bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 His wife was a member. The SP asked to meet with him he thought it was a calling for her. The SP said he was impressed to offer him the calling. He went home, prayed about it, and accepted. He was baptized, ordained a member, a melchezdik priesthood holder, and set apart as EQ President all in one day I believe that is what President Boyd K. Packer would call a 'battlefield commission'.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Short on posts, but need to comment!! Bluebell, as long as I've read your amazing and intelligent posts, this one stops me in my tracks. We have been taught in this church that taking out our endowments and making covenants is the end all be all, how could you say you have the fullness of membership without that? It seems as if your comment was a bit disingenuous, but I'm sure you'll set me straight. So you are saying my daughter is not a full member? that my bishop was lying when they sustained her as a member. My brother isn't a full member? Some of the full time missionaries in my mission weren't full members?Shame on you!
jaxenro Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 setus lupetus!!!! where was this if you don't mind me asking?!Massachusetts Springfield Second Ward
Thinking Posted March 18, 2014 Author Posted March 18, 2014 If there are consequences to not paying your tithing how can it be optional? According to some of your arguments, everything is optional because of agency. IMO you are overextending the definition. Tithing is not optional if you want to enjoy all the blessing/benefits of being a member. Contributing to the perpetual education fund is optional, because not contributing won't disqualify you from temple participation or anything else. I could choose to not send my monthly house payment, but I can't do so without consequences, so making my monthly house payment is not optional. I can, however, choose to pay more than the minimum. Paying extra is optional, paying the minimum is not. 1
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Tithing is required in the same way as 1. Attending meetings2. Obeying the law of chastity3. Obeying the word of wisdom4. Forgiving your enemies5. Observing the sabath6. Sustaining the church leaders.7. Every other commandment. The lord doesn't give optional commandments. However if 100% obedience were required to be a full member, there wouldn't be any. By the way, you don't need to pay back tithing to be considered a full tithe payer (even if you haven't been paying in a while) so there is not "debt" that accrues if you aren't paying your tithing. 4
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 If there are consequences to not paying your tithing how can it be optional? That's kind of like saying 'if there are consequences to not taking birth control, then how can birth control be optional?'
jaxenro Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Being a member of the Church is optional just as taking out a mortgage. The rest flows from the optional choices you make
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 IMO you are overextending the definition. That is my feeling, too. I wonder if the overextension of the definition of the word optional is due to some defensiveness regarding the fraud case? If so, you've bought into the idea that mandatory tithing equals fraud, which is a ridiculous notion. There are lots of mandatory things in Catholicism, including financially supporting your parish (though we don't have a set amount and no one keeps track). 1
rpn Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Mandatory tithing is impossible if you believe in agency and God's plan of salvation. It was Satan's plan, that was rejected. The TP position is that people pay tithing because of these teachings and they are false and therefore fraudulent since if the people knew that Adam and Eve didn't actually live 6K years ago, or that the Book of Abraham isn't translated from the parts of the papyri that we still have or that native americans aren't descended from an Israelite family or the Nauvoo Expositer didn't had to be destroyed because it was lying about Joseph Smith, etc, they then wouldn't have paid any of the tithing. I have been totally flummoxed by the outcry I've been hearing from people who claim tithing is mandatory in the church. It also saddens me that so many have felt like tithing (probably all the commandments since the same argument would fit) is imposed on them. No wonder people feel like they are breaking under the demands and expectations of the faith. If I thought I HAD to do all the stuff I choose to do, I could see where that could become burdensome pretty dang quickly. But for those who are in this predicament I wonder how they missed that there is really nothing about force in Heavenly Father's plan. (Which is also the reason I want to throw up when I'm told that a man asks for a temple recommend and the bishop says he'll give him one only if he writes a check for the last year of tithing.) 2
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 That's kind of like saying 'if there are consequences to not taking birth control, then how can birth control be optional?' There are consequences to not taking birth control... they just happen to be wonderful blessings from God! (says the Catholic with a grin on his face)
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 That is my feeling, too. I wonder if the overextension of the definition of the word optional is due to some defensiveness regarding the fraud case? If so, you've bought into the idea that mandatory tithing equals fraud, which is a ridiculous notion. There are lots of mandatory things in Catholicism, including financially supporting your parish (though we don't have a set amount and no one keeps track). Considering all the benefits that come from tithing (chapels, heat, materials, websites, and a million other benefits), it wouldn't bother me, in that regard, if tithing was mandatory. But I don't see tithing as the equivalent of a membership due. I'm glad that someone can be a member and not pay tithing. I think it is very important for people to understand that, and to understand what that means in regards to exactly what tithing is and why we pay it. Money does not give us access to the Kingdom of God, but at the same time, tithing is a commandment that God asks us to keep.
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Mandatory tithing is impossible if you believe in agency and God's plan of salvation. It was Satan's plan, that was rejected. The TP position is that people pay tithing because of these teachings and they are false and therefore fraudulent since if the people knew that Adam and Eve didn't actually live 6K years ago, or that the Book of Abraham isn't translated from the parts of the papyri that we still have or that native americans aren't descended from an Israelite family or the Nauvoo Expositer didn't had to be destroyed because it was lying about Joseph Smith, etc, they then wouldn't have paid any of the tithing. I have been totally flummoxed by the outcry I've been hearing from people who claim tithing is mandatory in the church. It also saddens me that so many have felt like tithing (probably all the commandments since the same argument would fit) is imposed on them. No wonder people feel like they are breaking under the demands and expectations of the faith. If I thought I HAD to do all the stuff I choose to do, I could see where that could become burdensome pretty dang quickly. But for those who are in this predicament I wonder how they missed that there is really nothing about force in Heavenly Father's plan. (Which is also the reason I want to throw up when I'm told that a man asks for a temple recommend and the bishop says he'll give him one only if he writes a check for the last year of tithing.) By this definition, nothing is mandatory (as you even noted by the part I bolded). That totally ruins the definitions of mandatory and optional. No one is saying that you don't have free-will, that you can't choose. If I'm told at work that I have a mandatory meeting I have to attend I don't respond with, "oh no, that's Satan's plan and it was rejected!" (though I certainly feel that mandatory meetings are the work of the devil, ha!). I understand it to mean, as does *everyone* else, that the meeting is required and there will be negative consequences if I do not attend. I know that confession is mandatory for salvation. This doesn't mean that God is forcing me to confess -- it just means that it is required. I guess it seems pretty clear to me that paying tithing is mandatory/required for full blessings of the LDS church. The arguments to the contrary have not been persuasive, as they are simply redefining the word mandatory so that nothing fits it. Please don't stretch the meaning of mandatory and optional so far. It makes the words useless and impractical.
Calm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Can they prove that President Monson does not believe the story of the translation of the Book of Mormon? Or that he said or taught anything inconsistent with Church doctrine?I think if President Mondon was the first President of the Church and not the 16th it would be an easier case to make. Time does have a way of ligitimizing thingsThe argument that I've seen given is it doesn't matter if he believes in it or not, if it can be proved to be false, it is a fraud.
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Considering all the benefits that come from tithing (chapels, heat, materials, websites, and a million other benefits), it wouldn't bother me, in that regard, if tithing was mandatory. What would be the consequence of not paying a mandatory tithing? Loss of membership? But I don't see tithing as the equivalent of a membership due. I'm glad that someone can be a member and not pay tithing. I think it is very important for people to understand that, and to understand what that means in regards to exactly what tithing is and why we pay it. Yes, this makes sense. Tithing is not a membership due. It's not mandatory for membership. But it is mandatory for the full blessings of the LDS church, right? Maybe it would be more useful if we said "required" instead of "mandatory" Money does not give us access to the Kingdom of God, but at the same time, tithing is a commandment that God asks us to keep. You are saying that tithing is necessary for salvation, but not sufficient, right?
Gray Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 There are some interesting quotes in there that seem to go against the idea that tithing is optional. A legal debt, an obligation, a requirement, and not a freewill offering. ETA: I just want to be clear that I think that fraud case in England is wrong and stupid. I'm not arguing for that. I'm just trying to understand the LDS view of tithing. I think that is a distinction we don't get growing up in the church. We don't have this concept of freewill offering regarding tithing. I think most other churches use that standard. Agreed regarding the fraud case.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) By this definition, nothing is mandatory (as you even noted by the part I bolded). That totally ruins the definitions of mandatory and optional. No one is saying that you don't have free-will, that you can't choose. If I'm told at work that I have a mandatory meeting I have to attend I don't respond with, "oh no, that's Satan's plan and it was rejected!" (though I certainly feel that mandatory meetings are the work of the devil, ha!). I understand it to mean, as does *everyone* else, that the meeting is required and there will be negative consequences if I do not attend. I know that confession is mandatory for salvation. This doesn't mean that God is forcing me to confess -- it just means that it is required. I guess it seems pretty clear to me that paying tithing is mandatory/required for full blessings of the LDS church. The arguments to the contrary have not been persuasive, as they are simply redefining the word mandatory so that nothing fits it. Please don't stretch the meaning of mandatory and optional so far. It makes the words useless and impractical. Of course the law of tithing is mandatory to God, but it is not mandatory for being a member of the church. No church discipline is given to someone who is not paying tithing. Membership is not in jeopardy for not paying tithing. Edited March 18, 2014 by Danzo
Garden Girl Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Bottom line is that no one is forced to pay tithing. Everyone has the choice to pay or not to pay. But let's be honest here, we know that if a member is not paying tithing, they are not thought of as fully worthy. They are on the Bishop's radar and he is going to try to work with them to encourage them to pay tithing so that they will be temple worthy (married or not if they are of the proper age). Children are taught to pay tithing. It is a commandment....and so on. So, are we forced? No. But, can we attend the temple, be present for family temple marriages, or be fully worthy if we're not paying tithing? No again. You are correct... we cannot receive a temple recommend if we do not live the Law of Tithing...Nor can we receive a temple recommend if we do not live the Word of Wisdom...Nor can we receive a temple recommend if we do not live the Law of Chastity...Nor can we receive a temple recommend if we cannot answer the rest of the temple recommend questions properly and honestly...The choice is ours... whether we will live the gospel to receive the highest blessings, including the temple... or whether we will choose to forego some blessings... which does not affect our membership in any way. GG
Calm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Short on posts, but need to comment!! Bluebell, as long as I've read your amazing and intelligent posts, this one stops me in my tracks. We have been taught in this church that taking out our endowments and making covenants is the end all be all, how could you say you have the fullness of membership without that? It seems as if your comment was a bit disingenuous, but I'm sure you'll set me straight.As an eight year old newly baptised,I considered myself a full member of the Faith.Was I wrong?
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Would this be an accurate statement? "In the LDS church, agreeing to pay tithing once baptized is required in order to join. Once a member, paying tithing is not mandatory for membership, but is mandatory to receive the full blessings the church has to offer, such as those which come from the temple."
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 What would be the consequence of not paying a mandatory tithing? Loss of membership? In my opinion, yes. Yes, this makes sense. Tithing is not a membership due. It's not mandatory for membership. But it is mandatory for the full blessings of the LDS church, right? No. And this is the important distinction. Tithing is not mandatory for the full blessings of the LDS church. It's not even mandatory for the full blessings from God. Being willing to pay tithing and do our very best to be obedient to that commandment is mandatory, but that is all. You are saying that tithing is necessary for salvation, but not sufficient, right? Not exactly. If i was saying that then that would mean that someone HAD to be perfect in the payment of tithes. Since paying tithing means to pay a 10th, any less would be a failure of the commandment. If perfection is necessary, then that would be a problem. I'm saying that a willingness and sincere desire to pay tithing is necessary but not sufficient for salvation, but isn't necessary for church membership.
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Would this be an accurate statement? "In the LDS church, agreeing to pay tithing once baptized is required in order to join. Once a member, paying tithing is not mandatory for membership, but is mandatory to receive the full blessings the church has to offer, such as those which come from the temple." It leaves out the fact that someone can pay zero in tithing and still receive the full blessings which God has to offer. But it's a fairly good summary if that distinction is made.
MiserereNobis Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) It leaves out the fact that someone can pay zero in tithing and still receive the full blessings which God has to offer. Can you explain this? If paying tithing is required for the temple, wouldn't paying zero in tithing deprive someone of the full blessings which God has to offer, namely those which come from the temple? Edited March 18, 2014 by MiserereNobis
SeekingUnderstanding Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 That's kind of like saying 'if there are consequences to not taking birth control, then how can birth control be optional?'If you want to have "relations" with your wife, you are both fertile, and you don't want more kids, birth control is not optional. If you are a believing latter-day saint Dad who wants to confirm his daughter a member of the church, tithing is not optional. If you are a latter-day saint mother who wants to see her daughter get married in the temple, tithing is not optional. If you are a believing latter-day saint who wants to be exalted, tithing is not optional. If you just enjoy some social aspects of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, tithing is optional. Perhaps we are just speaking from different starting points. Of course everything is optional as long as we don't care about the outcome. Once we decide what outcome we want, certain things are no longer optional. For a believing latter-day saint striving for exaltation, keeping a temple recommend is not optional.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Can you explain this? If paying tithing is required for the temple, wouldn't paying zero in tithing deprive someone of the full blessings which God has to offer, namely those which come from the temple?It depends on how much that person received in increase (which I believe the modern Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints defines as income). If one receives income, one pays tithing on it; if one receives no income, one has no tithing to pay.
Danzo Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 If you are a believing latter-day saint Dad who wants to confirm his daughter a member of the church, tithing is not optional. Wrong
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