Is Eternal Marriage A Promise Or A Threat?

[thesometimesaint]

Where did that stat come from?

 

Just one of those useless factoids I've learned over the years.

[thesometimesaint]

Two points.

1. I don't believe God will require people to stay together if they don't want to, irrespective of temple ordinances.

2. Eternity is approximately 2,500 million years - not forever.

 

What is time to a timeless being?

[Calm]

Just one of those useless factoids I've learned over the years.

So as far as you know, it could be made out of thin air.

[Stone holm]

How does someone become the right person for someone without someone to be the right person for?

 

I hope so.

[mfbukowski]

How does someone become the right person for someone without someone to be the right person for?

We have the promise that we will have someone in the eternities.

 

Were I still in that situation I would do my best to be loving with everyone.  Obviously I do not quite live up to that yet. 

[Ahab]

An eternity with someone in which our only difference was gender would be my idea of hell.

 

I enjoy what I share in common with my wife, but I value her as an individual, not just someone whose every thought and action agrees with mine.

 

Unity is the ideal, for me and my wife. Not that I have to do everything my wife does, or that she has to do everything I can do, but I like it when I like what she likes and she likes what I like and we both agree that what we like are good things for each of us to be doing.

 

So what differences are there to speak of, at that point? How would you say we are different?  Is she really a totally different person than I am, as if she is not like me or I'm not like her?  We're each separate persons, but in every essential we are basically one and the same.

 

 

 

I don't see how we attain perfection and at the same time maintain any meaningfull differences.

Me either, and it sounds like heaven to me.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Ahab

[Garden Girl]

I cannot imagine an enjoyable existence in which all things will be "right". That sounds like playing a game knowing beforehand the outcome.

 

I believe that it is our differences as much as that which we share in common, that make a relationship. An eternal perfect companion sound to me like eternal boredom.

 

I am also curious how important our relationships we make here in this life will be after billions and billions of years of creating our own spiritual children.

 

I say again... God's kingdom will be filled with peace, cooperation, and harmony.... and an eternal perspective that will be on a different level than we experience in this life.

You are saying you would find that to be boring...   So you would prefer differences that would/could lead to envy, pride, infighting, pettiness... as opposed to peace and  harmony as we seek to work to the glory of Heavenly Father in whatever way we are to follow according to his design and wishes??  Hmmmm... 

 

GG

[CA Steve]

I say again... God's kingdom will be filled with peace, cooperation, and harmony.... and an eternal perspective that will be on a different level than we experience in this life.

You are saying you would find that to be boring...   So you would prefer differences that would/could lead to envy, pride, infighting, pettiness... as opposed to peace and  harmony as we seek to work to the glory of Heavenly Father in whatever way we are to follow according to his design and wishes??  Hmmmm... 

 

GG

As a mortal being, the descriptions I read about universal bliss sound like boredom, like listening to the same note forever, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over, like knowing all there is to know, like seeing the end of a competition before it started, like having the same love for my eternal spouse that I do for all other beings, like having a trillions of off spring instead of just 8, like listening to the same prayers over and over again a million billion times, like creating my 5,542,568,724th world, like being able to make a hole in one every time, and so on and so on.

 

I am sorry, but as a mortal I don't find perfection appealing, I find it to be the end of a journey I do not want to reach because the journey itself is sooooo very good. I think that life is valuable because it is a challenge. Should you choose to look at that as me as allowing or somehow enjoying envy, pride, infighting pettiness and so on, I would suggest that is exactly what our current God is also doing now.

[Tacenda]

As a mortal being, the descriptions I read about universal bliss sound like boredom, like listening to the same note forever, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over, like knowing all there is to know, like seeing the end of a competition before it started, like having the same love for my eternal spouse that I do for all other beings, like having a trillions of off spring instead of just 8, like listening to the same prayers over and over again a million billion times, like creating my 5,542,568,724th world, like being able to make a hole in one every time, and so on and so on.

I am sorry, but as a mortal I don't find perfection appealing, I find it to be the end of a journey I do not want to reach because the journey itself is sooooo very good. I think that life is valuable because it is a challenge. Should you choose to look at that as me as allowing or somehow enjoying envy, pride, infighting pettiness and so on, I would suggest that is exactly what our current God is also doing now.

I guess we can turn it around and do what Bill Murray did in "Ground Hog day".

My inactive daughter's biggest complaint in going to church was that they teach the same things over and over in church. I guess some people just want more.

[Ahab]

As a mortal being, the descriptions I read about universal bliss sound like boredom, like listening to the same note forever, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over, like knowing all there is to know, like seeing the end of a competition before it started, like having the same love for my eternal spouse that I do for all other beings, like having a trillions of off spring instead of just 8, like listening to the same prayers over and over again a million billion times, like creating my 5,542,568,724th world, like being able to make a hole in one every time, and so on and so on.

 

I am sorry, but as a mortal I don't find perfection appealing, I find it to be the end of a journey I do not want to reach because the journey itself is sooooo very good. I think that life is valuable because it is a challenge. Should you choose to look at that as me as allowing or somehow enjoying envy, pride, infighting pettiness and so on, I would suggest that is exactly what our current God is also doing now.

If you have what you think is a better way to live than our Father now lives, you can try to upstage him, if you want to.

 

Go for it.  Be the best kind of person you can imagine and then try to realize our Father is even better than you think he is.

[Calm]

I don't see CA as telling God he knows a better way to live. He is simply disagreeing with how some view God.

[Ahab]

I don't see CA as telling God he knows a better way to live. He is simply disagreeing with how some view God.

It's generally understood that we believe our Father is perfect, and CA was saying perfection to him equates to boring.

 

I was simply telling him that if he has what he thinks is a more exciting or somehow better idea of how to live than our Father now lives his life, he is free to try to live his life in a way that is not what he regards as the boring life of our Father in heaven.

[Stone holm]

As a mortal being, the descriptions I read about universal bliss sound like boredom, like listening to the same note forever, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over, like knowing all there is to know, like seeing the end of a competition before it started, like having the same love for my eternal spouse that I do for all other beings, like having a trillions of off spring instead of just 8, like listening to the same prayers over and over again a million billion times, like creating my 5,542,568,724th world, like being able to make a hole in one every time, and so on and so on.

 

I am sorry, but as a mortal I don't find perfection appealing, I find it to be the end of a journey I do not want to reach because the journey itself is sooooo very good. I think that life is valuable because it is a challenge. Should you choose to look at that as me as allowing or somehow enjoying envy, pride, infighting pettiness and so on, I would suggest that is exactly what our current God is also doing now.

I agree, and I suspect there is more to it so it does not bother me. I believe the alternative view of floating around on clouds singing praises and strumming harps would lead to Mark Twain's assessment about going to Heaven for the climate and hell for the company.

[Ahab]

I agree, and I suspect there is more to it so it does not bother me. I believe the alternative view of floating around on clouds singing praises and strumming harps would lead to Mark Twain's assessment about going to Heaven for the climate and hell for the company.

It's not about what we'll be doing so much as our attitude about what we are doing.

 

Depending on a person's attitude, living with the same woman forever and ever can be seen as a good thing, OR a bad thing.

 

... or for a "bad" thing I'll substitute the word "boring".

 

Depending on a person's attitude, having more and more children with a spouse can be seen as a good thing, OR a bad thing.

 

It's all dependent on our attitude.  Or maybe what kind of person we have as a spouse, or what we think of as what a child is.

 

To me, all of that would be good and would not be "boring" at all.  But then I'm one of those who likes to do what I like to do even if I've already done it before and I can't imagine getting tired of doing something I like doing or getting tired of being with someone I love who loves me.  And if some of my children didn't love me at least my wife always would because that's just the way that she is.

[mormonnewb]

As a mortal being, the descriptions I read about universal bliss sound like boredom, like listening to the same note forever, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over, like knowing all there is to know, like seeing the end of a competition before it started, like having the same love for my eternal spouse that I do for all other beings, like having a trillions of off spring instead of just 8, like listening to the same prayers over and over again a million billion times, like creating my 5,542,568,724th world, like being able to make a hole in one every time, and so on and so on.

I am sorry, but as a mortal I don't find perfection appealing, I find it to be the end of a journey I do not want to reach because the journey itself is sooooo very good. I think that life is valuable because it is a challenge. Should you choose to look at that as me as allowing or somehow enjoying envy, pride, infighting pettiness and so on, I would suggest that is exactly what our current God is also doing now.

Steve, I've often had the same thought. What I sometimes find surprising is how many people never seem to even ask the question: "Is this really something I would want?"

The people on this board don't fall into this category and I appreciate some of the prospectives you bring to the question. However, when I asked the eternal marriage question in EQ, my ward brothers looked at me as if I had two heads. I found it amazing that the question had never been raised by an investigator on their missions.

On second thought, this isn't unique to Mormons or even Christians in general. A Jihadist can be spurred to martyrdom with the promise of 72 virgins, when just 10 seconds of reflection would reveal that this promise makes no sense at all.

Edited December 28, 2013 by mormonnewb

[CA Steve]

I am curious as to why we should think that evil, pride, selfishness etc. etc. are all going away in our next existence? We know these things existed before we came here because a third of all God's children were cast out. If evil exited before and it certainly exists now, why do we assume it goes away in the next life? 

 

It also would be nice if people would stop accusing me of being in favor of evil, merely because I point out its existence.

 

And, in my opinion, most differences between people do not have to be defined as good or bad. I like steak, my wife doesn't. So what?

I suppose the part I don’t understand is how we retain our uniqueness and still attain perfection. I believe that those blemishes are what define us as distinct. Sometimes our defects are who we are, for good or for bad. At what point does doing away with all our human imperfections simply result in loss of individuality?

 

If we are to be of one mind, in the next life, I want it to be my mind.  

Edited December 28, 2013 by CA Steve

[CA Steve]

Steve, I've often had the same thought. What I sometimes find surprising is how many people never seem to even ask the question: "Is this really something I would want?"

The people on this board don't fall into this category and I appreciate some of the prospectives you bring to the question. However, when I asked the eternal marriage question in EQ, my ward brothers looked at me as if I had two heads. I found it amazing that the question had never been raised by an investigator on their missions.

On second thought, this isn't unique to Mormons or even Christians in general. A Jihadist can be spurred to martyrdom with the promise of 72 virgins, when just 10 seconds of reflection would reveal that this promise makes no sense at all.

Thanks.

 I love my wife, but certainly if one of us were to die, the other would, in all likelihood, marry again.

Why should eternity preclude circumstances where couples decided to go their separate ways?

 

Does the definition of perfection have to include a single eternal relationship? Why?

[Ahab]

I am curious as to why we should think that evil, pride, selfishness etc. etc. are all going away in our next existence? We know these things existed before we came here because a third of all God's children were cast out. If evil exited before and it certainly exists now, why do we assume it goes away in the next life? 

 

It also would be nice if people would stop accusing me of being in favor of evil, merely because I point out its existence.

 

And, in my opinion, most differences between people do not have to be defined as good or bad. I like steak, my wife doesn't. So what?

I suppose the part I don’t understand is how can we retain our uniqueness and attain perfection. Sometimes those blemishes are what define us as distinct. Sometimes our defects are who we are, for good or for bad. At what point does doing away will all our human imperfections simply result in loss of individuality?

 

If we are to be of one mind, in the next life, I want it to be my mind.  

Why your mind, and not mine?  Why can't we both be of the same mind about things, with both of us having the same mind as Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven?   Changing your mind isn't such a bad thing if what you're changing it to is a better thing.

 

There will always be some differences between us, but we can all be good and we can all like good things, instead of bad things.

 

Perfection, to me, is to be in agreement with how our Father in heaven feels and thinks about things, as if we all have the same mind on all issues. 

 

Why doesn't your wife like steak?  She could at least like the fact that you like it without having any bad thoughts or bad feelings against it.  Or maybe she has a valid point about why it's not good to like steak and we should all learn that it is a bad thing to eat.

[Ahab]

Does the definition of perfection have to include a single eternal relationship? Why?

No, not single, but married.   And the married couple is supposed to feel as if they are one.

 

Why wouldn't you want to be with your very best friend, and be with her for the rest of eternity?

[Flyonthewall]

It seems like a true Eternal marriage is only possible in the Celestial Kingdom. If a couple is in the CK, then they must be living the celestial law.

I have heard it said that if everyone was living the celestial law, it would not matter who we were married to.

[Stargazer]

I guess we can turn it around and do what Bill Murray did in "Ground Hog day".

My inactive daughter's biggest complaint in going to church was that they teach the same things over and over in church. I guess some people just want more.

 

I heard that, too, from my kids.  Oddly enough, they would complain about hearing the same thing about a topic such as the Word of Wisdom over and over again, when at most it was emphatically touched on two or three times per year, at most.  Actually, that "same thing over and over again" thing is nothing more than an excuse that doesn't hold water.  It only seems to be true -- in fact it is not true at all, and I will explain why.

 

The problem is this: not everyone is on the same page.  They have to teach the basics every week, or else someone is going to be onboard with higher things without hearing enough of the basics, and there's going to be a meat before milk thing going on that will cause problems.  But there is no real problem with a milk diet, because milk leads to meat, and they will get that, too, eventually.

 

Going to church every Sunday keeps you in the loop for service, for one thing, something everyone needs, and eventually you begin learning things that the teachers aren't teaching you -- you know, the things the Spirit teaches you over and above the basics you hear every week.  Once you understand the basics, it is now your job to help others who have not yet learned them, to also get on board.  That is also why those who teach classes in Church learn far more than they are teaching -- that is, if they are doing it right.

 

May I offer myself as an example?  I have learned so many NEW things at church over the years that were never taught by instructors.  Whenever I have self-studied this effect has increased.  I would not consider myself a gospel scholar, but going to church every week teaches me more and more new stuff.  Despite the fact that I hear the same lessons over and over.

[CA Steve]

Perfection, to me, is to be in agreement with how our Father in heaven feels and thinks about things, as if we all have the same mind on all issues. 

 

 

 

What is there to discuss if we are of one mind?

[CA Steve]

No, not single, but married.   And the married couple is supposed to feel as if they are one.

 

Why wouldn't you want to be with your very best friend, and be with her for the rest of eternity?

Are you implying that there is only one person who can be my very best friend? Wouldn't different people bring different things to a relationship? Why do we assume that the choice we made in this blink of an eye lifetime is one that we, as entirely different immortal eternal beings, will still want?

 

Who will Dallin Oaks be with in eternity?

 

What is the difference between having different companions in eternity at different times and someone who has multiple wives (polygamy) in eternity at the same time?

Edited December 28, 2013 by CA Steve

[Robert F. Smith]

Two points.

1. I don't believe God will require people to stay together if they don't want to, irrespective of temple ordinances.

2. Eternity is approximately 2,500 million years - not forever.

Is that just wishful thinking, or could you fulfill a CFR?

[Calm]

What is there to discuss if we are of one mind?

I believe I am more of your view. I see no reason why our tastes in food, entertainment, areas of learning, etc. will suddenly be identical just because we are perfect in love and compassion and knowledge and understanding (even if we assume that means full omnisciency.) I would not be the least bit surprised to find that there are still some that prefer to walk down a beach or mountain path on their own while others enjoy more a huge family reunion party with lots of music, food, fun activities and maybe even some dancing (chances are I will be in the former group).

I don't see the goal of perfection as movement from individuality to being basically clones of our Heavenly Parents, but rather the maximum development of that individuality.

PS: you mentioned being entirely different immortal beings...I don't see that as likely, while there will be progression, we won't trade in our core attributes that have been part of us always for others. If we can't recognise ourselves if we saw our perfected selves now, it will be the inability to understand perfection, not that we've changed so dramatically to be unrecognisable. Instead I see us as being more 'real', more intense versions of ourselves with the loss of the clutter and contamination that accumulates on us as mortals refined away.

I also don't see a need for blemishes to remain as generally what can be expressed in ways that are negative can also be expressed in ways that are positives so that in an environment that allows full expression of the self, our differences won't result in the limited, at times crippling blemishes of mortality...but rather add to our glory (which is then a benefit for others to enjoy experiencing). For a mortal example, I stuttered when I was young for a variety of reasons, including having too many ideas I wanted to express at once. As I became better at expressing my thoughts, my stuttering disappeared. There is an older woman in my ward who stutters badly if she has to think about what she is saying, yet when she sings her words and voice comes clear and pure and uniquely hers. I see these examples as analogies as how we can become without blemish and still retain our perfection.

Edited December 28, 2013 by calmoriah