young men more religious than young women

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I just saw this TikTok and think it applies nicely. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAD5gkjRcio/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Summary please as I don’t do Tik Tok or instagram and others may not as well

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Fewer Gen-Z men are unaffiliated than Millienial men.

Is this true though? What age breakdown are they using? See below:

 

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Also by gender. What is new in the OP is the change in the male line. It decreased after 2022ish (where the graph below ends) instead of continuing to rise. That surprised social scientists.
https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/women-are-more-religious-than-men

From this link, the disaffiliation graph for men dips for those newly turned 18 in 2012, 2018, and 2020. This matches your new data. So I guess what is remarkable about the fact that the youngest Gen Z men show less disaffiliation those that a few years older? Doesn't that just show that people leave their faith as they reach their mid 20's instead of just after reaching adulthood? The same as shown in 2012?

Edited September 24, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Tacenda]

Just now, Calm said:

Summary please as I don’t do Tik Tok and others may not as well

I think it's Instagram, not a Tik Tok but I get them mixed up. But I will try to describe it if you don't want to watch. 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

It would be interesting to know which religions/churches women are leaving and which are retaining/gaining women.

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's Instagram, not a Tik Tok but I get them mixed up. But I will try to describe it if you don't want to watch. 

 

@Calm sorry I'm so bad at reading, you said you don't do Instagram either, so here goes. 

It shows the same guy and he's got a wig on playing the wife. And then it cuts to him w/o the disguise as the husband.

He said: "Okay, I'm going hunting". 

She said: "How long are you going out?" 

He said: "Depends on the deer, honestly I just lose track of time out there, it's so quiet and peaceful up in that tree stand all alone"

She said: "That sounds awesome, you sold me, I think I want to go deer hunting". 

He said: "You don't hunt"

She said: "It can't be that hard, I mean half the time you don't come back with anything anyway"

He said: "You want me to take you hunting?"

She said: "No, I want to go by myself, you can take Saturday and I can go Sunday"

He said: "What about the kids?"

She said: "What about them?"

He said: "So you want me to watch the kids?"

She said: "Well, yeah I watch the kids every time you want to hunt so I figured it wouldn't be a problem, we would just take turns right?"

He said: "How long are you going to be gone?"

She said: "Oh I don't know, it depends on the deer right?"

He said: "I'm just confused"

She said: "You're just confused that I would want peace and quiet and be alone in nature?"

He said: "Don't you think it would be better if you had a hobby like gardening?"

She said: "Why?"

He said: "I just thought that might be a lot easier on the family"

She said: "Oh, so then I can be here if anyone needs me, it's like killing two birds with one stone so I can tend to everyone's needs and I enjoy my hobby at the same time?"

He said: "Exactly"

She said: "That's a tough one. Hmm, nah I think I'll take the six hour break alone"

 

 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[Nofear]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

Looks like the Netherlands is ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to men being involved in taking care of the children.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/08/29/dutch-fathers-play-a-big-role-in-raising-the-happies-kids-in-the-world.html

While I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion on the Gender Equality Paradox, I imagine the result will surprise many.

 

15 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is this true though? What age breakdown are they using? See below:

 

From this link, the disaffiliation graph for men dips for those newly turned 18 in 2012, 2018, and 2020. This matches your new data. So I guess what is remarkable about the fact that the youngest Gen Z men show less disaffiliation those that a few years older? Doesn't that just show that people leave their faith as they reach their mid 20's instead of just after reaching adulthood? The same as shown in 2012?

The data doesn't track individuals over time. It tracks age groups. It doesn't speak to the question of "Doesn't that just show that people leave their faith as they reach their mid 20's instead of just after reaching adulthood?". Might be true. Might not be. Though, I'm certain that more people stop attending in adulthood than as a minor where parental influence could have a significant impact.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Nofear said:

While I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion on the Gender Equality Paradox, I imagine the result will surprise many.

 

The data doesn't track individuals over time. It tracks age groups. It doesn't speak to the question of "Doesn't that just show that people leave their faith as they reach their mid 20's instead of just after reaching adulthood?". Might be true. Might not be. Though, I'm certain that more people stop attending in adulthood than as a minor where parental influence could have a significant impact.

I’m just questioning what it is that you see as new in the men’s data. As shown by your links, young adult men (18-25) have almost always affiliated with religion in higher numbers than those a few years older. So what is it about the data in regards to men (not women) that you see as remarkable. 

[Nofear]

25 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It would be interesting to know which religions/churches women are leaving and which are retaining/gaining women.

The Church is seeing the lowest rate of decline. I quite doubt that it is because men are attending more and women attending less, at least by any significant margin.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/church-attendance-declined-religious-groups.aspx

[Tacenda]

I think the internet has a big effect on the lower attendance. People can look up anything they want nowadays about their religion. The internet affected me in my disillusionment about the church. Had I never had a pop up come up about JS's polygamy, I probably wouldn't be here the way I am. I'd be happily attending and serving, I think, in the church.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[Nofear]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m just questioning what it is that you see as new in the men’s data. As shown by your links, young adult men (18-25) have almost always affiliated with religion in higher numbers than those a few years older. So what is it about the data in regards to men (not women) that you see as remarkable. 

This might answer some of your questions. Most religious disaffiliation occurs in adolescence as opposed to later.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/religious-affiliation-among-american-adolescents/

But if I understand what you are saying, the claim is the possibility that if done 10 or 20 years ago on ages 12-27 (would is now Gen-Z, but not back then), that age group would show less disaffiliation then the age bracket above the age group and therefore, for men, nothing is really different and that the real news is that more women are disaffiliating than men as they age. You are welcome to track down that data and see if the hypothesis is accurate.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, Nofear said:

This might answer some of your questions. Most religious disaffiliation occurs in adolescence as opposed to later.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/religious-affiliation-among-american-adolescents/

But if I understand what you are saying, the claim is the possibility that if done 10 or 20 years ago on ages 12-27 (would is now Gen-Z, but not back then), that age group would show less disaffiliation then the age bracket above the age group and therefore, for men, nothing is really different and that the real news is that more women are disaffiliating than men as they age. You are welcome to track down that data and see if the hypothesis is accurate.

 

Respectfully, you’re the one claiming something new is happening. And not providing any evidence to support your assertion. The graphs from your link contradict your assertion. 

In 2012 for example your graphs show that young adults affiliated in higher numbers than those in their late 20’s among men. Just like today! There is nothing special going on with the men. It’s the women that are showing a marked change. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

51 minutes ago, Nofear said:

The Church is seeing the lowest rate of decline. I quite doubt that it is because men are attending more and women attending less, at least by any significant margin.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/church-attendance-declined-religious-groups.aspx

This shows no such thing. It just shows that once members stop attending your church they are much more likely to stop identifying as members of your church. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just to clarify.

What you're saying is that the reason young women are leaving churches is because they teach that maybe it's not such a great idea to kill babies in the womb- taking away the " bodily autonomy" of an innocent child?

Again, just for clarification.

YES!

FEAST ON THEIR BODIES!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's Instagram, not a Tik Tok but I get them mixed up. But I will try to describe it if you don't want to watch. 

 

I tried and it won’t let me unless I jump through hoops and my attention doesn’t last that long.   

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Just a thought based on my observations - do you think that social media might contribute?  I notice on platforms directed at young people especially have a lot of content directed at women that show a 'glamorous' type of life where outfits that are not garment friendly, drinking and being intimate with non-married partners are the norm.  I don't see as many posts that focus on that kind of thing directed at men - their posts seem to be just about gadgets, sports, news etc.  Maybe I just haven't pushed the algorithm hard enough to see that kind of male content, but without even trying, I see it all over IG and TT for women.  

Now I am not saying that those people posting those things are necessarily bad - but that their behavior, dress, and language are not always in alignment with Church standards, and if a woman desires to follow those trends, in the church would not be a comfy place to do so.  

But sexual promiscuity is down and so is purchasing power across most demographics making it harder to buy all this avocado toast and sleeveless garments.

3 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I have also seen a lot of things in my kids social circles that seem to put down men in general (even while not necessarily intending to).  Things like 'toxic masculinity', 'choose the bear', etc, might have repercussions and leave men not feeling valued and searching for affirmation and value elsewhere. Just a thought?

Maybe if we dealt with the toxic masculinity problem this wouldn’t be a big problem. Also a general social expectation that men in romantic relationships be equal partners in terms of labor put in would probably help.

Seriously, straight dating culture and relationships are pretty messed up.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I tried and it won’t let me unless I jump through hoops and my attention doesn’t last that long.   

I listened to the whole thing intermittently and put it all down in writing a few posts up.  It also had a note at the end that it wasn't meant to bash men. And I was quit impressed this guy went to all the trouble acting it out and empathizing with moms out there.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

@Calm sorry I'm so bad at reading, you said you don't do Instagram either, so here goes. 

It shows the same guy and he's got a wig on playing the wife. And then it cuts to him w/o the disguise as the husband.

He said: "Okay, I'm going hunting". 

She said: "How long are you going out?" 

He said: "Depends on the deer, honestly I just lose track of time out there, it's so quiet and peaceful up in that tree stand all alone"

She said: "That sounds awesome, you sold me, I think I want to go deer hunting". 

He said: "You don't hunt"

She said: "It can't be that hard, I mean half the time you don't come back with anything anyway"

He said: "You want me to take you hunting?"

She said: "No, I want to go by myself, you can take Saturday and I can go Sunday"

He said: "What about the kids?"

She said: "What about them?"

He said: "So you want me to watch the kids?"

She said: "Well, yeah I watch the kids every time you want to hunt so I figured it wouldn't be a problem, we would just take turns right?"

He said: "How long are you going to be gone?"

She said: "Oh I don't know, it depends on the deer right?"

He said: "I'm just confused"

She said: "You're just confused that I would want peace and quiet and be alone in nature?"

He said: "Don't you think it would be better if you had a hobby like gardening?"

She said: "Why?"

He said: "I just thought that might be a lot easier on the family"

She said: "Oh, so then I can be here if anyone needs me, it's like killing two birds with one stone so I can tend to everyone's needs and I enjoy my hobby at the same time?"

He said: "Exactly"

She said: "That's a tough one. Hmm, nah I think I'll take the six hour break alone"

That is a pretty fair breakdown.

Also the emotional labor disparity is huge across the gender divide.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I listened to the whole thing intermittently and put it all down in writing a few posts up.  It also had a note at the end that it wasn't meant to bash men. And I was quit impressed this guy went to all the trouble acting it out and empathizing with moms out there.

I saw it on FB.  I was amused.

Are men actually like that?  Haven’t had too many opportunities for extended breaks, but neither did my husband take many.  And there was no problem with expecting him to help except the house wasn’t always as clean….though once he did a better job of it than I usually did.

My mom didn’t have friends to go off with much, but Dad never fussed when she went off to refresh herself for health reasons.

I had heard about issues with Boy’s nights out vs Girls’ nights out, but never encountered that and it hasn’t come up in discussions with other women that I can remember.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[Nofear]

17 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This shows no such thing. It just shows that once members stop attending your church they are much more likely to stop identifying as members of your church. 

The data does indeed show that members who identify has LDS continue to attend church service. The rate of decline in attendance among those who identify as LDS is the least (though Muslims are attending at a positive rate of change).
Now, one could make the claim as you are now that once one stops identifying as LDS they stop attending, but the data isn't tracking that. That is an extrapolation on your part. It's almost certainly true, but still not part of the data.

18 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Respectfully, you’re the one claiming something new is happening. And not providing any evidence to support your assertion. The graphs from your link contradict your assertion. 

In 2012 for example your graphs show that young adults affiliated in higher numbers than those in their late 20’s among men. Just like today! There is nothing special going on with the men. It’s the women that are showing a marked change. 

I suppose the only safe thing to say is that more young women are choosing to identify as unaffiliated and that the rate of change in disaffiliation among young me, whether positive or negative, is not quantitatively discernible at the time. The possibilities include, 1) the female demographic made all the change and the men remain unchanged, 2) the female demographic changed but so did the men, or 3) the female demographic was unchanged and the men made all the difference. 1) and 3) don't seem likely to me, hence my advocacy of that interpretation of the data. 1) would cynically assume the gen-z men have no empathy or consideration for the issues that are causing the young women to disaffiliate. 3) doesn't follow the historical changes.

[Maestrophil]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But sexual promiscuity is down and so is purchasing power across most demographics making it harder to buy all this avocado toast and sleeveless garments.

Ha!  That avocado toast comment is on point.  🙂. I am not really talking about promiscuity as much as Starbucks, immodest dress, swearing, living 'your truth' and that sort of thing - not really serious problems overall, but not in harmony with a comfortable relationship with the church either.  It would be hard to want to lie that way and still be happy with church culture/doctrines.

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe if we dealt with the toxic masculinity problem this wouldn’t be a big problem. Also a general social expectation that men in romantic relationships be equal partners in terms of labor put in would probably help.

Seriously, straight dating culture and relationships are pretty messed up.

Chicken or the egg problem.  Regardless of weather toxic masculinity is a problem, all men get painted with the same brush, so I am not surprised when young men seek refuge in video games and yes, maybe even (hopefully) faith.  There are plenty of great kind men out there, and that isn't really said along with the toxic masculinity messages - loving many men to feel devalued.  

Separate thread, but how are straight relationships messed up as a whole?  Some are some aren't.  And are Gay relationships a ton better as a whole (in my observation they suffer with many of the same struggles)  - is that what you are insinuating?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

The data does indeed show that members who identify has LDS continue to attend church service. The rate of decline in attendance among those who identify as LDS is the least (though Muslims are attending at a positive rate of change).

Yes. But the question wasn’t about church attendance among those who identify. It was about which denomination retained the most members. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Ha!  That avocado toast comment is on point.  🙂. I am not really talking about promiscuity as much as Starbucks, immodest dress, swearing, living 'your truth' and that sort of thing - not really serious problems overall, but not in harmony with a comfortable relationship with the church either.  It would be hard to want to lie that way and still be happy with church culture/doctrines.

Yeah, but then you just go on that Mormon Swinger show.

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Chicken or the egg problem.  Regardless of weather toxic masculinity is a problem, all men get painted with the same brush, so I am not surprised when young men seek refuge in video games and yes, maybe even (hopefully) faith.  There are plenty of great kind men out there, and that isn't really said along with the toxic masculinity messages - loving many men to feel devalued.  

It is a problem. A big one. Great kind men be fall into the traps of toxic masculinity. The reason it is talked about is to mitigate against it.

We need a model of masculinity that will work. It has changed before and it will change again. Reactionaries love to scream about how it is basically just about hating men but they miss the point deliberately and their propaganda does convince many the whole thing is about hurting men so they succeed. Video game culture is rapidly becoming a toxic cesspool. Sadly some churches aren’t much better. In fact they are worse since they put the veneer of divine approval on that toxicity. I don’t think the church falls into that category speaking generally and not specifically.

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Separate thread, but how are straight relationships messed up as a whole?  Some are some aren't.  And are Gay relationships a ton better as a whole (in my observation they suffer with many of the same struggles)  - is that what you are insinuating?

There is a lot of performative weirdness in hetero relationships I didn’t realize was there until I got away from it and experienced other relationships. Expectations that serve no one and just create burdens. More importantly gendered labor divisions are being preserved that are incredibly imbalanced. When both parents have full-time jobs women still end up doing the bulk of the cleaning and parenting with men considering their contributions in that area to be gifts generously given and not just doing their part.

I have a bisexual friend. She has a child with her husband. She is very frustrated with his unwillingness to pitch in and shoulder about half the effort. When she complains to her straight friends (most of them married with children) she gets told that he is doing more than most men. When she went to a lesbian couple who are also raising children they were horrified at how little her husband is doing.

One advantage of a same gender relationship is you usually can’t fall back on gendered stereotypes about division of labor and you actually have to divide the tasks somehow or they don’t get done. I didn’t realize how much emotional labor I was dumping on my girlfriends until I was dating another guy. Even when you don’t live together this happens.

A lot of women are realizing that they don’t have to put up with that inequality. Men whine about how women won’t jump into the stereotype they want. Women also tend to be happier alone than men are. A lot of the toxic masculinity about women growing old alone and miserable comes from men frustrated that they see that in their future. It is the “I am going to take my ball and go home” threat by saying you will all be miserable when I am not around and you’ll be sorry. The usual response from women to men like this is: “Bye.”

Two men relationships have their own troubles but they tend to manifest in different ways. Same with two women relationships. Same with variants with non-binary people. They aren’t utopias. And boy do bi and pan men and women in particular sometimes romanticize same gender relationships as utopias if they haven’t experienced them.

[TheLastMan]

I feel like things are seriously going off the rails with men, women, relationships, and families in western societies.

It seems like young men these days have no proper male role models and no guidance these days. No father at home, a school system that would prefer them to be more like girls, dating reduced to apps where the 10-20% "winners" take it all.

Judging by statistics I have seen, we might be nearing a point where half of young men barely have any other experience with women than female teachers and hardcore adult content all the way to age 30.

To some extent I already noticed those changes as a millennial, too. Luckily my 20's have not been dominated by dating apps, as we did not have smartphones yet. But so far I did not manage to find a woman to start a family with either. Thought I had found the one once, but when things got tough, and I worked alternating shifts and emergency support in I.T. to build some wealth, she decided that it's just easier and more fun to fire up an app and find someone else.

I then started working like crazy and managed to build wealth, but now I am stuck with the same broken dating marked as Gen Z. And I, too, started wondering what the meaning of all this might be. I quit my job, because it wasn't satisfying anymore, and I can get by with capital gains alone as long as I keep living modestly. Which I do, because there is no point to get a big, fancy place when I just stare into screens by myself most of the time anyway.

In fact all this led to me just registering here. I am looking into philosophy and religion to see if there might be meaning and community there. If I don't manage to figure this out, soon I will be too old to even start a family. No idea what I am supposed to do then.

So, long story short, I totally get why young men are becoming more conservative and/or more religious (or at least curious like myself).

 

[MustardSeed]

14 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

I feel like things are seriously going off the rails with men, women, relationships, and families in western societies.

It seems like young men these days have no proper male role models and no guidance these days. No father at home, a school system that would prefer them to be more like girls, dating reduced to apps where the 10-20% "winners" take it all.

Judging by statistics I have seen, we might be nearing a point where half of young men barely have any other experience with women than female teachers and hardcore adult content all the way to age 30.

To some extent I already noticed those changes as a millennial, too. Luckily my 20's have not been dominated by dating apps, as we did not have smartphones yet. But so far I did not manage to find a woman to start a family with either. Thought I had found the one once, but when things got tough, and I worked alternating shifts and emergency support in I.T. to build some wealth, she decided that it's just easier and more fun to fire up an app and find someone else.

I then started working like crazy and managed to build wealth, but now I am stuck with the same broken dating marked as Gen Z. And I, too, started wondering what the meaning of all this might be. I quit my job, because it wasn't satisfying anymore, and I can get by with capital gains alone as long as I keep living modestly. Which I do, because there is no point to get a big, fancy place when I just stare into screens by myself most of the time anyway.

In fact all this led to me just registering here. I am looking into philosophy and religion to see if there might be meaning and community there. If I don't manage to figure this out, soon I will be too old to even start a family. No idea what I am supposed to do then.

So, long story short, I totally get why young men are becoming more conservative and/or more religious (or at least curious like myself).

 

Welcome 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

school system that would prefer them to be more like girls

Maybe in the early years in the academic areas since girls have at least in the past been closer to the ‘ideal student’ as in quiet and doing the work, but from what I see the programs that are still the most popular and promoted the most when older are the male sports, not the female in high school.