halconero Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Too much to read. I'm just gonna say this: I get that one must follow the word of wisdom and be worthy and maintain morals to get a recommend to the templeI get it that you have to be sealed and have endowments done to receive celestial glory.I get that you just have to be a good person in general. What I don't get, is the law of tithing. In order to receive the highest glory you must obey the law of tithing. Which is money, such a worldly thing compared to what I mentioned above to have to do in order to get ahead in the life after this one. IMO, just don't be a douche to people and you'll be fine. New Testament example time: Jesus asked the rich young man to give up his worldly goods. He also commended people for paying tithing. You are most definitely correct. Money is a worldly thing. God asks us to become less possessed by it. Neil A. Maxwell once said that the law of tithing wasn't so much about giving up worldly possessions, but making it so that those things possess us less. Alcohol is a worldly thing, so is sexual intercourse. Yet god asks us to give those things up as well. In short, the Laws of Consecration is the complete and utter surrender of everything an individual has and is to God. It is the surrendering of will, time, talents, and everything that the Lord has blessed someone with. Have you ever read the parable of the merchantman who found the pearl of great price in the New Testament? It says that he went and sold everything that he to obtain this pearl, which is a representation of the Gospel. In its context Jesus uses it to explain that one musn't let anything hold someone back from obtaining the kingdom. In this case I think that the law of tithing is perfect in many respects. It is one of the hardest laws for people to keep because it requires sacrifice. Yes, I know that someone people have any easy time with it, but when I have to take $1200 dollars from the $12000 I make during the summer, all of which goes tuition, rent, books, and food, it definitely makes me feel it. Something does hold me back from paying it. Yet, I know that by giving it up I'm coming closer to that complete surrender that God requires. A man having put his hand to the plow and looking back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.
halconero Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 It's not about membership, it's that tithing is REQUIRED to receive celestial glory. Fine. It's not optional if you want to receive celestial glory, a lot of things aren't. The desire to receive celestial glory is optional though. Nobody will force you there. Furthermore, I would posit that anyone truly desirous to reach Celestial Glory tithing wouldn't be a big issue. I would argue that many follow the law of tithing in their heart without ever paying a penny. While I'm not the judge I'd imagine that more than a few people will go to the Celestial Kingdom who kept the law of tithing in their heart without ever having payed anything.
Alan Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 The problem as I see it is that many, if not most saints do not understand the Law of Tithing, and don't obey it properly.Many struggle to pay it because they are trying to pay too much, so they give up. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) ... I would see it much like I see a student loan, it is money given us for a specific purpose, not for income. The benefit we received would be in being able to pay higher tithing due to better income later after graduation. ...Oh ... so that's how it's supposed to work. You mean I was supposed to, you know, actually do stuff (and get paid for it) with my degree rather than simply taking up a (very expensive! ) hobby! Well, so much for that! (There's always hope ... however faint ... that that'll change, I suppose ...) P.S.: Meantime, I write stuff that nobody (OK ... few people) read(s). Since so few people read my stuff even when it's published in print, I can't afford to have much of an ego. Still, even if next to nobody reads it, if I may have the temerity to say so, some of it is quite good. See here, for example (but beware! it's a whole nine pages ... single-spaced! ) http://www.scribd.com/doc/213500387/Long-Term-Unemployed-On-Government-Benefits See also here (but this one's twelve ...) http://www.scribd.com/doc/197162960/Is-the-System-Really-That-Broken-Observations-on-Public-Distrust-Potential-Solutions Edited March 20, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
MiserereNobis Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Our belief is that you are as likely as I am to get into the CK without paying a dime of tithing in this life (assuming of course you finally get your head on straight about this consubstantial stuff in the spirit world, after you see some resurrected beings and figure out that the Godhead really could be three persons doing the same job without sharing "Substance".) The banter between us is one of the reasons I keep posting here
JLHPROF Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 The problem as I see it is that many, if not most saints do not understand the Law of Tithing, and don't obey it properly.Many struggle to pay it because they are trying to pay too much, so they give up. Agreed. I still pay my 10%, but the doctrine is that you pay 10% of your surpplus (which is defined basically as profit leftover after you meet your stewardship/family needs). Basically, they way it was explained to me (and I understand it) is as follows:1. Under the law of consecration you sign all your possessions (time, talents etc) over to the Bishopric.2. They issue you a stewardship specifically designed to meet your needs and your family needs.3. You manage and grow that stewardship and create a surplus.4. Any surplus that is created is considered your increase and should be tithed back to the bishop's storehouse for the poor and needy. So if you remove #'s 1&2 because we don't technically live consecration the definition of #3 & #4 doesn't change. Tithing is still supposed to be 10% of your increase/surplus. But I'm not going to argue with the established request of the leaders. 10% of income is still less than turning everything over under consecration and so we are still asked for less today than God has previously required. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 Ya that's cause they're serving a mission, which is a church service. I don't see too many missionaries working at McDonald's I don't either. But you make my case that tithing is not required for the Celestial Kingdom. It is based on increase and God for his own reason(s) has declined to say what exactly increase is. BTW I've taken many members to the Temple for a session that have no increase so don't pay tithing.
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 The banter between us is one of the reasons I keep posting here Lately, that is about the same for me! We should take our act on the road. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Lately, that is about the same for me! We should take our act on the road. http://www.myinstants.com/instant/rimshot/ (You're welcome. ) Edited March 20, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 http://www.myinstants.com/instant/rimshot/ (You're welcome. )Love it!
Brian 2.0 Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 I don't either. But you make my case that tithing is not required for the Celestial Kingdom. It is based on increase and God for his own reason(s) has declined to say what exactly increase is.BTW I've taken many members to the Temple for a session that have no increase so don't pay tithing.But would "keeping the law of tithing" be required.I dare venture that whenever anyone is saying "paying tithing" is optional/required its shorthand for "keeping the law of tithing" is optional/required.
krampus Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 sure tithing is optional. there is nothing mandating you to believe in it, just as there is nothing mandating you to believe in God. It is all up to how you feel is right, and simply a matter of faith.
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 But would "keeping the law of tithing" be required.I dare venture that whenever anyone is saying "paying tithing" is optional/required its shorthand for "keeping the law of tithing" is optional/required. Yes it is. But we do not define what it is other than 10% of increase.
Brian 2.0 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Yes it is. But we do not define what it is other than 10% of increase. Well... it's been defined a bit further by the church now so you have to deal with the word "income", not just increase or interest.
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 Well... it's been defined a bit further by the church now so you have to deal with the word "income", not just increase or interest. The Church no longer uses inkind donations, but the basic concept is still the same.
Brian 2.0 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) The Church no longer uses inkind donations, but the basic concept is still the same. I think "income" can causes some issue for the people that tithe on their "surplus" (after paying their living expenses). Edited March 21, 2014 by Brian 2.0
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I think "income" can causes some issue for the people that tithe on their "surplus" (after paying their living expenses).` It is still left it up to the individual members to define. I myself pay on net(after taxes) then make up any difference from my tax return. It is easier on my accountant that way.
Brian 2.0 Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 I myself pay on net(after taxes) then make up any difference from my tax return. It is easier on my accountant that way. That's they way I did it as well... when I was paying. I never even heard of the "surplus" method some people use until recently. It hard for me to swallow becuase if you do it that way, you basically have to discard a lot of general conference talks as a misunderstanding of the law of tithing. Any talk that has a "we were at a crossroads, pay our rent/electric bill/etc or pay our tithing..." because those stories doesn't make sense under the surplus method as you would pay your rent and electric bill first and then tithe on what's left over. The surplus method talk would go more like this.. "we had a choice to make, go on that cruise or pay our tithing... we paid our tithing and miraculaously we got a check in the mail and we were able to go on that cruise."
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2014 Posted March 21, 2014 If it really a difference between paying the rent or paying tithing the Church will help, assuming it isn't too outlandish. IE; We just bought a multimillion dollar home, and can't pay the mortgage and tithing. I seriously doubt the Church would go for that idea.
Tacenda Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) My husband didn't pay tithing around tithing settlement, we didn't go. It's a first for us. I think we should have, especially if his mom finds out. We have missed a few family gatherings at the temple that we would normally have been there. If she finds out why, it would break her heart. Now as we back peddle, if we were to go to the bishop to renew our TR, would we pay back tithing for the whole year last year? My husband doesn't think we need to pay all the back tithing, but I think we do. Does anyone know how this works? ETA: we didn't pay for the whole year. But I had thought we were going to pay in a lump sum at they end of the year, until my husband threw me for a loop. Edited April 13, 2014 by Tacenda
thesometimesaint Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 My husband didn't pay tithing around tithing settlement, we didn't go. It's a first for us. I think we should have, especially if his mom finds out. We have missed a few family gatherings at the temple that we would normally have been there. If she finds out why, it would break her heart. Now as we back peddle, if we were to go to the bishop to renew our TR, would we pay back tithing for the whole year last year? My husband doesn't think we need to pay all the back tithing, but I think we do. Does anyone know how this works? ETA: we didn't pay for the whole year. But I had thought we were going to pay in a lump sum at they end of the year, until my husband threw me for a loop. Generally you don't have to pay back tithing, but you may be required to pay in regular increments for a year. Talk about to your Bishop.
Petey3 Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 I was recently involved in a conversation about tithing. The focus is whether tithing is paid from your income or your increase? It would be interesting to hear some conversation here about this.
Tacenda Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Generally you don't have to pay back tithing, but you may be required to pay in regular increments for a year. Talk about to your Bishop.Thanks, TSS. I just needed to talk the hubby into it, and wanted back up. I hate the lying to get out of the temple gatherings, be it weddings or birthday traditions. And the feeling we'll be struck down with something for not paying.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) With all of the debates that take place regarding tithing hereabouts in cyberspace, what's gonna happen when the Lord asks us to start living the Law of Consecration? P.S.: I think "increase" means "income." If it were otherwise, I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would have a much more difficult time fulfilling its mission. P.P.S.: As for how long one would have to pay tithing to demonstrate worthiness following a period of nonpayment, I don't know that there's a hard-and-fast rule: with my bishop, it's four months. Edited April 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969
Tacenda Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 That helps Kenngo, time to get our behinds in gear. And I agree, a lot of people exhaust their money and wouldn't have much if it was truly "increase". We would barely manage a church here and there, or if we're lucky, a few temples. As much as I hate the corporation side of the church, I see it is needed to survive.
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