Undocumented Members

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I got the impression that by saying to let the consequence follow Manol meant do what is right with the Lord and for the person and let the consequence follow on the doer not do what is right with the technical commandments and let the consequence follow on the receiver.  Maybe I read that wrong?

Knowing manol from his posting here, my guess is he takes helping others seriously and my concerns don’t apply to the way he approaches “doing what’s right”.  He has never appeared to me to operate much on autopilot, but examines and evaluates his life in depth and over time.  I wasn’t critiquing him by responding, but explaining the nuances and motivations of my own position and I should have been more clear about that.

This topic is just one that drives me to be precise on what I think because of difficulties in the past and a few people I have met in the past that were very well intentioned, but kind of disasters to the people around them….not that they are reading the board, but all of you become stand-ins on occasion when I would love to have another chance to try and communicate with someone to see if maybe this time it would make sense to them.

Edited January 31 by Calm

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Knowing manol from his posting here, my guess is he takes helping others seriously and my concerns don’t apply to the way he approaches “doing what’s right”.  He has never appeared to me to operate much on autopilot, but examines and evaluates his life in depth and over time.  I wasn’t critiquing him by responding, but explaining the nuances and motivations of my own position and I should have been more clear about that.

This topic is just one that drives me to be precise on what I think because of difficulties in the past and a few people I have met in the past that were very well intentioned, but kind of disasters to the people around them….not that they are reading the board, but all of you become stand-ins on occasion when I would love to have another chance to try and communicate with them to see if maybe this time it would make sense to them.

I understand. You would have loved, as I did, our interview yesterday with a woman who took an asylum seeker into her home. She talked so strongly about asking the person what they needed. Connecting with them so that you really know. That they are not a project, but someone who you can connect with on a deeper level and bring joy and friendship to you too.  

[Buckeye]

Good to see you JKW. Short answer, no I would not report anyone who is undocumented, anymore than I would report someone who jaywalked to get to work on time so they could feed their children.

Longer answer, my teenage self might have. I was very much a letter of the law kid. Then I got called to serve Spanish speaking in California. Changed my life and opened my eyes. 
One of my favorite experiences was teaching a man who suddenly disappeared. We assumed he was deported, which happened occasionally. Two months later he called us, confirmed he had been deported and had made the arduous journey back just to finish the lessons with my companion and me. He only worked in the states during each summer and normally would haven’t have made the effort, and he knew there were missionaries in Mexico who he could learn from, but he’d felt the spirit witness during our teaching and wanted to be baptized by us. I’ve rarely felt so loved and honored.

As a contrast to the horrors in our country right now, may I offer the hope of a better country - Spain. My daughter has been a missionary there for several months. Hers is very much an immigrant mission, even more than mine. She’s taught and baptized people from Central America, South America (including Brazil), Africa, and even native Spaniards. She’s had more success so far than I ever did in the states, and I had quite a lot. 

This week Spain passed a mass amnesty law. I haven’t studied it in detail but it’s possible my daughter could even qualify for citizenship 😀. I’m so excited to talk with her this next p-day. The law will be a literally life-changing blessing to her friends and ward. There’s that old proverb - when the Lord closes a door somewhere he opens a window. This week I saw that. 

https://www.npr.org/2026/01/28/g-s1-107636/spain-legal-status-immigrants

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

Good to see you JKW. Short answer, no I would not report anyone who is undocumented, anymore than I would report someone who jaywalked to get to work on time so they could feed their children.

Longer answer, my teenage self might have. I was very much a letter of the law kid. Then I got called to serve Spanish speaking in California. Changed my life and opened my eyes. 
One of my favorite experiences was teaching a man who suddenly disappeared. We assumed he was deported, which happened occasionally. Two months later he called us, confirmed he had been deported and had made the arduous journey back just to finish the lessons with my companion and me. He only worked in the states during each summer and normally would haven’t have made the effort, and he knew there were missionaries in Mexico who he could learn from, but he’d felt the spirit witness during our teaching and wanted to be baptized by us. I’ve rarely felt so loved and honored.

As a contrast to the horrors in our country right now, may I offer the hope of a better country - Spain. My daughter has been a missionary there for several months. Hers is very much an immigrant mission, even more than mine. She’s taught and baptized people from Central America, South America (including Brazil), Africa, and even native Spaniards. She’s had more success so far than I ever did in the states, and I had quite a lot. 

This week Spain passed a mass amnesty law. I haven’t studied it in detail but it’s possible my daughter could even qualify for citizenship 😀. I’m so excited to talk with her this next p-day. The law will be a literally life-changing blessing to her friends and ward. There’s that old proverb - when the Lord closes a door somewhere he opens a window. This week I saw that. 

https://www.npr.org/2026/01/28/g-s1-107636/spain-legal-status-immigrants

I've heard Spain is spectacular for a place to visit and live. Thanks for your comments here. I think a lot of people are abandoning living in the US. And tourists are afraid of coming here. And if your skin is brown, it's scary too. You could be legal and still kidnapped to who knows where. 

I would never report someone for this reason. They aren't taking care of the deported and many have died in concentration camps, some have called them.

[Tacenda]

EDIT: It took a down vote for me to take a look at what I posted below. I'm thinking I may deserve the down vote. I posted without much thought and care, only because of what I'm seeing in the country with ICE currently. I really don't think the majority of people treat immigrants badly, the US or America has always been more a melting pot. I read Instagram as the immigrants that were granted amnesty were coming from the US. I'm notorious sometimes for posting w/o a lot of research. So I apologize for this.

 

 

Instagram on how Spain has made 500,000 undocumented immigrants legal in that country. I say, lucky them...the country and the immigrants. They were treated inhumanely in America. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUIFZIqDICI/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Edited February 6 by Tacenda

[rpn]

In such congregations people don't discuss it.   But sometimes people provide food or run errands for those who can't get out and about, and those with requisite skills help people get powers of attorney and other affairs in order and food and alternative child care and maybe even funds to return them to their country of origin if that is inevitable.   What would Jesus do is not always really clear and it can take a lot of prayer and consideration in deciding one's obligations to God and their fellow men.

[Nofear]

The principles in these two talks inform almost all I as a private citizen need to know about immigration.

Are We Not All Beggars? by Elder Holland
Refuge from the Storm by Elder Kearon

Edited January 31 by Nofear

[manol]

@Kenngo1969 points out a distinction that imo is highly relevant:

On 1/29/2026 at 2:25 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

immigrating illegally and overstaying a visa are mala prohibita violations, not mala in se violations.

For those who Latinam non loquuntur:

"mala prohibita" = "acts that are prohibited by law and not because they are evil"; and

"mala in se" = "acts that are inherently evil regardless of whether they are prohibited by law."

@Calm, I understand your cautious approach towards good intentions which do more harm than good.  Those "good intentions which do more harm than good" could either be turning someone in, or not turning someone in.  Imo whether what the person did is evil by its very nature, or wrong because it is prohibited by law and not because it is inherently evil, makes a difference.

*  *  *  *

It seems to me that a common denominator on both sides of this issue, and on both sides of many issues, is fear.  "We" claim valid reasons to fear "them".  And/or, we don't mind demonizing them to lend validity to our fear-based attitudes (and choices and actions).  I must admit that I participate in this right alongside those I agree with, although it is much easier for me to point out the fear-based attitudes of those I disagree with.

Is there a state of being or level of being at which fear simply does not exist?  Maybe so.  It has been said that "perfect love casts out fear".  I am definitely not there yet, but I think it's worth aspiring to, as an experiment if nothing else. 

Edited January 31 by manol

[Rain]

2 hours ago, manol said:

@Kenngo1969 points out a distinction that imo is highly relevant:

For those who Latinam non loquuntur:

"mala prohibita" = "acts that are prohibited by law and not because they are evil"; and

"mala in se" = "acts that are inherently evil regardless of whether they are prohibited by law."

@Calm, I understand your cautious approach towards good intentions which do more harm than good.  Those "good intentions which do more harm than good" could either be turning someone in, or not turning someone in.  Imo whether what the person did is evil by its very nature, or wrong because it is prohibited by law and not because it is inherently evil, makes a difference.

*  *  *  *

It seems to me that a common denominator on both sides of this issue, and on both sides of many issues, is fear.  "We" claim valid reasons to fear "them".  And/or, we don't mind demonizing them to lend validity to our fear-based attitudes (and choices and actions).  I must admit that I participate in this right alongside those I agree with, although it is much easier for me to point out the fear-based attitudes of those I disagree with.

Is there a state of being or level of being at which fear simply does not exist?  Maybe so.  It has been said that "perfect love casts out fear".  I am definitely not there yet, but I think it's worth aspiring to, as an experiment if nothing else. 

We are on the same wavelength today! I was just going through all these things plus other political issues and was thinking how much of them were fear based and instead of recognizing that we let the fear make us enemies.

[bsjkki]

I would not report the immigration status of a ward member. It does put Branch Presidents in some morally ambiguous situations at times. If you know a congregant is in the country illegally, buying and working under forged documents…they still say they are honest in their dealings. You are told to just give the recommend. This is the counsel. But, it is up to the congregant to answer the questions. What if it wasn’t immigration related law breaking. Would the advice be the same? Infidelity? Child abuse? 
 

Under Obama a ward member and her 15 year old were arrested by ICE. The dad went into hiding. The kids ended up with us until a relative came. 
 

They were in jail for months. 
 

Feed and clothe and give aide but also don’t step into breaking the law yourself. It’s also okay to do all those things but not agree with open border policies. 
 

 

Edited February 1 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

What if it wasn’t immigration related law breaking. Would the advice be the same? Infidelity? Child abuse? 
 

I think the advice for civil violations is likely different than for criminal violations.  

[bsjkki]

Just now, bluebell said:

I think the advice for civil violations is likely different than for criminal violations.  

Those are criminal violations. 

[bluebell]

Just now, bsjkki said:

Those are criminal violations. 

I meant that being in the country illegally is a civil violation, not a criminal one. 

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Those are criminal violations. 

Infidelity is a misdemeanor, I believe, in a small number of states, probably rarely if ever enforced.  If it’s not going to be enforced, why would one report it?  Tell the partner; in most cases, imo.  Tell the cops?  Why?  Will they even take a report? (Just curious about why you used that as an example)

Just checked, it is still on the books as a felony in Wisconsin and Michigan.  Got to wonder why no one has challenged it yet (just called it out as if I understand correctly someone would have to be charged first to take it to court).

https://verdict.justia.com/2024/12/05/the-end-of-the-affair-adultery-in-modern-law

 

Edited February 1 by Calm

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Infidelity is a misdemeanor, I believe, in a small number of states, probably rarely if ever enforced.  If it’s not going to be enforced, why would one report it?  Tell the partner; in most cases, imo.  Tell the cops?  Why?  Will they even take a report? (Just curious about why you used that as an example)

Just checked, it is still on the books as a felony in Wisconsin and Michigan.  Got to wonder why no one has challenged it yet (just called it out as if I understand correctly someone would have to be charged first to take it to court).

https://verdict.justia.com/2024/12/05/the-end-of-the-affair-adultery-in-modern-law

 

It was more an example of what Bishop or Branch President should do if they know they are being lied to in a temple recommend interview. What do they ignore if people lie to them. 
 

Entering the country illegally is criminal. Unlawful presence is civil/deportable. Stolen or forged work documents is criminal. 

[MustardSeed]

It has never occurred to me to report in or out of church.  I can’t imagine doing such a thing.  I can only think of maybe one person in my world who might. 😕 

[Durangout]

On 1/29/2026 at 1:23 PM, The Nehor said:

Reporting them at this time could literally get them killed so absolutely not. It could also get them thrown into a poorly built and maintained detention camp for months with little or no due process.

Even if they do not die reporting them would be cruel.

LOL

[Durangout]

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?  Of course you would.  This is NO different.

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.  Why?  BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.  Why do you all?  

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, Durangout said:

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?  Of course you would.  This is NO different.

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.  Why?  BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.  Why do you all?  

I don’t think this is true. If it’s a rule it is frequently broken. I don’t think it should be a rule either. I know many in the US illegally who have been baptized. 

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Durangout said:

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US

CFR please.

[sunstoned]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR please.

I would appreciate a reference for this claim as well, since my own first‑hand experience suggests otherwise.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

58 minutes ago, Durangout said:

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?  Of course you would.  This is NO different.

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.  Why?  BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.  Why do you all?  

lol. I had an undocumented mission companion whose undocumented dad was bishop. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

LOL

Laughing at people in extended detention in inhumane conditions isn’t kind and is very distasteful.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?

Probably not.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

 Of course you would.  

Ummmmm……..what?

You sound like a narc.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

This is NO different.

It is very different.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.

Wrong. False. Incorrect.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

 Why?

“Why are you beating your spouse?” is hopefully analogous to this question.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

 BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.

*Looks at early church history*

Really? Really?

The Twelfth Article of Faith was never intended as a generalized command to obey all secular laws always. The writer of it deliberately broke secular laws. It was also PR to say that we aren’t seeking to defy laws generally like some of our enemy’s claim.

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

 Why do you all?  

Because I am not a bootlicker who believes that authority is justified or acting rightly just because it is authority. This kind of abject and complete deference to secular law is what powers authoritarian states. Sometimes the better option is civil disobedience. Sometimes the better option is armed revolt. Sometimes the better option is to smash things and light fires. Sometimes the better option is to strike and/or shut things down to hurt the interests of the wealthy to get their attention. Being unequivocally devoted to the status quo is almost always siding with the oppressors over the oppressed.

I think members of the Church in the US have been supping way too much at the American Evangelical Christian table that generally sides with the powerful over the powerless. I wish we’d cribbed more notes from some Catholics and other Christian groups that push for liberating the captive and pleading the case of the oppressed and fighting for actual social justice.

Edited February 2 by The Nehor

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?  Of course you would.  This is NO different.

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.  Why?  BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.  Why do you all?  

My son served in Tennessee (Spanish speaking) and he said pretty much all of his converts were undocumented.  This was two years ago.

[manol]

6 hours ago, Durangout said:

The Church refuses to baptize illegal aliens in the US.  Why?  BC they don’t approve of lawbreakers or support lawbreaking.  Why do you all?  

Adding to the comments preceding, this:  We shared a building with a Spanish branch and their branch president was undocumented.  He later became a counselor in the stake presidency.

 

6 hours ago, Durangout said:

If you knew of members of your ward that had robbed a local store, would you report them?  Of course you would.  This is NO different.

Actually those are two very different things, and the law makes the distinction.  There is "mala prohibita", and then there is "mala in se". 

Being in the US illegally falls into the category of "mala prohibita", which refers to "acts that are prohibited by law and not because they are evil".

Robbery falls into the category of "mala in se", which refers to "acts that are inherently evil regardless of whether they are prohibited by law."

The one is something that became a crime at the stroke of a pen; and the other is evil by its very nature, whether regardless of what the law says.

Those are two very different categories, and imo not realizing this distinction can result in good people supporting or acquiescing to legislated (or non-legislated, as the case may be) evil.

 

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Twelfth Article of Faith was never intended as a generalized command to obey all secular laws always.

^^^This^^^

Edited February 2 by manol