young men more religious than young women

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

Judging by statistics I have seen, we might be nearing a point where half of young men barely have any other experience with women than female teachers and hardcore adult content all the way to age 30.

What about their mothers, sisters, and fellow female students even if they never have female friends?

Edited October 8, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

Which I do, because there is no point to get a big, fancy place when I just stare into screens by myself most of the time anyway.

I would suggest volunteering if you want to do something meaningful with your life. Or find a hobby you enjoy and join that community even if online. Even better to find one that has local members you can get out with. 
 

But volunteering is the best place to start imo if you want to feel good about yourself and doing something meaningful with your life. Nothing like having a kid’s eyes light up because they are looking forward to showing you how much better they are at reading or they can write their own name. If you feel awkward around people, volunteer at animal shelters. 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

In fact all this led to me just registering here. I am looking into philosophy and religion to see if there might be meaning and community there. If I don't manage to figure this out, soon I will be too old to even start a family. No idea what I am supposed to do then

What is your background in religion?  What are your current specific interests?  

PS:  I ask a lot of questions for additional information including about how someone thinks so looking for nuance, not for argument. For those who don’t know me and that I am constantly asking questions (and then rambling off on epic long posts if a thought is triggered), it may sound like I am challenging or criticizing. I am not. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Calm

[TheLastMan]

39 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Welcome 

Thank you

 

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe in the early years in the academic areas since girls have at least in the past been closer to the ‘ideal student’ as in quiet and doing the work, but from what I see the programs that are still the most popular and promoted the most when older are the male sports, not the female in high school.

Not sure what things are like in the U.S. or here in Europe today, but when I was a teenager me not being a very agreeable person while at the same time being somewhat introverted has led to all sort of issues. I was made very clear that when you don't work as expected as a guy, the system just disposes of you. During that time my parents got divorced, and my father then died in an accident a few years later. Has been quite a ride.

 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

What about their mothers, sisters, and fellow female students even if they never have female friends?

I can only speak for myself, but my mother and sister are indeed my only close family left. My mother is a well-meaning person, but not exactly someone for any deep conversations or life advice. She's been alone for over 20 years now herself, and she basically raised my sister and me to not have children because "the world is so terrible now".

My sister is a lawyer, works 60-80 hours a week for the government and goes on short vacations occasionally. Work and consumption, it seems like that's enough for her. Not interested in having any children. I see her maybe twice a year and when I wrote her about my worries yesterday, mentioning that I am looking into religions such as yours as well, her response was a GIF of the Simpsons showing Amish people. This is nonsense to her.

It all reminds me of Nietzsche: "I call it the state where everyone, good and bad, is a poison-drinker: the state where everyone, good and bad, loses himself: the state where universal slow suicide is called — life."

 

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would suggest volunteering if you want to do something meaningful with your life. Or find a hobby you enjoy and join that community even if online. Even better to find one that has local members you can get out with. 
 

But volunteering is the best place to start imo if you want to feel good about yourself and doing something meaningful with your life. Nothing like having a kid’s eyes light up because they are looking forward to showing you how much better they are at reading or they can write their own name. If you feel awkward around people, volunteer at animal shelters. 

Indeed, something meaningful would be nice. I just don't see that happening locally in Europe anymore, though. Maybe I watched a few American TV-series too many while growing up, maybe it's that I have had the internet quite early, but I certainly am Americanized to a degree that is quite wack over here. There is a quote by someone that essentially said that people around the world watch American media, and they get the explosions and fireballs, but the spirit of the country remains as foreign as ever. That made me smile, because it's true. Not to mention that I like wilderness and my idea of happiness is much closer to dirt roads, camp fires, and creeks than all that civilization we got going on. I feel like I am trapped in a theme park made for women, children, and the elderly.

Unfortunately getting legally into the U.S. - which would be something I would find meaningful, because I consider it to be the greatest social experiment in human history and the first post enlightenment country etc. etc. - is not that easy to do. My 3-year I.T.-apprenticeship is a level below a Bachelor's, and my net worth is not enough for an investor's visa (which means putting over $1M into one specific company AFAIK) either. So I am in the bizarre situation, where I can live off of my U.S. stocks in Central Europe, but somehow I am not good enough to move there and spend the money where it comes from. So I am considering Switzerland and Uruguay, even though I know those are not really "my people".

 

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is your background in religion?  What are your current specific interests?  

PS:  I ask a lot of questions for additional information including about how someone thinks so looking for nuance, not for argument. For those who don’t know me and that I am constantly asking questions (and then rambling off on epic long posts if a thought is triggered), it may sound like I am challenging or criticizing. I am not. 

I have always been agnostic. Now I would call myself an inquirer, I guess. Not sure if I could ever become a follower of anything, but from what I have heard you guys seem much healthier in your ways than what I witness all around me.

 

 

[Calm]

If you want to see what we are like in person, you can find the nearest congregation pretty easily here and come visit.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/find-a-church?lang=eng&location=Europe

Basic beliefs are here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/what-do-latter-day-saints-believe?lang=eng

Missionaries and likely members will introduce themselves if you attend a meeting and the missionaries may see if they can talk to you and give you the basic lessons.  They may not have the depth you are interested in given philosophy isn’t a big thing in our faith, in fact some prejudice against it as it is often equated with disbelief.  
 

We have a board philosopher who may pop in if he sees someone interested in discussing it plus a few others who seem to me, who took one college philosophy class 40 years ago, to be quite grounded in it, but they may not notice if you are asking in the middle of another thread they aren’t paying close attention to.  You will be able to start your own thread at 25 posts, also edit.  But if there is a particular question you would like to focus on right away or to just have your own thread to discuss topics near and dear to you, just say something and I or someone else can start one for you.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe in the early years in the academic areas since girls have at least in the past been closer to the ‘ideal student’ as in quiet and doing the work, but from what I see the programs that are still the most popular and promoted the most when older are the male sports, not the female in high school.

Or have a system where each person defines themselves as they want without giving them a gender-based procrustean bed?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Or have a system where each person defines themselves as they want without giving them a gender-based procrustean bed?

You lost me…as in not seeing why you transitioned here to a different topic (did you see what I did there? 😛 )

Last Man was saying he saw “ a school system that would prefer them [males]to be more like girls” while I stepped in saying maybe they were that way early on (elementary), but later I see more promotion and attention paid to the guy side of the equation (because boy sports gets bigger than academics in many areas imo, primarily football and basketball).  I don’t think either of us was promoting the system we described.  And I know I don’t see the system he is condemning as a useful one.  Maybe he is into sports though and/or thinks sports is a good socialization tool so that kind of attention would be a good thing given other lacks he sees in his community?  
 

How big are school sports in Europe…I assume depends on the region?  Do they have school soccer teams?  

[Tacenda]

On 9/23/2024 at 5:50 PM, juliann said:

Neylan McBaine gave a very good update from her book, Women in the Church, written 10 years ago.  I think she explains what is happening very well, I hope a transcript is forthcoming.  I also think we will continue to have even higher defections of women under the current conditions.  "Any man sitting next to a woman at church this Sunday will have ecclesiastical authority over her." (paraphrase). The difference in involvement and respect is becoming too much of a contrast when women are not expected to defer to males, merely because they are male, in their every day lives. She said when it comes to the governance of the church "doing less, being less, contributing less is considered admirable." It's crazymaking. She quotes a mother saying the inequity is seen by her children as almost comical. She doesn't know what to tell them. 

I'm very weary of waiting. I totally understand those that give up. It is especially hard on single women. It would be different if there was a concerted effort to include, even without ordination of priesthood, but I don't see it. I do see some gains being taken away, however. 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing, the other day I looked at episodes from the Mormon Land podcast and saw an episode with her. I will listen later on tonight for sure now. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/can-latter-day-saint-women-find-a-place-in/id1289043118?i=1000669144279

[Tacenda]

On 9/23/2024 at 8:54 PM, carbon dioxide said:

Men and women are becoming more polarized just like our politics are.   There has been a sharp increase in the number of women who identify as political liberal.   About 45% of younger women while younger men are remaining stable around 25%.  I think this division will only increase as time goes on.   More women are going to college than men. It is about 60% women now.   Women tend to date men who are at their academic and financial level or above.   We see large numbers of women who are going to middle age single and childless.   These numbers should probably increase over time as well.  Should be interesting to see ho society evolves to over the next 20 years.   Lots of middle aged single men and women and not wanting to do much with each other.

I might be a bit old fashioned and at the same time I'm rooting for the individual's choice. I'm 62 and had five children and was able to be home with them. Now I need to see women for who they are and understand that I grew up believing a certain way or the only way I thought was okay. That of being at home with my children, but now women may not have a choice or prefer to work and still be a wonderful mother. 

The world is changing. I do feel for the older single men out there that may never have a family if it's difficult to find a woman who wants a family. I do see women making choices about that decision and it not being the stigma it was in the past, that of having children no matter what if they're able. My daughter in law has been married several years with my son and they are childless, and it's not that they are trying that I know of. I don't want to meddle, but wonder if they've chosen this way of life. They could have a a myriad of reasons, and they could be good reasons. I struggle of course, but try to see a different side, but my generation was a bit different. 

And the conditioning of women to need to desire children and marriage, may not fit the bill for all. Or the thought that there are spirits waiting to come down. And if you don't have children they will go to another family. 

I'm sad how the times are a changing. But hope there's a reason, or hope those that don't choose a family will find joy in something else or even be a wonderful example or help to their non children. Or be a wonderful neighbor for a child or older teen etc. Or just be and those nearby will see a great example from them. Just because they're childless doesn't mean they aren't valuable. Did Jesus have children? Maybe in the LDS church but the greater Christianity doesn't believe so..

Anyway, I talked your ear off. This subject is very close to me. I'm very sad that my children either don't have children or have very few. I always pictured myself having a whole brood of grandchildren. And it seems I'm not alone. Many grandparents are wishing the same. 

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:45 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just to clarify.

What you're saying is that the reason young women are leaving churches is because they teach that maybe it's not such a great idea to kill babies in the womb- taking away the " bodily autonomy" of an innocent child?

Again, just for clarification.

I understand that the word "abortion" brings on the unimaginable. But there are reasons for abortion that many don't understand. Not because  woman wants to throw a baby away. Or there's the health of the woman be it physical or mental. And those are aborted with in a month or so. There's maybe 1 percent that are aborted at the end. Here's an article with some explanation, but I'm not naive to not know the horrific might have happened and I don't support it. https://theconversation.com/less-than-1-of-abortions-take-place-in-the-third-trimester-heres-why-people-get-them-182580

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

I feel like things are seriously going off the rails with men, women, relationships, and families in western societies.

It seems like young men these days have no proper male role models and no guidance these days. No father at home, a school system that would prefer them to be more like girls, dating reduced to apps where the 10-20% "winners" take it all.

Judging by statistics I have seen, we might be nearing a point where half of young men barely have any other experience with women than female teachers and hardcore adult content all the way to age 30.

To some extent I already noticed those changes as a millennial, too. Luckily my 20's have not been dominated by dating apps, as we did not have smartphones yet. But so far I did not manage to find a woman to start a family with either. Thought I had found the one once, but when things got tough, and I worked alternating shifts and emergency support in I.T. to build some wealth, she decided that it's just easier and more fun to fire up an app and find someone else.

I then started working like crazy and managed to build wealth, but now I am stuck with the same broken dating marked as Gen Z. And I, too, started wondering what the meaning of all this might be. I quit my job, because it wasn't satisfying anymore, and I can get by with capital gains alone as long as I keep living modestly. Which I do, because there is no point to get a big, fancy place when I just stare into screens by myself most of the time anyway.

In fact all this led to me just registering here. I am looking into philosophy and religion to see if there might be meaning and community there. If I don't manage to figure this out, soon I will be too old to even start a family. No idea what I am supposed to do then.

So, long story short, I totally get why young men are becoming more conservative and/or more religious (or at least curious like myself).

 

That may very well be why men want women conservative and be at home raising a family together, or a woman with these desires. But wonder too, don't women who are liberal want the same thing? I guess I better look up the definition. I guess I use to be more conservative, now I'm just aware that not all are like me, and I empathize with people taking their own path.

I know a forty year old single man, who was married twice that doesn't have children that is searching for a mate desperately and wants a family. He's tried the apps and been cat fished? I guess they portray themselves totally different than they are or something. I'm old, so not sure if I said that right. 

I hope you and he, don't give up the search. Or maybe don't search and will it happen too, somehow? If you're active in the LDS church or another church could church be a place to meet someone? Or are apps the only way? I feel for many out there in these circumstances. Have too many women out there written off men I wonder? Are they too independent? I've been married almost forty years come November. I may not have a perfect marriage and sometimes I want to hightail it out of the marriage but luckily I wake up and do feel the desire to stay married and I'm not abused in any way, so I should stick it out for sure and it's less lonesome. The majority of the time I'm happy, but marriage isn't easy for sure.

I do hope you find someone and I believe it's 100 percent possible. Fingers crossed and welcome to the board. 

Edited October 9, 2024 by Tacenda

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess they portray themselves totally different than they are or something. I'm old, so not sure if I said that right. 

You did.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

feel for many out there in these circumstances. Have too many women out there written off men I wonder? Are they too independent?

For eons women have been taught from practically the moment they were born to make themselves desirable as a mate.  Now men are in the same boat.  Seems to me there needs to be a culture shift.  Perhaps men and women will realize how unfair so many demands are and start looking at marriage as more of an actual compromise rather than insisting that traditions are the only way to go.  I think if women truly expected an equal partner and support from work, they would be more willing to take the risk of marriage.  But I think there is still too much evidence out there that men are not in general willing to split housework and childcare 50/50 or work out a way that meets everyone’s needs.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx

Edited October 9, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

Thank you

 

Not sure what things are like in the U.S. or here in Europe today, but when I was a teenager me not being a very agreeable person while at the same time being somewhat introverted has led to all sort of issues. I was made very clear that when you don't work as expected as a guy, the system just disposes of you. During that time my parents got divorced, and my father then died in an accident a few years later. Has been quite a ride.

 

I can only speak for myself, but my mother and sister are indeed my only close family left. My mother is a well-meaning person, but not exactly someone for any deep conversations or life advice. She's been alone for over 20 years now herself, and she basically raised my sister and me to not have children because "the world is so terrible now".

My sister is a lawyer, works 60-80 hours a week for the government and goes on short vacations occasionally. Work and consumption, it seems like that's enough for her. Not interested in having any children. I see her maybe twice a year and when I wrote her about my worries yesterday, mentioning that I am looking into religions such as yours as well, her response was a GIF of the Simpsons showing Amish people. This is nonsense to her.

It all reminds me of Nietzsche: "I call it the state where everyone, good and bad, is a poison-drinker: the state where everyone, good and bad, loses himself: the state where universal slow suicide is called — life."

 

Indeed, something meaningful would be nice. I just don't see that happening locally in Europe anymore, though. Maybe I watched a few American TV-series too many while growing up, maybe it's that I have had the internet quite early, but I certainly am Americanized to a degree that is quite wack over here. There is a quote by someone that essentially said that people around the world watch American media, and they get the explosions and fireballs, but the spirit of the country remains as foreign as ever. That made me smile, because it's true. Not to mention that I like wilderness and my idea of happiness is much closer to dirt roads, camp fires, and creeks than all that civilization we got going on. I feel like I am trapped in a theme park made for women, children, and the elderly.

Unfortunately getting legally into the U.S. - which would be something I would find meaningful, because I consider it to be the greatest social experiment in human history and the first post enlightenment country etc. etc. - is not that easy to do. My 3-year I.T.-apprenticeship is a level below a Bachelor's, and my net worth is not enough for an investor's visa (which means putting over $1M into one specific company AFAIK) either. So I am in the bizarre situation, where I can live off of my U.S. stocks in Central Europe, but somehow I am not good enough to move there and spend the money where it comes from. So I am considering Switzerland and Uruguay, even though I know those are not really "my people".

 

I have always been agnostic. Now I would call myself an inquirer, I guess. Not sure if I could ever become a follower of anything, but from what I have heard you guys seem much healthier in your ways than what I witness all around me.

 

 

I answered a post without reading these replies of yours. Sorry if I assumed you were religious. Sounds like your religion might be in the beautiful outdoors.

I know many women that love the outdoors just as much, I'll bet. I'm on a few Facebook groups of women that do, or women that travel by their lonesome in a van camper. I'm weird and think that sounds freeing. But there is the thought I can't hack it, too afraid. 

Do you have internet sites where you live called "Meet Up". It's not dating but meetup groups that have the same interests. Some in Utah have hiking, book clubs, game clubs, and several others. 

Or have you thought of taking a cooking class, I know a couple that met that way. Or any community classes just for fun? 

I hope there's a way to come to the US and living here if that's a desire. Or somewhere where you'll find the dreams you have come true. 

 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

For eons women have been taught from practically the moment they were born to make themselves desirable as a mate.  Now men are in the same boat.  Seems to me there needs to be a culture shift.  Perhaps men and women will realize how unfair so many demands are and start looking at marriage as more of an actual compromise rather than insisting that traditions are the only way to go.  I think if women truly expected an equal partner and support from work, they would be more willing to take the risk of marriage.  But I think there is still too much evidence out there that men are not in general willing to split housework and childcare 50/50 or work out a way that meets everyone’s needs.

Calm, I'm too brainwashed, lol. No, kidding, but thanks for this point of view. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, I'm too brainwashed, lol. No, kidding, but thanks for this point of view. 

I am the same generation.  It still feels like my husband is doing me favors when he works around the house.  He does all of the shopping because it is hard on me and he goes shopping whether we need stuff or not, so I decided to be intelligent about it since I couldn’t convince him not to shop even when I could mange it.  He also does most of washing the dishes, takes care of his own clothes.  And never complains about it.

But unlike me it has never occurred to him to offer to wash my clothes when he washes his own.  Nor has he ever done any bathroom besides the one by his bedroom even though he is the only one who uses the main floor bathroom.  Both of which are quite odd to me.  If you have a half empty washer why not grab more clothes to wash to save effort and money?  If you use something, you should clean it.

And he acts like many of the landscaping projects he does outside is stuff he has to do rather than chooses to do.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Calm

[TheLastMan]

I've always like the movies Fight Club, Matrix, and American Beauty. Which all came out in or around 1999.

For many years I couldn't put my finger on why I liked them so much. Now I think they were about Gen. X's desire to break out of the cage devoid of meaning that they entered adulthood in.

Then my Millennial generation came along and just embraced the cage, and collectivized to make sure the cage is as safe and comfortable for all as possible.

Well, and then there's me. I always had my own head, and used the internet to construct my own view of the world by taking everything that made sense to me. So now I am a European who feels more like an American, a Millennial who feels more than Gen. X.

I wonder what Gen. Z will do. Hopefully they will not burn the (entire) village down to feel its warmth. Nobody really seems to care much, because they have little money and votes are decided by the aging population.

 

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I might be a bit old fashioned and at the same time I'm rooting for the individual's choice. I'm 62 and had five children and was able to be home with them. Now I need to see women for who they are and understand that I grew up believing a certain way or the only way I thought was okay. That of being at home with my children, but now women may not have a choice or prefer to work and still be a wonderful mother. 

The world is changing. I do feel for the older single men out there that may never have a family if it's difficult to find a woman who wants a family. I do see women making choices about that decision and it not being the stigma it was in the past, that of having children no matter what if they're able. My daughter in law has been married several years with my son and they are childless, and it's not that they are trying that I know of. I don't want to meddle, but wonder if they've chosen this way of life. They could have a a myriad of reasons, and they could be good reasons. I struggle of course, but try to see a different side, but my generation was a bit different. 

And the conditioning of women to need to desire children and marriage, may not fit the bill for all. Or the thought that there are spirits waiting to come down. And if you don't have children they will go to another family. 

I'm sad how the times are a changing. But hope there's a reason, or hope those that don't choose a family will find joy in something else or even be a wonderful example or help to their non children. Or be a wonderful neighbor for a child or older teen etc. Or just be and those nearby will see a great example from them. Just because they're childless doesn't mean they aren't valuable. Did Jesus have children? Maybe in the LDS church but the greater Christianity doesn't believe so..

Anyway, I talked your ear off. This subject is very close to me. I'm very sad that my children either don't have children or have very few. I always pictured myself having a whole brood of grandchildren. And it seems I'm not alone. Many grandparents are wishing the same. 

 

In the U.S. things are not as bad as they are in Europe, luckily. We have a combination of extremely low birthrates, while at the same time having big social systems that were designed like a Ponzi scheme, assuming there would always be more young than old folks to fund it all. (Except for Norway, they actually have money invested for their people.)

So while I of course do not want to try and tell anyone how to live, I worry where this is going for western civilization. Especially when I think about books like "The Authoritarian Dynamic" that essentially says that once there is a bad enough level of chaos, a significant percentage of people snaps and turns very authoritarian. I believe you can already witness this starting to happen.

 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

If you want to see what we are like in person, you can find the nearest congregation pretty easily here and come visit.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/find-a-church?lang=eng&location=Europe

Basic beliefs are here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/what-do-latter-day-saints-believe?lang=eng

Missionaries and likely members will introduce themselves if you attend a meeting and the missionaries may see if they can talk to you and give you the basic lessons.  They may not have the depth you are interested in given philosophy isn’t a big thing in our faith, in fact some prejudice against it as it is often equated with disbelief.  
 

We have a board philosopher who may pop in if he sees someone interested in discussing it plus a few others who seem to me, who took one college philosophy class 40 years ago, to be quite grounded in it, but they may not notice if you are asking in the middle of another thread they aren’t paying close attention to.  You will be able to start your own thread at 25 posts, also edit.  But if there is a particular question you would like to focus on right away or to just have your own thread to discuss topics near and dear to you, just say something and I or someone else can start one for you.

Thanks, I will look into that.

 

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That may very well be why men want women conservative and be at home raising a family together, or a woman with these desires. But wonder too, don't women who are liberal want the same thing? I guess I better look up the definition. I guess I use to be more conservative, now I'm just aware that not all are like me, and I empathize with people taking their own path.

I know a forty year old single man, who was married twice that doesn't have children that is searching for a mate desperately and wants a family. He's tried the apps and been cat fished? I guess they portray themselves totally different than they are or something. I'm old, so not sure if I said that right. 

I hope you and he, don't give up the search. Or maybe don't search and will it happen too, somehow? If you're active in the LDS church or another church could church be a place to meet someone? Or are apps the only way? I feel for many out there in these circumstances. Have too many women out there written off men I wonder? Are they too independent? I've been married almost forty years come November. I may not have a perfect marriage and sometimes I want to hightail it out of the marriage but luckily I wake up and do feel the desire to stay married and I'm not abused in any way, so I should stick it out for sure and it's less lonesome. The majority of the time I'm happy, but marriage isn't easy for sure.

I do hope you find someone and I believe it's 100 percent possible. Fingers crossed and welcome to the board. 

Yeah, I have dated a 25-year-old, and a bit later

 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

For eons women have been taught from practically the moment they were born to make themselves desirable as a mate.  Now men are in the same boat.  Seems to me there needs to be a culture shift.  Perhaps men and women will realize how unfair so many demands are and start looking at marriage as more of an actual compromise rather than insisting that traditions are the only way to go.  I think if women truly expected an equal partner and support from work, they would be more willing to take the risk of marriage.  But I think there is still too much evidence out there that men are not in general willing to split housework and childcare 50/50 or work out a way that meets everyone’s needs.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx

From my perspective, women are traditionally judged mostly by youth/fertility, while men have been judged by what they could do/provide. Which seems logically, at least it used to be pre-industrialization.

Nowadays, due to the reach of the internet, this appears to have turned into things like attractive young women making money off of desperate young men by streaming themselves doing random, meaningless nonsense. While those young men secretly just want to manipulate them into, well, removing their garments, if they want to keep the cash flowing.

 

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I answered a post without reading these replies of yours. Sorry if I assumed you were religious. Sounds like your religion might be in the beautiful outdoors.

I know many women that love the outdoors just as much, I'll bet. I'm on a few Facebook groups of women that do, or women that travel by their lonesome in a van camper. I'm weird and think that sounds freeing. But there is the thought I can't hack it, too afraid. 

Do you have internet sites where you live called "Meet Up". It's not dating but meetup groups that have the same interests. Some in Utah have hiking, book clubs, game clubs, and several others. 

Or have you thought of taking a cooking class, I know a couple that met that way. Or any community classes just for fun? 

I hope there's a way to come to the US and living here if that's a desire. Or somewhere where you'll find the dreams you have come true. 

 

That's alright. I agree, I have been wondering if I should do something like that. Or hike the Appalachian Trail. Thanks, I will check out this app. I am quite hesitant to start rebuilding a proper social circle around here, though. No way I am staying in Germany.

 

 

[TheLastMan]

Oh, I messed up finishing a sentence there:

"Yeah, I have dated a 25-year-old a few years ago, and a bit later it turned out she had a 5-year-old son living with her mom. So she would not be able to leave Europe. It was all quite heartbreaking, because when I went hiking with her, she said she had never done anything like that with a boyfriend before. Same when I was cooking with her. Still hurts me just writing that. Had not expected even the younger Millennials already being this broken."

Also: "a Millennial who feels more LIKE Gen. X"

(Is editing a post not possible or do I just not see where?)

[Dario_M]

41 minutes ago, TheLastMan said:

I've always like the movies Fight Club, Matrix, and American Beauty.  

 

 

 

How funny. I also know both movies. 

[Nofear]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I am the same generation.  It still feels like my husband is doing me favors when he works around the house. 

Unfortunately, much of the unpaid domestic labor that needs to be done, around the world, is still done mostly by women.

https://upgrader.gapminder.org/q/1500

One of my favorite TED talks (even though it is 10+ years old): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BZoKfap4g4w

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

I've always like the movies Fight Club, Matrix, and American Beauty. Which all came out in or around 1999.

For many years I couldn't put my finger on why I liked them so much. Now I think they were about Gen. X's desire to break out of the cage devoid of meaning that they entered adulthood in.

Then my Millennial generation came along and just embraced the cage, and collectivized to make sure the cage is as safe and comfortable for all as possible.

Well, and then there's me. I always had my own head, and used the internet to construct my own view of the world by taking everything that made sense to me. So now I am a European who feels more like an American, a Millennial who feels more than Gen. X.

I wonder what Gen. Z will do. Hopefully they will not burn the (entire) village down to feel its warmth. Nobody really seems to care much, because they have little money and votes are decided by the aging population.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

I've always like the movies Fight Club, Matrix, and American Beauty. Which all came out in or around 1999.

For many years I couldn't put my finger on why I liked them so much. Now I think they were about Gen. X's desire to break out of the cage devoid of meaning that they entered adulthood in.

Then my Millennial generation came along and just embraced the cage, and collectivized to make sure the cage is as safe and comfortable for all as possible.

Well, and then there's me. I always had my own head, and used the internet to construct my own view of the world by taking everything that made sense to me. So now I am a European who feels more like an American, a Millennial who feels more than Gen. X.

I wonder what Gen. Z will do. Hopefully they will not burn the (entire) village down to feel its warmth. Nobody really seems to care much, because they have little money and votes are decided by the aging population.

 

In the U.S. things are not as bad as they are in Europe, luckily. We have a combination of extremely low birthrates, while at the same time having big social systems that were designed like a Ponzi scheme, assuming there would always be more young than old folks to fund it all. (Except for Norway, they actually have money invested for their people.)

So while I of course do not want to try and tell anyone how to live, I worry where this is going for western civilization. Especially when I think about books like "The Authoritarian Dynamic" that essentially says that once there is a bad enough level of chaos, a significant percentage of people snaps and turns very authoritarian. I believe you can already witness this starting to happen.

 

Thanks, I will look into that.

 

Yeah, I have dated a 25-year-old, and a bit later

 

From my perspective, women are traditionally judged mostly by youth/fertility, while men have been judged by what they could do/provide. Which seems logically, at least it used to be pre-industrialization.

Nowadays, due to the reach of the internet, this appears to have turned into things like attractive young women making money off of desperate young men by streaming themselves doing random, meaningless nonsense. While those young men secretly just want to manipulate them into, well, removing their garments, if they want to keep the cash flowing.

 

That's alright. I agree, I have been wondering if I should do something like that. Or hike the Appalachian Trail. Thanks, I will check out this app. I am quite hesitant to start rebuilding a proper social circle around here, though. No way I am staying in Germany.

 

 

I want to visit Germany one day!! It's funny how sometimes we desire to go see different places, but sometimes after doing so come to appreciate where we live because it's not all it's cracked up to be where we visited. Have you ever visited the United States? Sorry if you've mentioned something about visiting already. Being from Germany would it be difficult to visit w/o getting a visa. Not sure how it all works. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

Oh, I messed up finishing a sentence there:

"Yeah, I have dated a 25-year-old a few years ago, and a bit later it turned out she had a 5-year-old son living with her mom. So she would not be able to leave Europe. It was all quite heartbreaking, because when I went hiking with her, she said she had never done anything like that with a boyfriend before. Same when I was cooking with her. Still hurts me just writing that. Had not expected even the younger Millennials already being this broken."

Also: "a Millennial who feels more LIKE Gen. X"

(Is editing a post not possible or do I just not see where?)

At 25 posts, you get all the privileges 

[Malc]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I am the same generation.  It still feels like my husband is doing me favors when he works around the house.  He does all of the shopping because it is hard on me and he goes shopping whether we need stuff or not, so I decided to be intelligent about it since I couldn’t convince him not to shop even when I could mange it.  He also does most of washing the dishes, takes care of his own clothes.  And never complains about it.

But unlike me it has never occurred to him to offer to wash my clothes when he washes his own.  Nor has he ever done any bathroom besides the one by his bedroom even though he is the only one who uses the main floor bathroom.  Both of which are quite odd to me.  If you have a half empty washer why not grab more clothes to wash to save effort and money?  If you use something, you should clean it.

And he acts like many of the landscaping projects he does outside is stuff he has to do rather than chooses to do.

I nodded several times while reading this, although I also have to say that there are several differences in my own marriage.

Although we each have some fairly well-defined "jobs" - a situation that we have evolved into - I recognise some areas that I could improve in. We do thank each other for doing the jobs that we do. For example, I rarely get up from the table without thanking my wife for the meal she has prepared. I do all of the shopping for groceries, and my wife thanks me for that - except perhaps when I come home with something not on the "list" 😂.

My wife does almost all of the cooking, except that on the weekend I usually make breakfast, and she usually has hers in bed, with me sitting beside her.

Relationships are hard! We try to avoid the idea of "doing a favour" with things that are or should be common responsibilities. And we both offer to help quite often. I'm especially good at that when there's food to be tasted or sampled 😀

[Calm]

8 hours ago, TheLastMan said:

From my perspective, women are traditionally judged mostly by youth/fertility, while men have been judged by what they could do/provide. Which seems logically, at least it used to be pre-industrialization.

 

I meant by my comment that women were taught to make themselves desirable as mates not just in a general way, but in particular as in catering to the desires of their mate. They were even told to change who they were in order please the male they wanted or had been given as a mate.  Wives had to continually seduce their husbands so he wouldn’t stray where once married a man was not expected much to adapt to the woman’s desires outside of providing her with a home, children and basic needs…which was extremely important of course.  

Just saying women were told to act dumb, look beautiful at all times, give in to petty demands of their spouse to keep them happy, etc etc.  They were insulted if they ‘let theirselves go’ (as if they could arise untouched from multiple pregnancies) more because of the effect it would have on their husband (he was now justify to look at other women in many’s view) than their personal health.  

I know there was advice out there towards men about keeping their wife happy, but it wasn’t made the purpose of their existence as it was for women.   Basically we were having to be like dogs always looking at our masters for their approval we were doing okay while trying to walk as well.

Nowadays both spouses need to make the effort to be aware of the other’s desires and adapt and compromise on a more equal basis because a woman has the ability to walk away now almost as easily as a man (kids can still make it difficult) and can certainly choose to be more picky in their mates since marriage is not necessary to live above the poverty line for women anymore…at least in many countries. 

Which means lots of ongoing communication from both spouses.  More effort in being aware of each other all the time, not just when one needs something.  More not waiting until asked to do something, but owning it which means paying attention to one’s surroundings as well in terms of “what needs to be done”.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Calm