Tithing Is Not Optional

[Calm]

For all you ex-missionaries, how long would you say was the average time from the first lesson to baptism?

 

In Catholicism, it is usually about a year to go through the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) classes.  It only took me three months, because I had been reading and studying on my own for about 3-4 years before I approached a priest, so I was already pretty knowledgeable.  The priest and I met twice a week for those two months and went through the entire Catechism, so I knew all the milk and the meat (and I had already done considerable research myself).

The reason for the shorter teaching time is back in the 50s or 60s I believe, a study was done in England on those converts who maintained high activity and commitment rates long after baptism. They asked them when they had felt the desire to be baptised and some other stuff I can't remember. The results were that the significant conversion event usually took place in the first few encounters and as time went on it was much less likely to occur...or at least one that created a Saint deep down in the heart. Prior to this many missionaries would spend much of their time teaching the same individual for months or even years in extensive discussions, thus limiting their ability to contact very many. The study resulted in the basic change of procedure to the shorter lessons with the challenge to be baptised in the first few, thus maximising the effectiveness of missionaries in general by concentrating primarily on those who will convert rather than expending considerable resources on those unlikely to. (doesn't mean they won't work with long term prospects, just don't keep pushing at those who demonstrate reluctance, etc)

This is from memory from the David O. McKay bio by Prince and another guy.

[Thinking]

No, because you can pay nothing in tithing and still have a temple recommend.

 

If someone has no personal 'increase', there is nothing to pay 10% of.  They can still receive every blessing though, including temple blessings, if they are otherwise worthy of them.

 

Paying zero tithing because you have no income is not what this discussion is about.

[Paloma]

I think a lot would depend on what those deeper issues were and if they were related at all to what you would strive to do in preparation to receive salvation and exaltation from God. Those should be shared IMO....anything that may require a change in behaviour. Some things people call "deeper" are not related to being a better Saint or seeking out God, but are more about gaining information or being able to place knowledge in a greater and more accurate context. Such things take time and are worthy pursuits, but should not IMO be reason to delay becoming a member anymore than finding out stories of your spouse's childhood and extended family or certain expectations of what holidays will be like should necessarily delay marriage (some things are significant and may impact the relationship dramatically...those should be discussed, but that can be very difficult to know as often t can be very individual and it may change over time so how to predict?)

 

Thanks for this thoughtful reply.

 

And I pretty much agree with what you say here.

 

Going further with your analogy of marriage, I also think of how important it is to have as thorough and realistic an understanding of one's future spouse, of what the marriage relationship involves and of what one's future will look life as far as can be foreseen, as possible.

 

It would be rather odd (as well as a red flag!) if one's future partner seemed to discourage questions about one's past or future expectations.

 

(I don't see this in you, calmoriah, but I do know that I was advised to not probe or question beyond what was presented to me by the missionaries.)

[bluebell]

Paying zero tithing because you have no income is not what this discussion is about.

 

If the thread is about how paying tithing is mandatory in the LDS church, then how is that not applicable to the discussion?  

[Calm]

I appreciate this depth of understanding!

 

I've always thought that Jesus' telling us we should "count the cost" encourages the idea that we should understand as fully as possible what we are committing ourselves to in entering a life of faith in him and following him.

Definitely would agree that part of being a Saint/disciple means knowingly following his path, but Jesus apparently walked up to the Twelve ad commanded them to follow him without much opportunity to "count the cost" right then.

There is a time and place for a deep examination of one's faith and other times and places for leaping into what appears to be an abyss with just a simple trust and hope, no matter how insane it sounds.

[phaedrus ut]

If tithing is optional and completely voluntary then why have Tithing Settlement and have a Tithing Declaration Report submitted annually for each member of the ward? And specifically have each member declare or Bishop enter one of four tithing statuses?

[Calm]

Thanks for this thoughtful reply.

 

 

(I don't see this in you, calmoriah, but I do know that I was advised to not probe or question beyond what was presented to me by the missionaries.)

I would be wary of a missionary who said that in a 'global' sense, but I can see a missionary saying something along the lines of 'this is not what we are here to discuss together, if you are interested in learning about those things perhaps there is a member in the ward that could help out there'.

[Paloma]

Definitely would agree that part of being a Saint/disciple means knowingly following his path, but Jesus apparently walked up to the Twelve ad commanded them to follow him without much opportunity to "count the cost" right then.

There is a time and place for a deep examination of one's faith and other times and places for leaping into what appears to be an abyss with just a simple trust and hope, no matter how insane it sounds.

Agreed!

 

But I go back to Jesus' teaching where he seemed intent on having his followers understand their commitment as fully as possible.

[bluebell]

If tithing is optional and completely voluntary then why have Tithing Settlement and have a Tithing Declaration Report submitted annually for each member of the ward? And specifically have each member declare or Bishop enter one of four tithing statuses?

 

If i understand correctly, a huge part of the end of the year tithing settlement has to do with the church's auditing system.  I think they also use the number of full tithe payers as one measuring stick for knowing the strength of an area in members-such as making a branch a ward, or putting in a new stake, building a temple, etc.

 

There are probably other reasons as well.

[Calm]

If tithing is optional and completely voluntary then why have Tithing Settlement and have a Tithing Declaration Report submitted annually for each member of the ward? And specifically have each member declare or Bishop enter one of four tithing statuses?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/12/why-tithing-settlement?lang=eng

[Paloma]

I would be wary of a missionary who said that in a 'global' sense, but I can see a missionary saying something along the lines of 'this is not what we are here to discuss together, if you are interested in learning about those things perhaps there is a member in the ward that could help out there'.

 

That is certainly a plausible scenario.

 

In the case I'm recalling, one of the missionaries actually told me afterward that he said what he did about not wanting me to probe or question because he was afraid I wouldn't want to join the church if I learned anything that wasn't "faith promoting".  (After his mission, this particular missionary became inactive and still is, as far as I know.)

 

I'm not suggesting that the "milk before meat" approach is necessarily deceptive.  And I don't think at all that it's intentionally deceptive in the vast majority of missionary endeavours.

 

But I see its potential to be a problematic concept when used to deter people from investigating further.

[thesometimesaint]

If tithing is optional and completely voluntary then why have Tithing Settlement and have a Tithing Declaration Report submitted annually for each member of the ward? And specifically have each member declare or Bishop enter one of four tithing statuses?

 

Tithing is completely voluntary. Tithing Settlement is completely voluntary.

[Duncan]

If tithing is optional and completely voluntary then why have Tithing Settlement and have a Tithing Declaration Report submitted annually for each member of the ward? And specifically have each member declare or Bishop enter one of four tithing statuses?

 

 

even attending those are optional unless you have a super duper vigilant exec. sec who puts a pistol to your head or something to get you to show up

[Thinking]

If the thread is about how paying tithing is mandatory in the LDS church, then how is that not applicable to the discussion?  

 

10% of $0 is $0

0% of $0 is also $0.

 

The member who has no income can declare whatever he/she wants to the bishop. In fact that member can claim to have paid 100% of income because 100% of $0 is $0. The ex-mormon who has no income can claim to have received a 1000% refund of his $0. "Take that - LDS Church!" It doesn't make sense to talk about optional tithing when the only option is $0.

[bluebell]

10% of $0 is $0

0% of $0 is also $0.

 

The member who has no income can declare whatever he/she wants to the bishop. In fact that member can claim to have paid 100% of income because 100% of $0 is $0. The ex-mormon who has no income can claim to have received a 1000% refund of his $0. "Take that - LDS Church!" It doesn't make sense to talk about optional tithing when the only option is $0.

 

The only option is hardly ever zero though, and that's an important distinction.

 

The adults that i know who pay no tithing are not devoid of money.  They aren't destitute (they typically, though not always, pay a fast offering, for example).  They just have no 'increase' of their own.  They are married to non or less active members who don't want them to use any of their income to pay tithing, or they have no regular income of their own but have access to money from other people.

 

I'm not trying to be nit-picky or split hairs.  I just think that if someone is going to make the blanket statement that tithing is mandatory in the LDS church then they need to be able to address all the different ways that tithing isn't actually mandatory.

[Brian 2.0]

If the thread is about how paying tithing is mandatory in the LDS church, then how is that not applicable to the discussion?

How about this... Whenever someone says "paying tithing" just think they are saying "keeping the law of tithing" and all is well.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

The only option is hardly ever zero though, and that's an important distinction.

 

The adults that i know who pay no tithing are not devoid of money.  They aren't destitute (they typically, though not always, pay a fast offering, for example).  They just have no 'increase' of their own.  They are married to non or less active members who don't want them to use any of their income to pay tithing, or they have no regular income of their own but have access to money from other people.

 

I'm not trying to be nit-picky or split hairs.  I just think that if someone is going to make the blanket statement that tithing is mandatory in the LDS church then they need to be able to address all the different ways that tithing isn't actually mandatory.

 

The church considers who do not pay due to no increase full tithe payers. That is how they are marked on the records of the church. When asked if they pay a full tithe during the temple recommend questions they are instructed to answer yes. 

[bluebell]

How about this... Whenever someone says "paying tithing" just think they are saying "keeping the law of tithing" and all is well.

 

That works for me, but I don't know that it actually deals with the OP, which seems to be that paying tithing is mandatory in the church.  

[thesometimesaint]

[bluebell]

The church considers who do not pay due to no increase full tithe payers. That is how they are marked on the records of the church. When asked if they pay a full tithe during the temple recommend questions they are instructed to answer yes. 

 

Yes, i know that.  

[Mystery Meat]

I am surprised how many of you don't understand what it means to be voluntary. Tithing is 100% voluntary. Those of you who disagree are just plain and simple wrong. The church (not to mention the scriptures) teaches us it is important, and perhaps, even essential to our salvation. Does that make it involuntary? No. You don't have to pay tithing. You don't have to give 10% or even 1%. Nobody will FORCE you (unlike income taxes, which is a good comparison). The Lord will never force anyone to the Celestial Kingdom, he doesn't force anyone to get baptized, he doesn't force anyone to accept His Son and receive the blessings of forgiveness, and he doesn't force anyone to pay tithing and receive the promised blessings associated with the law.

 

Now if you want to be in good standing with the Lord, the LDS Church teaches that we should pay a tithing of 10% of our increase. Even then the Lord will not force the 10% from your paycheck or wallet. The threat/promise/outcome of eternal consequences for not paying are a matter of faith. But they are still voluntary. 

 

If a person does not want to pay tithing, the Church does not force them to. They teach principles surrounding tithing (including those related to consequences for not paying, such as temple privileges being taken away), that they believe the Lord has asked them to teach. It is every member and every investigators choice to decide if they will pay tithing. You will not be forced. 

 

It seems to me, that there are now voices and forces who would, in contrast to the Church's current view that the payment of tithing is a choice, force the LDS Church to permit people to enjoy all blessings associated with full membership regardless of whether or not they have paid tithing. If the church will not allow this, there will be suits and threat of suits. They want to impose or force something involuntarily on the Church, which I find ironic.

 

The problem is, we can't have it both ways. I submit that it may in fact be impossible to be an active member of the Church, entitled to every single blessing associated with such membership and not pay tithing. That, however, does not make it involuntary. What it does it presents a choice (you know, a decision that we each have to voluntarily make): do I want to be entitled to every single blessing associated with membership in the Church or not? If yes, the CHOICE is simple, pay tithing. If not, then don't.

[Mystery Meat]

Is obeying the law of chastity voluntary? What about the Word of Wisdom? We are taught to be obedient to them and disobedience will keep us from the temple. Are obeying those laws and commandments not voluntary then but signs of forced servitude merely because our salvation (at least in part) is tied to some degree of obedience with those laws?

[Mystery Meat]

It seems to me the better discussion to be having and probably the one those who don't think it is voluntary are meaning to have, is whether or not threat of eternal damnation or withholding privileges if you don't pay tithing is manipulative. 

 

Manipulation (and I don't think that is what it is) does not make something involuntary.

[CV75]

In response to the fraud case, many are claiming that tithing is optional. I beg to differ.

I find arguing over money gauche.

[MiserereNobis]

I am surprised how many of you don't understand what it means to be voluntary. Tithing is 100% voluntary. Those of you who disagree are just plain and simple wrong. The church (not to mention the scriptures) teaches us it is important, and perhaps, even essential to our salvation. Does that make it involuntary? No. You don't have to pay tithing. You don't have to give 10% or even 1%. Nobody will FORCE you (unlike income taxes, which is a good comparison).

 

 

No one forces you to pay income tax, either.  If you choose not to pay, you suffer the consequences (fines, jail, etc).  Isn't the same true of paying tithing?  No one forces you to, but if you choose not to, you suffer the consequences (not being temple worthy, not getting to the celestial kingdom, etc).

 

I said it before:  if we stretch the definitions of mandatory and optional so far as to mean that anytime we have a choice to do something then doing it is optional, it makes the word meaningless.