Tithing Is Not Optional

[bluebell]

If you don't pay income tax, your wages are garnished. If you don't pay tithing you burn: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

 

Which is worse?

 

That tithing is a requirement of God is a religious belief.  It is a subject of faith.  There is no comparison between that and the very real, very factual and provable consequences of not paying taxes.

 

A court is capable and responsible to rule on tax issues.  Are you suggesting that the court should also rule on whether or not paying tithing has spiritual consequences?

 

I don't know which consequence is worse (it probably depends on the person answering the question) but this has got to be the worse comparison made so far.

Edited March 18, 2014 by bluebell

[jaxenro]

If you don't pay income tax, your wages are garnished. If you don't pay tithing you burn: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

Which is worse?

Typically your wages a garnished by pay period to pay income taxes. Not after you don't pay. And such garnishment optional they call it "withholding" in the US

Last I knew the Church didn't garnish my wages to collect tithing. And the link you posted is only valid if I believe the author of the link.

[JLHPROF]

In my opinion, mandatory tithing would mean that tithing was a requirement for membership in the church.

 

Exactly.  Tithing, like every other law of the gospel, is subject to our agency.  If we don't live it, we don't receive the blessing attached, but there is no requirement to live it to be a member of the Church.  There IS a requirement to live it if you want the blessing attached (see D&C 130:20-21)

 

Just as if we don't marry we miss out on blessings (exaltation etc) but we can be single and still be in the Church.

Just as if we don't take out our endowment we miss out on blessings but we can be unendowed members.

Just as if we don't obey the word of wisdom we miss out on blessings, but not all members follow it equally.

And so on...

 

So then what is a requirement for membership in the church?  If tithing is optional, what is not optional?

 

I was told by Mormon friends a while back, when we were discussing excommunication in our faiths, that an excommunicated member is not allowed to donate to the church (pay tithing), but a non-member is.  For those who would know, is this accurate?

 

The only requirement for entrance into the Church should be the 4 first principles - Faith (testimony), Repentance (in progress), Baptism, and Confirmation.  Basically, you have to show that you want to be a member and you are working on your progression.

[MiserereNobis]

The only requirement for entrance into the Church should be the 4 first principles - Faith (testimony), Repentance (in progress), Baptism, and Confirmation.  Basically, you have to show that you want to be a member and you are working on your progression.

 

What about maintaining membership, not just entrance?

[bluebell]

So then what is a requirement for membership in the church?  If tithing is optional, what is not optional?

 

I was told by Mormon friends a while back, when we were discussing excommunication in our faiths, that an excommunicated member is not allowed to donate to the church (pay tithing), but a non-member is.  For those who would know, is this accurate?

 

Faith in Christ, repentance of sins, belief in specific doctrines, a commitment to do your best to be obedient to specific commandments, baptism by immersion by someone with authority to perform the ordinance and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by someone equally authorized.

 

You do all that and you will be a member.  And without paying a cent in tithing.  

 

After you are a member, you will remain one whether you ever pay a single cent in tithing or not.  

[jaxenro]

What about maintaining membership, not just entrance?

You remain a member regardless. Loosing member is a specific function and I am unaware of thd Church recently (last 50 years) excommunicating anyone for not paying tithing

[Tacenda]

I haven't been following the case too closely, can anybody provide a link showing what Philips is actually arguing? If he's claiming someone's membership will be affected if they fail to pay tithing then he's clearly wrong, however if he's arguing one is compelled to pay tithing due to loss of temple privileges and in effect their eternal salvation then I think a case can be made.

Definitely.

[bluebell]

What about maintaining membership, not just entrance?

 

I said it already but I'll answer it here as well.

 

Your membership in the church will never be threatened or on the line for not paying tithing.  As far as membership goes, tithing is not an issue.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

In my opinion, mandatory tithing would mean that tithing was a requirement for membership in the church.

Tithing is not required for continued church membership, but is required for full participation.

[bluebell]

Tithing is not required for continued church membership, but is required for full participation.

 

This idea is completely subjective and based on opinion.  

 

I completely disagree.  

[Tacenda]

This idea is completely subjective and based on opinion.

I completely disagree.

Short on posts, but need to comment!! Bluebell, as long as I've read your amazing and intelligent posts, this one stops me in my tracks. We have been taught in this church that taking out our endowments and making covenants is the end all be all, how could you say you have the fullness of membership without that? It seems as if your comment was a bit disingenuous, but I'm sure you'll set me straight.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

That tithing is a requirement of God is a religious belief.  It is a subject of faith.  There is no comparison between that and the very real, very factual and provable consequences of not paying taxes.

 

A court is capable and responsible to rule on tax issues.  Are you suggesting that the court should also rule on whether or not paying tithing has spiritual consequences?

 

I don't know which consequence is worse (it probably depends on the person answering the question) but this has got to be the worse comparison made so far.

I am not suggesting that any court should rule on anything. I hope that Tom Phillip's prosecution gets thrown out. As for the comparison, for a believing member tithing is no more optional than income tax. Both have very real consequences. One has consequences for this life. The other has real eternal consequences as well as consequences for this life. If you don't pay tithing you will burn at the second coming. I am not aware of any other church that has similar rhetoric to ours regarding tithing. Are you? We call it the "law" of tithing. We call it robbing the lord if we don't pay. 

 

You are absolutely right that we have agency and as such everything that we do is optional. Obeying traffic laws is optional. If you get caught you might have your license suspended, but no one will take away your citizenship  You are also right that you will not be excommunicated if you don't pay tithing. There are real world consequences for non-tithing payers. You cannot participate in ordaining your sons, you cannot confirm people members of the church. You can't attend your children's temple sealings. You can't hold certain callings. These real world consequences are in addition to the eternal consequences.

 

Again, I hope with everything I have that Tom Phillips fails in his prosecution. Making religion a matter for the courts is absurd. 

[Duncan]

my folks are both retired and are now enjoying their pensions but neither pay tithing on it because they already have. They do pay a small sum just for the blessings and wanting to contribute something. No one forces them to pay this sum but they do it anyways. They both have recommends.

[Kenngo1969]

Also, consider this: Bishops of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are explicitly instructed (in Handbook 1) to not make the provision of Church material assistance to the needy contingent on worthiness (meaning they cannot make it contingent on the payment of tithing, or on anything else a member must do in order to remain worthy of a current Temple Recommend). Bishops can request that members provide service (e.g., building cleaning, grounds upkeep, putting up and taking down tables and chairs, et cetera) in return for material assistance.  If Phillips, et al, were to prevail in their fraud case against President Monson and the Church of Jesus Christ, they may well find that they've cut off their noses to spite their faces.  Such a victory would entail the perverse finding that the Church of Jesus Christ has committed fraud in the inducement with respect to providing nonmaterial theological benefits, on the one hand, while still providing tangible, material, nontheological benefits without regard to adherence to theological tenets, on the other hand.

 

If Phillips, et al, prevail, that will be a very strange set of circumstances, indeed. 

[Duncan]

I am not suggesting that any court should rule on anything. I hope that Tom Phillip's prosecution gets thrown out. As for the comparison, for a believing member tithing is no more optional than income tax. Both have very real consequences. One has consequences for this life. The other has real eternal consequences as well as consequences for this life. If you don't pay tithing you will burn at the second coming. I am not aware of any other church that has similar rhetoric to ours regarding tithing. Are you? We call it the "law" of tithing. We call it robbing the lord if we don't pay. 

 

You are absolutely right that we have agency and as such everything that we do is optional. Obeying traffic laws is optional. If you get caught you might have your license suspended, but no one will take away your citizenship  You are also right that you will not be excommunicated if you don't pay tithing. There are real world consequences for non-tithing payers. You cannot participate in ordaining your sons, you cannot confirm people members of the church. You can't attend your children's temple sealings. You can't hold certain callings. These real world consequences are in addition to the eternal consequences.

 

Again, I hope with everything I have that Tom Phillips fails in his prosecution. Making religion a matter for the courts is absurd. 

 

 

well, not paying tithing and getting callings. Where I live unless you are adamant or something weird you probably won't get a calling but we lack for brethren so who pays or not really isn't a question. Heck, we had a stake conference a few years ago and one of the speakers said he never had a recommend, never been to the Temple but was serving as an EQ Pres. So I think in some circumstances tithing is not really a question. 

[MiserereNobis]

And the link you posted is only valid if I believe the author of the link.

 

True, but he was the second counselor in the first presidency.

[jaxenro]

I was in a ward where a non member was called as EQ President

[jaxenro]

True, but he was the second counselor in the first presidency.

No my point being unless I believe the first Presidency represents God it is meaningless.

If I make a claim that God spoke to me and you choose to believe is that fraud?

[MiserereNobis]

No my point being unless I believe the first Presidency represents God it is meaningless.

If I make a claim that God spoke to me and you choose to believe is that fraud?

 

I'm not arguing for fraud (I think the case is ridiculous).  I was just saying that in that article, the author makes it seem as if tithing is quite mandatory, not optional.

 

ETA:  and even if tithing is completely mandatory, I would still think the fraud case was ridiculous.

Edited March 18, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[jaxenro]

I'm not arguing for fraud (I think the case is ridiculous). I was just saying that in that article, the author makes it seem as if tithing is quite mandatory, not optional.

It is, if you believe in the Church. It isnt if you don't. I was discussing fraud

[Duncan]

I was in a ward where a non member was called as EQ President

 

 

holy mackerel!

[jaxenro]

holy mackerel!

His wife was a member. The SP asked to meet with him he thought it was a calling for her. The SP said he was impressed to offer him the calling. He went home, prayed about it, and accepted. He was baptized, ordained a member, a melchezdik priesthood holder, and set apart as EQ President all in one day

[Duncan]

His wife was a member. The SP asked to meet with him he thought it was a calling for her. The SP said he was impressed to offer him the calling. He went home, prayed about it, and accepted. He was baptized, ordained a member, a melchezdik priesthood holder, and set apart as EQ President all in one day

 

 

setus lupetus!!!! where was this if you don't mind me asking?!

[bluebell]

Short on posts, but need to comment!! Bluebell, as long as I've read your amazing and intelligent posts, this one stops me in my tracks. We have been taught in this church that taking out our endowments and making covenants is the end all be all, how could you say you have the fullness of membership without that? It seems as if your comment was a bit disingenuous, but I'm sure you'll set me straight.

 

We are also taught, for example, that being married in the temple is the end all, right?

 

Are you willing to suggest that none of the currently single people in the church have access to the fullness of membership?  We are taught that having children is one of the purposes of this earth life.  Are you willing to suggest that childless couples do not have full access to the Kingdom of God because they aren't fullfilling that purpose?

 

I'm not at all downplaying the importance or positive consequences of being worthy to take part in ordinances which require obedience to specific commandments, tithing often being one.  I'm saying that I don't believe our membership in the church (which we believe to be God's kingdom on earth) is either 'full' or 'partial' based on where we are on the path which leads to eternal life.

 

In my understanding, simply having entered by the strait gate, and being on the path, grants us full citizenship.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For those who think tithing is optional, what would mandatory tithing look like? 

Taxes?