“I Know The Church Is True” – What Exactly Do You Mean?

[mfbukowski]

For what it's worth, I respect this. Instead of re-defining the mantra to mean anything you want so you can keep repeating it (Peterson's approach), do away with it altogether & say what you really mean.

Hopefully you'll start a healthy trend, smac97

--Erik

You have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of Peterson's approach. Before you understand it, all your illusive beliefs must be stripped away, as they have been for many of us here.

[teddyaware]

I think teddyaware has summarised adequately what most people mean when they say it.

Which is one of the reasons I no longer say it.

So do I risk being called a "board nanny" if I suggest you might want to unharden your heart just a bit?

[bluebell]

Interesting since I believe the church is not what it claims to be...

Why is that difference of belief interesting?

[mfbukowski]

As I have 7 minutes left on the treadmill & the kids are still in bed, sure, why not? "What is truth?" In his book, The Antichrist, Nietzsche argued Pontius Pilate's question was the undoing of the whole New Testament. (Peterson's a Nietzsche fan.)

Overlooked that the question was answered before it was even asked.

What are words for, eh, mfbukowski?

--Erik

Indeed that is the whole point. I am also a Nietzsche fan and you would do well to understand what he is about to be able to defend your faith better if nothing else.

Nietzsche's whole point is that god- that is the false god of traditional Neoplatonic "christianity" is dead. And he was right. More precisely he never existed.

Look at church attendance in the Western World. Is it prospering? Why not? Because those beliefs don't work in the modern world, much less the post-modern world, or even this present epoch of thought which hasn't been named yet, but is post-post-modern.

I would suggest that you look into the history of ideas, as Peterson and others like James Faulconer and McLachlan have done. But I think you would need to have some background study before you even start with them.

THEN you will understand the discussion and have something to say which is worthwhile. For now though, you just come off as uninformed.

This might be an easier start:

[mfbukowski]

So yes, I worship a "different God" than Neoplatonic "Christianity" and I am proud to say so.

I actually worship the God of the Bible.

Edited July 6, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

This has been moved?

Why, pray tell- so that the problem can be avoided in the future?

[Kenngo1969]

Joseph Smith, along with some of my ancestors, paid a very high price to perpetrate what some see as a mere fraud. I know Joseph saw a light; that in the midst of that light, he saw two personages; and that they did, in reality, speak to him. Like him, “I cannot deny it,” “neither dare I do so,” lest by so doing “I should offend God.” I know there has been an unbroken chain of apostolic succession from Joseph Smith’s ordination to that office to the present day. I know that priesthood authority has been restored to the earth. What do I mean when I say I know that the Church of Jesus Christ [or perhaps better said, the Gospel of Jesus Christ] is true? I mean that it has borne good fruit in my life; it continues to do so.

I have had no heavenly visitations, and I have had too many frustrating experiences of seeing only “through a glass, darkly”; notwithstanding those experiences (along with the lack of heavenly visitations to me personally), however, I have had experiences I cannot deny which have spoken truth to my soul. On one occasion, after having endured two failed major operations in a span of 27 months, I remember lying on an operating table before undergoing a third operation and (despite having been given plenty of cause for pessimism and precious little cause for optimism that things would work out any differently on this occasion than they had on the prior two, experiencing a palpable peace and a sure knowledge that God would orchestrate a favorable outcome. (And to those who have had such experiences who are not of my faith, I say, “Praise God!” You’ll never persuade me that God gives me bread, fish, and fruit while giving my non-Mormon Christian brothers and sisters [or, for that matter, my devout brothers and sisters of whatever religious stripe] stones, serpents, thorns, and thistles.)

Conversely , other experiences I have had are peculiar to my religious own tradition. Later on, when I had to undergo a physical in the course of preparing to serve as a full-time missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I was terrified that the examination might uncover something that not only would affect my ability to serve as a missionary, but the very quality of my life, as well. (Given my earlier experience, it might well be said, “Oh, me of little faith!” I had a wholly-unexpected Holy-Spirit-driven interaction with the Book of Mormon that settled my course then. For an account of that experience, see here:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=59&sourceId=aa7bc1de5cfeb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I also had an experience with one of the Gifts of the Spirit in the Missionary Training Center in Provo which reaffirmed for me my earlier experience with the Book of Mormon. (To anyone who has had a similar experience, whatever his or her religious tradition, I say, “More power to you.”—Literally.) What do I mean when I say I know that the Gospel is true? I mean that it “works”; it’s reliable; that I’ve planted good seeds, nourished them (although I could always do better tending the trees on which my spiritual fruit grows), and received good fruit in return.

Certainly, it can be said of good people of many different religious stripes that their devotion bears good fruit in their lives, so, “Why the uniquely-Mormon brand of Christianity?” I’m reminded of the Savior’s reaction when many of His disciples “walked no more with Him” after hearing some of His “hard sayings”: He asked the Apostles, “Will ye also go away?” Likewise, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t always easy. But if Joseph Smith, or Thomas S. Monson were to ask me, “Will ye also go away?” I hope I would echo Simon Peter: “Lord [or Brother Joseph, or President Monson], to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life.” And by no means do I mean to short-change others’ devotion to other religious traditions. For what I think is a useful approach to those not of my faith, see here:

http://www.greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

[CV75]

--Erik

I can only say what I mean by it when I say it.

First of all, it was never a mantra to me. I grew up in the Northeast USA, knowing nothing of Mormons. My conversion took place under unique circumstances where I was not exposed to the phrase, yet I used it in describing my experience and conclusions to others for several years prior to meeting the missionaries. If there was any influence in my adopting the use of the phrase, it would have been from the “Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith” pamphlet.

When I started to say it, which was immediately after receiving this spiritual witness, and when I say it now, it means that the Holy Ghost answered my question about which church to join. Instead of saying which one to join, the response was that the Mormon Church “is true.” At the time, it was clear to me that this meant that the Church is an organization with Christ at the head, with legitimate prophet and apostles. It also means that my certitude was so complete, that even though I was in circumstances that required me to wait five years to meet with the missionaries and be baptized, I remained resolute in that conviction. I still have the same interpretation, some 32 years later.

[cdowis]

This has been moved?

Why, pray tell- so that the problem can be avoided in the future?

A fair question.

The topic needs to fit into apologetics, encouraging discussion among both believers and critics. Bottom line: The OP was primarily addressed to believers.

You need to include a zinger to keep it in General Discussion -- e.g. any thread discussing a testimony will probably go to Social Hall.

Hope that helps.

Edited July 6, 2013 by cdowis

[Five Solas]

Indeed that is the whole point. I am also a Nietzsche fan...

That wasn't some accident, mfbukowski. Instead of calling me "uninformed" (and going on & on about it)--you might give me a little credit for reading you so rightly...

--Erik

[Robert F. Smith]

.............................................

Interested to hear if LDS still commonly say the words, “I know the Church is true” (It’s been 8+ years since I’ve sat through an LDS Fast & Testimony meeting). And if so, what exactly do they mean by it? Thomas Monson’s theology? The Salt Lake City-based church organization? The absence of a maximally powerful God (and the substitution of lesser deities)? The canon of scripture? The current leadership? Some combination? Something else entirely?

For Peterson, he says what he means by those words is that he’s “committing” himself to “the Church” in a way analogous to the vow he made to his bride on their wedding day. It’s a little ambiguous (welcome to Sunstone), we’re not clear what he even means by “Church.”

Hoping others here might take the trouble to explain it better.

--Erik

Yes, people still say it, Erik,

But more as a kind of liturgical, antiphonal response to the verbal prompting of others in a fast & testimony meeting.

Among primary children it can be regarded as an artifact of virtual catechism class, and I think it is helpful in giving children the poise they will need later to say things of more substance.

I myself have never used the phrase.

The intended meaning of it may run the gamut, but I take the words themselves to mean that the LDS Church is the authentic Kingdom of God on Earth, having as its objective (as an organization) the salvation of all mankind. As such it is a temporary, earthbound institution which may take whatever form is deemed necessary by the members of the priesthood of God (which is eternal). When the millennium is at an end and the last Judgment has taken place, that Church must wither away and be replaced by the eternal kingdoms of glory.

The observation that the Church is changeable, and that doctrine of God seems to change through time is illusory. This is because (1) the Church is a deliberately malleable institution designed to serve manifold purposes which change with time; but also because (2) fallible humans run the Church. The LDS Brethren do seek unity, but they are no more to be expected to agree with one another through time than were Peter & Paul, or any of the prophets of Classical Israel -- whom biblical scholars can classify according to differing theological views. God expects sincere efforts at cooperation, not lockstep. He realizes full well the human condition, and expects us to learn from it. Problems are an integral part of the Plan of Salvation. “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things” (II Nephi 2:11),

Edited July 6, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[cdowis]

A knowledge of the truth is just one of those gifts -- one of the spiritual gifts. Others have the gift to listen to those who testify and to believe on their words.

Those who can only say "I believe", they also have a special gift. They move on with their spiritual progress, while those with knowledge .... well, they really have no choice in the matter, do they. The witnesses to the BOM had the burden to testify, regardless of the circumstances of their testimony, regardless of their personal issues in their life.

JS demonstrated that having knowledge is a burden, a responsibility, and carries a duty, even in light of flaws and mistakes. Just believing is not such a bad thing.

Edited July 6, 2013 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

A fair question.

The topic needs to fit into apologetics, encouraging discussion among both believers and critics. Bottom line: The OP was primarily addressed to believers.

You need to include a zinger to keep it in General Discussion -- e.g. any thread discussing a testimony will probably go to Social Hall.

Hope that helps.

It helps explain the action, and I appreciate that, thanks.

It certainly does not help the apologetics of the issue by limiting its readership. I see fewer and fewer topics of substance and then those go to the "social hall"?

[mfbukowski]

That wasn't some accident, mfbukowski. Instead of calling me "uninformed" (and going on & on about it)--you might give me a little credit for reading you so rightly...

--Erik

Reading me rightly? Everyone on this board knows where I stand on these issues including you, from previous discussions.

And yet you have made no points whatsoever against Peterson's position, but simply pointing fingers and saying "He is a Nietschean!"

Witch trials are a thing of the past

[theplains]

But if Joseph Smith, or Thomas S. Monson were to ask me, “Will ye also go away?” I hope I would echo Simon Peter: “Lord [or Brother Joseph, or President Monson], to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life.”

The elders in church should not ask this question because Christ is the way, not them. But,

if by chance, they one day start preaching a false Jesus or Heavenly Father (which is contrary

to what we know of them in scripture), then I would go away from these elders because a false

Christ can lead one astray (as Jesus warned about).

Regards,

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

I gained my testimony of the church whilst a teenager, prayed about the BoM and got my answer, received my testimony. As I grew up I had issues with the church & eventually left, but at no time could I have enmity with the church. Too many times on my mission did I run into less-active members who were angry at the church because they had failed to live church principles, or because one person had offended them, or in someway wanted the church to change to fit their lives. I promised myself this wouldn't happen to me, we weren't a match - it was no-ones fault. I pushed my testimony down inside me & convinced myself that those "good feelings" meant nothing. A few weeks ago I ran into the missionaries in town & told them they were welcome to come over. We discussed many thing which culminated in me basically saying "I'm on the verge of hating God, if He continues down the path He's on I will never forgive Him...it will be over between us, He would have gone too far!!" One of the Elders looked at me with tears rolling down his cheek & said " I cannot begin to imagine what you have gone through or how I would react if I had, but I KNOW Heavenly Father loves you, I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the gospel..." He just bore his simple sweet testimony and I cannot describe the fire that burned within my chest, it was so intense I almost couldn't bear it. It burned away all my hardness and left me raw. It left me so that I could no longer deny what I knew, that the church is true & I needed to make my way back home. It's going to require great change & sacrifice on my part, but I cannot deny what the Spirit has testified to me so strongly. This is what it means to me to know that the church is true.

I've been there, brother. I know the feeling. Only the Holy Spirit could get me through it. I couldn't do it on my own.

All the best in your endeavors.

[Garden Girl]

I've been there, brother. I know the feeling. Only the Holy Spirit could get me through it. I couldn't do it on my own.

All the best in your endeavors.

Me too...

LordUther... As others here know my story, I was inactive many years... many... but always thre was a tugging by the Spirit because the Lord had given me a strong witness years ago that went right through me like fire... I always thought He gave me such a witness because he did know that I would need it through the years... finally, I heeded the Spirit and 18 years ago returned to Church. Oh how sweet that witness was that came once again so strong and sure... and here I am today...

I too wish you all the best as you travel this path of rediscovery...

GG

[Calm]

This has been moved?

Why, pray tell- so that the problem can be avoided in the future?

I got the impression he was asking for personal accounts....perhaps the mods did too and were concerned about those then being criticised?

Add-on: I see the impression was shared by at least one other.

Edited July 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

Basically the rich get richer and poor get poorer... times infinity.

That is just so leftish of you.

But it is not the same thing at all. The longer I stay active in Church, the more I have diligently attended to the callings I have been given, the greater my committment has been to keeping the commandments, and the more I have studied the scriptures, and prayed diligenty for knowledge and understanding, the more I have been given, vis-a-vis the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. I have found that Alma 12:9 is quite literally true, and I have observed others taking advantage of that promise also.

On the other hand, I have children who have done the opposite. They don't attend Church, and haven't for years, if they still have the scriptures which we have given them they never open them, and prayer is a mystery to them. As a result, they know significantly less about the Gospel and Christ than they did when were growing up and if anything they know less and less each year. In the end, they will know virtually nothing about it, as indicated in Alma 12:11

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser aportion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Now you've cleverly, you think, brought this standard polticial left-leaning conspiracy-against-the-poor proverb into the argument, but the "poor" in this case are those who have chosen poverty, revel in it, and want more of it. You can't throw this in the face of the "rich" -- the "rich" in this case want to share all that they have with the "poor", but it is the "poor" who spit in the face of the "rich" and want nothing to do with it.

[oats]

It's not a phrase I use regularly.

Typically I reserve my conversations for people who I know or sense are open. People who like to explore, people who are not so narrow minded that everything becomes literal or so weak minded that they cannot absorb or consider context. With open people I feel that such concrete and definitive statements are often a hindrance to conversation that enlightens and broadens understanding.

I may say 'I know the church is true' when I quickly want to establish that I believe the LDS church is the epicentre of God's work on earth, the organization that man can chose to affiliate with that will place them most directly under the authority and direction of Christ. That it will lead a man to see the face of God with greater definition, context and vision than elsewhere. That the body of the church is God's most pointed tool to plant the most needed seeds in the hearts of man. As a whole its job is to create a core of people aligned enough with God's will to direct, flavour and influence human patterns of life sufficiently to fit God's plan. If I do say that 'I know the church is true' then that nearly says what I mean.

But since I recognize the necessary changing nature of understanding then by the time I wakeup I may have a new way to explain what I mean by that particular phrase. Language, models and the mind are so flakey

I say "believe" instead of "know" because, well, I feel more comfortable designating my position as one of progressive learning rather than a completed journey which culminates in "knowledge." Frankly, I don't think most Latter-day Saints are referring to a completed journey, either.

I love this attitude and I look forward to it pervading the tone of dialogue in our church meetings and the attitudes we carry everywhere, It is humbling and opens minds and hearts to direction, understanding and revelation.

Edited July 7, 2013 by oats

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I believe it was re-established by a Prophet of God, that is past tense, this can never change.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Five Solas]

Reading me rightly? Everyone on this board knows where I stand on these issues including you, from previous discussions.

And yet you have made no points whatsoever against Peterson's position, but simply pointing fingers and saying "He is a Nietschean!"

Witch trials are a thing of the past

If we've previously discussed your fondness for Nietzsche, mfbukowski, I have no recollection. As for "witch trials"--I have noticed from previous discussion you're prone to, as Colin Powell famously put it, "getting the vapors."

It merits its own thread, but there's a significant subset of the LDS population who are fans of the German. It's not just you, Peterson, and a former girlfriend of mine (back when I was LDS). His name comes up regularly w/ the Sunstone crowd. Can't think of a more popular philosopher off hand. I'll confess his name makes my eyes roll--for what typically comes next is a lot of pretentiousness followed by condescension (as you yourself so artfully demonstrated in a preceding post).

--Erik

PS. I did appreciate your inquiry regarding getting my poor thread moved back to its original forum. I’m much too abrasive to be in anyone’s “social hall.”

;0)

Edited July 7, 2013 by Five Solas

[Five Solas]

I love this attitude and I look forward to it pervading the tone of dialogue in our church meetings and the attitudes we carry everywhere, It is humbling and opens minds and hearts to direction, understanding and revelation.

smac97, trendsetter. you read it here first

:0)

--Erik

[Tacenda]

It's not a phrase I use regularly.

Typically I reserve my conversations for people who I know or sense are open. People who like to explore, people who are not so narrow minded that everything becomes literal or so weak minded that they cannot absorb or consider context. With open people I feel that such concrete and definitive statements are often a hindrance to conversation that enlightens and broadens understanding.

I may say 'I know the church is true' when I quickly want to establish that I believe the LDS church is the epicentre of God's work on earth, the organization that man can chose to affiliate with that will place them most directly under the authority and direction of Christ. That it will lead a man to see the face of God with greater definition, context and vision than elsewhere. That the body of the church is God's most pointed tool to plant the most needed seeds in the hearts of man. As a whole its job is to create a core of people aligned enough with God's will to direct, flavour and influence human patterns of life sufficiently to fit God's plan. If I do say that 'I know the church is true' then that nearly says what I mean.

But since I recognize the necessary changing nature of understanding then by the time I wakeup I may have a new way to explain what I mean by that particular phrase. Language, models and the mind are so flakey

I love this attitude and I look forward to it pervading the tone of dialogue in our church meetings and the attitudes we carry everywhere, It is humbling and opens minds and hearts to direction, understanding and revelation.

In my wards F&T meeting today, several made it a point to say they "knew" the church was true. In fact an older gentlemen made the point that he use to say "believe" but now at his age and with life experiences he now says he "knows" the church is true. Interesting take on it.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[Nemesis]

This thread is becoming personal. We do not allow personal threads. Get back to the topic.

Nemesis