young men more religious than young women

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

 I don't think that's true.

Compare numbers of single mothers to single fathers with children in their home.

31 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

You can ask your husband to help rasing the kids. Or you can ask for a nanny or something like that. The posibility's are there. 

Hiring a nanny assumes you make a LOT of money. That is only a option for the upper middle class and up.

31 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

All i can say is that for me males stand for more stability because i'm gay and have spend more time with men then with females because i feel atractive to men. In my life i had more interactions with males in real life. 

That is not really a good basis for comparison. In terms of dating my experience is men are more likely to cut and run than women.

[Dario_M]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This has not been my experience. There are cultural ways that dictate how instability is expressed but that is a different thing.

I'm sure it is. 

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Compare numbers of single mothers to single fathers with children in their home.

I need to see a tabel for that i'm afrait. 

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hiring a nanny assumes you make a LOT of money. That is only a option for the upper middle class and up.

Here in the Netherlands nanny's are not that expensive though. Here you don't need to live in the upper class to have access to get a nanny. In the Netherlands you also have the option to put your kid into a daycare. But i'm not sure that this works the same as in the US. Here in the Netherlands we call it "kinderdagverblijf" it's a save place for children were pedagogical staff takes care of the children. In the meantime mommy has some time for herself and to do her things. Like work, take a little rest from the heavy daily tasks, etc. And later in the daytime she can pick up her child. 

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is not really a good basis for comparison. In terms of dating my experience is men are more likely to cut and run than women.

I believe it is 50 50%. It depends on the character of the person and his/her values. And now i know that more woman then men leave the church i suppose that the values of those womans will change a bit as well. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

I just remember something. In the marriage of my parents my mom 1 time cheated on my father. I know this because my mom told the storie to me when i was older. The reason why she did it was because she was really unhappy in the marriage (and also unstable she admitted herself). So yeah...she did that and my dad figured it out later. He was angry. But he forgave her. Their marriage was a disaster. I've experienced that because i was their child and in the middle of all that choas. My dad though...never cheated on her. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is because of abortion and churches actively campaigning against women’s bodily autonomy. It is not because more men are staying. It is that more women are leaving.

Just to clarify.

What you're saying is that the reason young women are leaving churches is because they teach that maybe it's not such a great idea to kill babies in the womb- taking away the " bodily autonomy" of an innocent child?

Again, just for clarification.

Edited September 24, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As if violating the law of chastity in a most careless and irresponsible manner, and then callously having your own innocent unborn child slaughtered because you don’t want to be inconvenienced with the consequences of your own reckless actions isn’t “harmful to females.” 

Seems I was right, I read through the first article and this is what it said that struck me, the LDS church at least isn't like this Baptist church, thank goodness and may explain the reason women are still probably higher in activity.

Arguments in other Christian institutions about women’s roles have been raging for decades. Some churches have cracked down in recent years on practices like women speaking from the pulpit. The theology of complementarianism, which asserts that men and women have some separate roles in marriage and church leadership, is resurgent. And many of these same churches are beginning to speak more openly about their conservative political convictions.

Young women, it seems, are moving past the debates — and out the church doors.

About two-thirds of women ages 18 to 29 say that “most churches and religious congregations” do not treat men and women equally, the Survey Center on American Life found.

 

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Nofear said:

An interesting article about how few gen-z men are religiously unaffiliated than gen-z women and that is a first time this result has shown up.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/23/us/young-men-religion-gen-z.html (article is on this survey: https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/)

Explaining why this shift has occurred is certainly multifaceted. Religious affiliated tends to be correlated to lower economic standing (except for LDS where the reverse is true) and young women now on average earn more than young men in urban areas. The loud decrying of toxic masculinity may lead some to feel confused as to what is appropriate masculinity (and them finding an answer in religion). Other issues are probably at play, but the author didn't delve much into exploring any of that instead choosing to spend time on women/clergy and LGBTQ commentary.

What are your thoughts? Why this historically unprecedented shift?

Stress?

[Nofear]

All the posts making this about women I think are significantly overlooking the data and missing the point. Fewer Gen-Z men are unaffiliated than Millienial men. The question is why. And the answer is not 'cuz women this or that. Maybe women could be the answer if more women became unaffiliated but at a greater rate than men. But women do not explain the trend towards male reaffiliation with organized religion.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

18 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Fewer Gen-Z men are unaffiliated than Millienial men. The question is why.

Is this something new? Do you have a similar plot broken out by age for a decade ago? Twenty or thirty years ago? 

[Nofear]

23 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is this something new? Do you have a similar plot broken out by age for a decade ago? Twenty or thirty years ago? 

By age. Yes.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/

Also by gender. What is new in the OP is the change in the male line. It decreased after 2022ish (where the graph below ends) instead of continuing to rise. That surprised social scientists.
https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/women-are-more-religious-than-men

[Tacenda]

I don't think that if any gender stops going to a specific church, it means they are atheist. I think, there are many that get spiritual things without a building or church (religion). 

I think there are those that see some religions as being harmful. Speaking of which the religions that are currently at war with each other, all over belief. 

So just because the women might be dwindling, it may just be they are finding their former religion isn't doing them any good. Or feel they can still have a belief in God/Jesus w/o a religion, especially if that religion isn't helping but hindering. 

 

[Maestrophil]

Just a thought based on my observations - do you think that social media might contribute?  I notice on platforms directed at young people especially have a lot of content directed at women that show a 'glamorous' type of life where outfits that are not garment friendly, drinking and being intimate with non-married partners are the norm.  I don't see as many posts that focus on that kind of thing directed at men - their posts seem to be just about gadgets, sports, news etc.  Maybe I just haven't pushed the algorithm hard enough to see that kind of male content, but without even trying, I see it all over IG and TT for women.  

Now I am not saying that those people posting those things are necessarily bad - but that their behavior, dress, and language are not always in alignment with Church standards, and if a woman desires to follow those trends, in the church would not be a comfy place to do so.  

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

All the posts making this about women I think are significantly overlooking the data and missing the point. Fewer Gen-Z men are unaffiliated than Millienial men. The question is why. And the answer is not 'cuz women this or that. Maybe women could be the answer if more women became unaffiliated but at a greater rate than men. But women do not explain the trend towards male reaffiliation with organized religion.

 

I have also seen a lot of things in my kids social circles that seem to put down men in general (even while not necessarily intending to).  Things like 'toxic masculinity', 'choose the bear', etc, might have repercussions and leave men not feeling valued and searching for affirmation and value elsewhere. Just a thought?

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Just a thought based on my observations - do you think that social media might contribute?  I notice on platforms directed at young people especially have a lot of content directed at women that show a 'glamorous' type of life where outfits that are not garment friendly, drinking and being intimate with non-married partners are the norm.  I don't see as many posts that focus on that kind of thing directed at men - their posts seem to be just about gadgets, sports, news etc.  Maybe I just haven't pushed the algorithm hard enough to see that kind of male content, but without even trying, I see it all over IG and TT for women.  

Now I am not saying that those people posting those things are necessarily bad - but that their behavior, dress, and language are not always in alignment with Church standards, and if a woman desires to follow those trends, in the church would not be a comfy place to do so.  

That is so true. 💪 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[VCC]

The accuracy of this claim depends on many cultural, social and individual factors, so it would not be right to generalize with certainty.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't think that's true. 

Check out stats on who is having affairs.  Initially it is about the same, women slightly in the lead, but it rapidly changes.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

 

Men outpace women substantially for returning products…which may be there are problems with the product, but could be they made an impulse buy and now regret it. I go there because my husband is much more prone to impulse buying than I am.

https://ecommercedb.com/insights/online-purchase-returns-in-the-united-states-2023-product-categories-by-gender-and-generation/4577

And as far as women being more fickle because they leave churches more, this is the first time it is ever happening and therefore is likely due to something besides inherent fickleness.  In the past women stayed more than men and this is still true for older women.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Dario_M said:

You can ask your husband to help rasing the kids. Or you can ask for a nanny or something like that. The posibility's are there. 

Not really for most in the States or Canada in my experience.  It may be possible in some countries for even lower income women to get this type of help, but my guess from what I have read is it is less likely worldwide than likely.

Many men have refused in the past in the sense that even if they agreed, they didn’t volunteer and just do it, they had to be asked for each time every time and it was counted by them  as a favor to the mother rather than what they expected to do. (This is anecdotal as told by older women to me.).   Thankfully this is changing, but housework and child care is not more “women’s work” because women don’t want help. That they have to ask for help in raising a man’s children from the man is ridiculous.  Thankfully this is changing, but the culture is not there yet, at least in the States.

I was middle income level for most of my life and having a full time nanny would have been out of my price range. The only way I afforded child care was by trading with another mother, so I got breaks but ended up caring for more children over all (because she had three and I had one).  Having a nanny is not an option for the vast majority of women. Plus many nannies are younger women, less experienced and quality of care for the children may be lacking. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Dario_M said:

just feel like man are more stable because that's what i see al around me. Look at me boyfriend for example. He's the most loyal person you can come across. He would never cheat on me. And he is stable as a rock. 

This makes sense and I am so glad he is there for you, but we shouldn’t make negative general assumptions based solely on our personal experience. It is too likely to hurt others unnecessarily and prevent us from seeing people as they really are or at least better than we do if we just drop them into boxes.

If I based my opinion on gay men by looking at the two gay men I know best, I would have to say they were liars, drug addicts, and self centered.  But I am well aware this is not everyone’s experience (I do know many more good men who are gay, just not as well) and my family just got unlucky, so that is not my actual opinion of gay men at all.

Just as we were unlucky in have close relationships with two troubled gay men (though really it was their ‘luck’ that was bad imo as they were harmed by their own choices, it’s not bad luck imo to encounter troubled people, it’s just life), we got lucky by getting to know two wonderful Catholic families, one through my husband’s work and another a best friend of my son’s in kindergarten, so if I generalized from there I would assume Catholics are close to perfection.    While a positive bias is less likely to be harmful imo than a negative one, I don’t think it is wise for me to assume every Catholic I meet is a great person.  One of the worst mothers I know was Catholic, after all.  I would have been stupid to ignore the warning signs and let her watch my kids just because she was Catholic. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Check out stats on who is having affairs.  Initially it is about the same, women slightly in the lead, but it rapidly changes.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

 

Men outpace women substantially for returning products…which may be there are problems with the product, but could be they made an impulse buy and now regret it. I go there because my husband is much more prone to impulse buying than I am.

https://ecommercedb.com/insights/online-purchase-returns-in-the-united-states-2023-product-categories-by-gender-and-generation/4577

And as far as women being more fickle because they leave churches more, this is the first time it is ever happening and therefore is likely due to something besides inherent fickleness.  In the past women stayed more than men and this is still true for older women.

Okay thank you for the tabel. These statistics are only about the people from the US right? So in other country's the statistics can be totaly different?

[Calm]

Looks like the Netherlands is ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to men being involved in taking care of the children.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/08/29/dutch-fathers-play-a-big-role-in-raising-the-happies-kids-in-the-world.html

[carbon dioxide]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens when men start having to do as much as women to get and keep a mate (look nice, be nice and be available, do a major amount of housework).

Or men are going to just check out completely or seek more traditional women in other countries.  I don't think men care as much about their looks or the house being super clean.

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Looks like the Netherlands is ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to men being involved in taking care of the children.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/08/29/dutch-fathers-play-a-big-role-in-raising-the-happies-kids-in-the-world.html

That doesn't supprise me. Dutch men are super loyal and aften help with several tasks. Like cleaning, cooking, household. Etc. My boyfriend is the same way and he's just an angel. He has cooked a really nice meal for me just an half hour ago. 🩵 Btw he is 100% Dutch. Born in Amsterdam. 

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay thank you for the tabel. These statistics are only about the people from the US right? So in other country's the statistics can be totaly different?

Yep. My guess is fickleness is less likely to be inherent and more about whether the culture allows or encourages fickleness.  My guess is in countries where women can be executed for having an affair or killed for not being a virgin, they are very unlikely to do so in comparison to the men, for an extreme example.

Where women have less access to money than men, they are going to be less likely to impulse buy.

Where they have less education and less opportunities in the workplace, they are likely less likely to change jobs.

Where they are not allowed to be seen in public without a male family member, they aren’t likely to move from one place to another by choice.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not really for most in the States or Canada in my experience.  It may be possible in some countries for even lower income women to get this type of help, but my guess from what I have read is it is less likely worldwide than likely.

Many men have refused in the past in the sense that even if they agreed, they didn’t volunteer and just do it, they had to be asked for each time every time and it was counted by them  as a favor to the mother rather than what they expected to do. (This is anecdotal as told by older women to me.).   Thankfully this is changing, but housework and child care is not more “women’s work” because women don’t want help. That they have to ask for help in raising a man’s children from the man is ridiculous.  Thankfully this is changing, but the culture is not there yet, at least in the States.

I was middle income level for most of my life and having a full time nanny would have been out of my price range. The only way I afforded child care was by trading with another mother, so I got breaks but ended up caring for more children over all (because she had three and I had one).  Having a nanny is not an option for the vast majority of women. Plus many nannies are younger women, less experienced and quality of care for the children may be lacking. 

I just saw this TikTok and think it applies nicely. ETA: this isn't a TikTok, it's an Instagram short clip.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAD5gkjRcio/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

don't think men care as much about their looks or the house being super clean.

And why do you think women care about such?