young men more religious than young women

[Nofear]

An interesting article about how few gen-z men are religiously unaffiliated than gen-z women and that is a first time this result has shown up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/us/young-men-religion-gen-z.html (article is on this survey: https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/)

Explaining why this shift has occurred is certainly multifaceted. Religious affiliated tends to be correlated to lower economic standing (except for LDS where the reverse is true) and young women now on average earn more than young men in urban areas. The loud decrying of toxic masculinity may lead some to feel confused as to what is appropriate masculinity (and them finding an answer in religion). Other issues are probably at play, but the author didn't delve much into exploring any of that instead choosing to spend time on women/clergy and LGBTQ commentary.

What are your thoughts? Why this historically unprecedented shift?

[The Nehor]

It is because of abortion and churches actively campaigning against women’s bodily autonomy. It is not because more men are staying. It is that more women are leaving.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

It is because of abortion and churches actively campaigning against women’s bodily autonomy. It is not because more men are staying. It is that more women are leaving.

More independence and seeing some religions being harmful to females. 

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is because of abortion and churches actively campaigning against women’s bodily autonomy. It is not because more men are staying. It is that more women are leaving.

That may indeed be a factor. But abortion has been an issue for generations and so one would need to explain the variation (which there probably are some decent hypotheses). Nevertheless, seeing this as only a woman issue misses the data which has fewer gen-z men identifying as unaffiliated. It also cynically discounts men as caring about women and their issues. But, your comment and the casual dismissal of what actually may be issues that are directly germane to men may be emblematic of one of the causes that are leading more young men to find purpose outside a cynical society that discards them and their issues as irrelevant. I doubt it'd be a full explanation though.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

26 minutes ago, Nofear said:

That may indeed be a factor. But abortion has been an issue for generations and so one would need to explain the variation (which there probably are some decent hypotheses). Nevertheless, seeing this as only a woman issue misses the data which has fewer gen-z men identifying as unaffiliated. It also cynically discounts men as caring about women and their issues. But, your comment and the casual dismissal of what actually may be issues that are directly germane to men may be emblematic of one of the causes that are leading more young men to find purpose outside a cynical society that discards them and their issues as irrelevant. I doubt it'd be a full explanation though.

How does that chart compare to times past? Does it take a few years to disaffiliate after entering adulthood? Or is the drop something new?

[Nofear]

There are trendlines and studies in religious engagement that track time. Engagement by both genders was higher in the past, but always women were higher than men in religious engagement.

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Nofear said:

An interesting article about how few gen-z men are religiously unaffiliated than gen-z women and that is a first time this result has shown up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/us/young-men-religion-gen-z.html (article is on this survey: https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/)

Explaining why this shift has occurred is certainly multifaceted. Religious affiliated tends to be correlated to lower economic standing (except for LDS where the reverse is true) and young women now on average earn more than young men in urban areas. The loud decrying of toxic masculinity may lead some to feel confused as to what is appropriate masculinity (and them finding an answer in religion). Other issues are probably at play, but the author didn't delve much into exploring any of that instead choosing to spend time on women/clergy and LGBTQ commentary.

What are your thoughts? Why this historically unprecedented shift?

Neylan McBaine gave a very good update from her book, Women in the Church, written 10 years ago.  I think she explains what is happening very well, I hope a transcript is forthcoming.  I also think we will continue to have even higher defections of women under the current conditions.  "Any man sitting next to a woman at church this Sunday will have ecclesiastical authority over her." (paraphrase). The difference in involvement and respect is becoming too much of a contrast when women are not expected to defer to males, merely because they are male, in their every day lives. She said when it comes to the governance of the church "doing less, being less, contributing less is considered admirable." It's crazymaking. She quotes a mother saying the inequity is seen by her children as almost comical. She doesn't know what to tell them. 

I'm very weary of waiting. I totally understand those that give up. It is especially hard on single women. It would be different if there was a concerted effort to include, even without ordination of priesthood, but I don't see it. I do see some gains being taken away, however. 

 

 

 

[Malc]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

That may indeed be a factor. But abortion has been an issue for generations and so one would need to explain the variation (which there probably are some decent hypotheses).

...

Perhaps some kind of social awakening has taken/is taking place.

Women are (rightly, I believe) taking more control over their lives than before, as societal changes make it possible for them to do so.

Also (speaking for myself) men may be becoming more aware of their past contributions to keeping women "down".

Since we are not allowed to discuss politics, I won't comment on happenings in the US political environment right now; nor will I suggest that it has been a long time coming.

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

More independence and seeing some religions being harmful to females. 

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

[MustardSeed]

36 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

I’m not even pro life and I can smell your hatred for women. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

46 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

Yeah it’s really hard to say why women are fleeing religion filled with men like you. 🤔🧐

[Malc]

43 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

Did I miss something here? Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

Can you tell me, explicitly, who you believe is/was "violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having [their] own innocent unborn child slaughtered because [they] don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of [their] own reckless actions."

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Nofear said:

That may indeed be a factor. But abortion has been an issue for generations and so one would need to explain the variation (which there probably are some decent hypotheses). Nevertheless, seeing this as only a woman issue misses the data which has fewer gen-z men identifying as unaffiliated. It also cynically discounts men as caring about women and their issues. But, your comment and the casual dismissal of what actually may be issues that are directly germane to men may be emblematic of one of the causes that are leading more young men to find purpose outside a cynical society that discards them and their issues as irrelevant. I doubt it'd be a full explanation though.

It actually hasn’t been an issue for generations. Before the 70s and 80s other than Catholics most Christian faiths were amibivalent or undecided on the issue. Some were pro-choice. Then the government started cracking down on racially segregated religious schools and threatening their tax-exempt status. Being pro-segregation turned out to be a poor rallying cry to secure funding. They tried the government overreach into religious practice card and that didn’t work. Then they tried abortion. That caught on. Suddenly a bunch of religious leaders became rabidly against abortion almost overnight. The SBC flip-flopped to a ridiculous extent.

The thing is that abortion was a great bogeyman. You could fundraise off it, make token laws restricting it, and use the collected money for whatever political ends you wanted. Then in 2022 the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and flipped the table. Suddenly the fundraising standard was gone and real women were being hurt. Then laws cracked down on abortion and the laws were written by idiots so they endangered the lives of pregnant women who didn’t even want an elective abortion but just had dangerous or nonviable pregnancies. Women are literally dying because of these ill-conceived laws while those who wrote and voted for them throw up their hands and claim they didn’t forsee these kinds of things. They should have. Medical groups and women’s health groups were screaming warnings the whole time but were ignored. After all those women were clearly just hysterical.

They were a dog chasing a car that caught the car and now have no idea what they are doing. That is what has changed. It is not a theoretical threat to women’s health anymore. It is real. Real people are suffering and some are dying. Churches are reaping what they have sown.

Or, to use a more modern turn of phrase: “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

Edited September 24, 2024 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, Malc said:

Did I miss something here? Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

Can you tell me, explicitly, who you believe is/was "violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having [their] own innocent unborn child slaughtered because [they] don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of [their] own reckless actions."

All those whores having promiscuous sex and then rushing to the abortion doctor cackling with glee to get abortions. You know, the fever dreams of crazy misogynists who have to make sure women are punished for their evil acts!

Edited September 24, 2024 by The Nehor

[carbon dioxide]

Men and women are becoming more polarized just like our politics are.   There has been a sharp increase in the number of women who identify as political liberal.   About 45% of younger women while younger men are remaining stable around 25%.  I think this division will only increase as time goes on.   More women are going to college than men. It is about 60% women now.   Women tend to date men who are at their academic and financial level or above.   We see large numbers of women who are going to middle age single and childless.   These numbers should probably increase over time as well.  Should be interesting to see ho society evolves to over the next 20 years.   Lots of middle aged single men and women and not wanting to do much with each other.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

I don't understand what you're saying, or why you're saying this to me. I merely think that too often religions that read the Bible and believe every word of it, may think women are second class, and subservient to men or that the man is the head of the household. I think women like their independence. Didn't say anything about abortion for crying out loud, or for screaming out loud. What's up with that? Did I say women just want to sleep around and then abort any child that came of that, I don't think so. Not in the slightest way did my comment say that. ETA: I didn't even read the op's link or article. Maybe I should have.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[Dario_M]

More woman are leaving the church then man. Womans are mostely a bit more fickle then men. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[blackstrap]

Sometimes it is valuable to look at the numbers. The following concerns abortions in the US accurate to 2022 or thereabouts, so Roe probably has less effect on the stats. Seems about 900,000 abortions happen each year and fewer than 12 women die from complications from those abortions. There are many questions posed and answered in this PEW data. Some are quite revealing. I found it interesting to see just how much higher the stats were in the 1970s .

What the data says about abortion in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Sometimes it is valuable to look at the numbers. The following concerns abortions in the US accurate to 2022 or thereabouts, so Roe probably has less effect on the stats. Seems about 900,000 abortions happen each year and fewer than 12 women die from complications from those abortions. There are many questions posed and answered in this PEW data. Some are quite revealing. I found it interesting to see just how much higher the stats were in the 1970s .

What the data says about abortion in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

The percentage of those dying from induced abortions skyrocket when you go to underground sources for them as we learned back in the 60s and 70s.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Men and women are becoming more polarized just like our politics are.   There has been a sharp increase in the number of women who identify as political liberal.   About 45% of younger women while younger men are remaining stable around 25%.  I think this division will only increase as time goes on.   More women are going to college than men. It is about 60% women now.   Women tend to date men who are at their academic and financial level or above.   We see large numbers of women who are going to middle age single and childless.   These numbers should probably increase over time as well.  Should be interesting to see ho society evolves to over the next 20 years.   Lots of middle aged single men and women and not wanting to do much with each other.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens when men start having to do as much as women to get and keep a mate (look nice, be nice and be available, do a major amount of housework).

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

More woman are leaving the church then man. Womans are mostely a bit more fickle then men. 

Uhhhhhhhhhh……..no.

I have dated both genders and just…..no.

Edited September 24, 2024 by The Nehor

[Dario_M]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhhhhhhhhh……..no.

I have dated both genders and just…..no.

Oh you're bi sexual. I see. Yeah maybe i was wrong about that last thing i said. But sometimes i feel like men are just a little bit more stable. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But sometimes i feel like men are just a little bit more stable. 

Women have been the ones raising the children. It has in general been the man who leaves in most cultures…in part because women didn’t have ways to be independent, babies required nursing, etc.  Our culture still makes the assumption women are natural caregivers while men have to learn it in my experience.  They are more likely to be expected to leave work for child care even when they would prefer not it. It typically isn’t expected of a father to do the same. In that sense women are generally more stable or set up to be less stable by cultural expectations.

It can also be dangerous for a woman not to have emotions under control in certain settings as that might make her appear more vulnerable and therefore is a target.

Men also tend to be greater risk takers and more violent due to testosterone and culture.

Women do have greater hormonal fluctuations during the month that can lead to short term emotional mood changes, but outside that and pregnancy which may change brain structure z(shrink brain size, but increase white matter, which are the connections), I don’t see reasons to assume they are less stable.  Plus dealing with one’s internal state fluctuating significantly every month gives one lots of practice in controlling emotions.

Some cultures see women as more emotional even when they are acting identical to men. Studies of judging writing for example…if a man’s name is on it, it is seen as logical, if a woman’s name more emotional. So one needs to be careful to be sure it isn’t one’s own bias that is driving that perception rather than actual interaction with women.  Women’s vocabulary is often expected to be more emotional, we are also more verbal and more expressive in general.  This can give the impression someone is more emotional, but just because someone isn’t saying anything doesn’t mean they are emotionally stable. 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Women have been the ones raising the children. It has in general been the man who leaves in most cultures…

 I don't think that's true. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

in part because women didn’t have ways to be independent, babies required nursing, etc.

You can ask your husband to help rasing the kids. Or you can ask for a nanny or something like that. The posibility's are there. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 Our culture still makes the assumption women are natural caregivers while men have to learn it in my experience.  They are more likely to be expected to leave work for child care even when they would prefer not it. It typically isn’t expected of a father to do the same. In that sense women are generally more stable or set up to be less stable by cultural expectations.

Calm it's fine if you believe in that it's all good. I don't really wanna argue. 

I just feel like man are more stable because that's what i see al around me. Look at me boyfriend for example. He's the most loyal person you can come across. He would never cheat on me. And he is stable as a rock. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It can also be dangerous for a woman not to have emotions under control in certain settings as that might make her appear more vulnerable and therefore is a target.

That can be true.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Men also tend to be greater risk takers and more violent due to testosterone and culture.

Not my boyfriend. He has been the most reliable sweet innocent not aggressive angel you can ever ask for in a relationship. And his testosterone levels are just perfect in balance. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Women do have greater hormonal fluctuations during the month that can lead to short term emotional mood changes, but outside that and pregnancy which may change brain structure z(shrink brain size, but increase white matter, which are the connections), I don’t see reasons to assume they are less stable.

I was more focust on the stability of the male figure. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 Plus dealing with one’s internal state fluctuating significantly every month gives one lots of practice in controlling emotions.

I don't suffer pms but my emotions are all over the place as well. I didn't said that every man is stable. I'm not. But in general i feel like they are. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Some cultures see women as more emotional even when they are acting identical to men. Studies of judging writing for example…if a man’s name is on it, it is seen as logical, if a woman’s name more emotional. So one needs to be careful to be sure it isn’t one’s own bias that is driving that perception rather than actual interaction with women.  Women’s vocabulary is often expected to be more emotional, we are also more verbal and more expressive in general.  This can give the impression someone is more emotional, but just because someone isn’t saying anything doesn’t mean they are emotionally stable. 

All i can say is that for me males stand for more stability because i'm gay and have spend more time with men then with females because i feel atractive to men. In my life i had more interactions with males in real life. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Oh you're bi sexual. I see. Yeah maybe i was wrong about that last thing i said. But sometimes i feel like men are just a little bit more stable. 

This has not been my experience. There are cultural ways that dictate how instability is expressed but that is a different thing.