Lately she has anxiety and can't sleep, she even told me she thought of suicide one night. I just don't want to set her off.

[Tacenda]

Update: sorry to make it all about me, but discussed more with hubby, he is considering going in together to talk to the bishop, yay. Now I'm starting to wonder if this was all a ploy to get me to want this, reverse psychology, because I think he still believes a lot of it.

[Kenngo1969]

Why is Eve eating the fruit, a good thing? ... 

 

2 Nephi 2:22-26

 

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

 

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

 

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

 

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

 

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

 

 

 

Moses 5:6-11

 

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

 

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

 

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

 

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

 

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

 

Some say we are Satanists for believing we want to be Gods. What if we are being beguiled? But again, don't know if we need to go the rounds on this, I can't seem to get over this.

 

It's not about what we want, it's about what God wants to give us:  What good parent doesn't want His children to have what He has (though, of course, I will always be subordinate to my Father: He will always be superior to [and older and wiser] than me.)  Do you want your children to progress, to grow, to learn, and to achieve success and happiness?  Why do you think God should be any different?

[Tacenda]

I guess I need something from the bible right now, that's how jaded I've become. You guys are the best, for putting up with me. I'm very stubborn, and don't deserve you, haha.

[Calm]

Psalm 82:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[Tacenda]

Psalm 82:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

That's a good one.

[Kenngo1969]

My search was rather cursory, but it did not uncover any parallel scriptures in the Holy Bible regarding the Fall to those in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.  One of the reasons why I am so grateful for the latter two sources is because they present a more complete picture of the Fall and of its role in the Plan.  If someone wants to accuse me of “playing tennis with the net down” (my phrase) because I believe in them and in continuing revelation, I’ll plead guilty.   Personally, (as much as I love the Bible) I think any member of the Church of Jesus Christ saying, “Where is it in the Bible?” is rather like that person being invited to a sumptuous feast (that’s someone else’s treat) and, when the waiter attempts to hand him a menu, saying, “I’ll just have a roll and water, thanks.”

 

 

Now, as to our eternal potential and destiny, see the following:

 

Phillipians 2:5-6:

 

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

 

 

 

Romans 8:16-18:

 

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[Tacenda]

My search was rather cursory, but it did not uncover any parallel scriptures in the Holy Bible regarding the Fall to those in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. One of the reasons why I am so grateful for the latter two sources is because they present a more complete picture of the Fall and of its role in the Plan. If someone wants to accuse me of “playing tennis with the net down” (my phrase) because I believe in them and in continuing revelation, I’ll plead guilty. Personally, (as much as I love the Bible) I think any member of the Church of Jesus Christ saying, “Where is it in the Bible?” is rather like that person being invited to a sumptuous feast (that’s someone else’s treat) and, when the waiter attempts to hand him a menu, saying, “I’ll just have a roll and water, thanks.”

Now, as to our eternal potential and destiny, see the following:

Just to let you know I read this and like most everything you write, enjoyed reading it. I notice you have a blog, I'll read what you have there. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your faith!