New law passes: public schools to display the Ten Commandments in Classrooms.

[sunstoned]

I am all for the Ten Commandments, but I also feel that the founding fathers were clear on the need for separation of church and state.  I'm sure this law will be challenged.

Quote

Louisiana public schools and colleges will be required to post an image of the Ten  Commandments next year after a controversial bill was signed into law Wednesday.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/louisiana-public-schools-display-ten-commandments-classrooms-after/story?id=111260437

 

 

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I am all for the Ten Commandments, but I also feel that the founding fathers were clear on the need for separation of church and state.  I'm sure this law will be challenged.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/louisiana-public-schools-display-ten-commandments-classrooms-after/story?id=111260437

 

 

I wonder what the point of it is? I am with you if the point is just to find a back-alley way to codify Christianity into public schools.
 

[blackstrap]

Would the ACLU support a display of the Hammurabi code in schools ? In the original font of course.

I would have been happier if the law had been to ' allow ' the display of the ten commandments instead of requiring it , but then it might 

turn one large controversy  into thousands of little ones. 

 

[longview]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I wonder what the point of it is? I am with you if the point is just to find a back-alley way to codify Christianity into public schools.
 

It is NOT necessarily just Christianity. Wisdom AND/OR morality is reflected in every word of the Ten Commandments. Much of which are shared in common with other religions and philosophies. It is foundational and most important of the many sources the founding fathers used to structure the Constitution and the Republic. Other kinds of governments will quickly devolve into abject and brutal totalitarianism. Communism is incapable of reforming/overcoming human nature. With morality based laws we have a better chance.

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I am all for the Ten Commandments, but I also feel that the founding fathers were clear on the need for separation of church and state.  I'm sure this law will be challenged.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/louisiana-public-schools-display-ten-commandments-classrooms-after/story?id=111260437

I'm told that is a misconception. The founding fathers only said the federalist government shouldn't restrict the free expression of religion, though the state governments were sovereign and could promote religion if it wants. The phrase “separation of church and state” originated from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of men affiliated with a school operated by Danbury Baptists worried that if they became a state, the federal government would dictate what their school taught.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

It is NOT necessarily just Christianity. Wisdom AND/OR morality is reflected in every word of the Ten Commandments. Much of which are shared in common with other religions and philosophies. It is foundational and most important of the many sources the founding fathers used to structure the Constitution and the Republic. Other kinds of governments will quickly devolve into abject and brutal totalitarianism. Communism is incapable of reforming/overcoming human nature. With morality based laws we have a better chance.

Not really. Almost half of the Ten commandments are explicitly religious and those with secular applications weren’t in any way groundbreaking or different. It is not as if the surrounding cultures thought murder, adultery, and theft were really great and should be legal while the Israelites had a higher law.

 

Also there is virtually no chance this survives federal courts. This law is blatant pandering because they have nothing else to do. Actually helping your constituents with useful legislation is probably too woke or something.

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, longview said:

It is NOT necessarily just Christianity. Wisdom AND/OR morality is reflected in every word of the Ten Commandments. Much of which are shared in common with other religions and philosophies. It is foundational and most important of the many sources the founding fathers used to structure the Constitution and the Republic. Other kinds of governments will quickly devolve into abject and brutal totalitarianism. Communism is incapable of reforming/overcoming human nature. With morality based laws we have a better chance.

I agree, but that doesn’t mean this requirement is not rooted in the (in my opinion false and harmful) belief that the US should be a Christian nation

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Would the ACLU support a display of the Hammurabi code in schools ? In the original font of course.

I would have been happier if the law had been to ' allow ' the display of the ten commandments instead of requiring it , but then it might 

turn one large controversy  into thousands of little ones. 

 

Displaying the Hammurabi Code would actually make sense. 

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, longview said:

It is NOT necessarily just Christianity. Wisdom AND/OR morality is reflected in every word of the Ten Commandments. Much of which are shared in common with other religions and philosophies. It is foundational and most important of the many sources the founding fathers used to structure the Constitution and the Republic. Other kinds of governments will quickly devolve into abject and brutal totalitarianism. Communism is incapable of reforming/overcoming human nature. With morality based laws we have a better chance.

It might not just be Christianity, but it is religion. And religion belongs in church not in public schools.

[GoCeltics]

On 6/22/2024 at 2:12 AM, sunstoned said:

I am all for the Ten Commandments, but I also feel that the founding fathers were clear on the need for separation of church and state.  I'm sure this law will be challenged.

The initial intent behind the concept of “separation of church and state” was to partition authority or governance, aiming to prevent scenarios akin to those involving the Roman Catholic Church and monarchs.

[let’s roll]

14 hours ago, sunstoned said:

It might not just be Christianity, but it is religion. And religion belongs in church not in public schools.

Religion belongs in schools, just as philosophy, psychology, history and political science belong in school.  We would all be better educated if we understood the creeds of all major spiritual institutions and public schools can play a role in that process.

Because some elements of Christianity are engrained in American culture and is practiced by a plurality of Americans, the state, in the process of allowing its citizens to exercise religious freedom, may be perceived as promoting Christianity.  Wise school leaders will place a number of other religious creeds alongside the Ten Commandments.

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Religion belongs in schools, just as philosophy, psychology, history and political science belong in school.  We would all be better educated if we understood the creeds of all major spiritual institutions and public schools can play a role in that process.

Because some elements of Christianity are engrained in American culture and is practiced by a plurality of Americans, the state, in the process of allowing its citizens to exercise religious freedom, may be perceived as promoting Christianity.  Wise school leaders will place a number of other religious creeds alongside the Ten Commandments.

Teaching about various religions can belong in the schools, but not advocating the doctrines of specific religions. That belongs in the individual churches and families. 

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Religion belongs in schools, just as philosophy, psychology, history and political science belong in school.  We would all be better educated if we understood the creeds of all major spiritual institutions and public schools can play a role in that process.

Because some elements of Christianity are engrained in American culture and is practiced by a plurality of Americans, the state, in the process of allowing its citizens to exercise religious freedom, may be perceived as promoting Christianity.  Wise school leaders will place a number of other religious creeds alongside the Ten Commandments.

I concur, I think a general awareness of religion is good, maybe even verging on celebrating it, we need not promote a particular religion, but certainly not shield kids from knowing of it, but should notify parents of the lessons so a parent can get a chance to instill their beliefs on their kids and not leave it up to the school (I feel the same way with LBGQ agendas in school). An educational overview of it, maybe even tell an abridged Exodus and Nativity, teach Greek gods and classic (PG) Greek fables, Grim fairytales, Shakespearian plays, because it's all so engrained in US culture. Like Greeks, there are cultural reasons to mention the Greek religion in school, and it is a dead religion. Even if Christianity dies, there is a cultural boon to it worth saluting.

**Refugees at the New York Public Library are burning books to stay warm, but Elsa notices Jeremy holding something**

Elsa: What have you got there?

Jeremy: A Gutenberg Bible. It was in the rare books room.

Elsa: You think God's gonna save you?

Jeremy: No, I don't believe in God.

Elsa: You're holding onto that Bible pretty tight.

Jeremy: I'm protecting it. [glares at Sam] This Bible is the first book ever printed. It represents the dawn of the Age of Reason. As far as I'm concerned, the written word is mankind's greatest achievement. You can laugh. But if Western civilization is finished, I'm gonna save at least one little piece of it.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Pyreaux

[sunstoned]

11 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Religion belongs in schools, just as philosophy, psychology, history and political science belong in school.  We would all be better educated if we understood the creeds of all major spiritual institutions and public schools can play a role in that process.

Because some elements of Christianity are engrained in American culture and is practiced by a plurality of Americans, the state, in the process of allowing its citizens to exercise religious freedom, may be perceived as promoting Christianity.  Wise school leaders will place a number of other religious creeds alongside the Ten Commandments.

I agree the study of religion belongs in school.  Not religion itself.

[sunstoned]

15 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

The initial intent behind the concept of “separation of church and state” was to partition authority or governance, aiming to prevent scenarios akin to those involving the Roman Catholic Church and monarchs.

In other words, keeping religion out of government.

[Pyreaux]

14 hours ago, sunstoned said:

In other words, keeping religion out of government.

Mostly so to keep government out of the churches. The "wall of separation of church and state" come from Roger William, founder of Rhode Island, who first used this metaphor. That an authentic Christian church would be possible only if there was “a wall or hedge of separation” between the “wilderness of the world” and “the garden of the church.” Government involvement in the church would corrupt the church.

These arguments are interpretations of the Establishment clause of the First Amendment, its goal is to help secure the religious rights of citizens, to keep the government religiously neutral, not sterile. Anything the Government does needs only pass a religious neutrality test, which requires the government to treat religious groups the same. Not to keep out all art, and icons of Justice out, like the Greek goddess Justilias, and icons of Law, like the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments is an extremely neutral Judeo-Christian icon of Law. Its presence doesn't mean there is state support for a particular religion or church.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

The 10 Commandments is an extremely neutral Judeo-Christian icon of Law. Its presence doesn't mean there is state support for a particular religion or church.

You are right, it isn’t inherent in the display, but it could be the intent of the lawmakers, to create a Christian favored government, etc and if so, needs not to happen, imo.

[Pyreaux]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are right, it isn’t inherent in the display, but it could be the intent of the lawmakers, to create a Christian favored government, etc and if so, needs not to happen, imo.

No more than the statues of Lady Justice could be the government's intent to create a Greek flavored government, and the state is sovereign but... Having said that, I'm not objecting to keeping art, but it's probably not just art, it probably is a virtue signal. I'm not happy with the South's justice system always flexing how different it is. It's very Draconian, 5th & 11th circuits needs an overhaul by Congress using data from the Sentencing Commission. There are more concerning matters in Louisiana courts than art.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

22 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I concur, I think a general awareness of religion is good, maybe even verging on celebrating it, we need not promote a particular religion, but certainly not shield kids from knowing of it, but should notify parents of the lessons so a parent can get a chance to instill their beliefs on their kids and not leave it up to the school (I feel the same way with LBGQ agendas in school). An educational overview of it, maybe even tell an abridged Exodus and Nativity, teach Greek gods and classic (PG) Greek fables, Grim fairytales, Shakespearian plays, because it's all so engrained in US culture. Like Greeks, there are cultural reasons to mention the Greek religion in school, and it is a dead religion. Even if Christianity dies, there is a cultural boon to it worth saluting.

**Refugees at the New York Public Library are burning books to stay warm, but Elsa notices Jeremy holding something**

Elsa: What have you got there?

Jeremy: A Gutenberg Bible. It was in the rare books room.

Elsa: You think God's gonna save you?

Jeremy: No, I don't believe in God.

Elsa: You're holding onto that Bible pretty tight.

Jeremy: I'm protecting it. [glares at Sam] This Bible is the first book ever printed. It represents the dawn of the Age of Reason. As far as I'm concerned, the written word is mankind's greatest achievement. You can laugh. But if Western civilization is finished, I'm gonna save at least one little piece of it.

Pedantic point:

The movie was wrong. The earliest known printed book is the Diamond Sutra, a Buddhist work printed in the 9th century China. The Gutenberg Bible is the first book printed by a printing press. Movable type was developed elsewhere but was much less practical in China, Japan, and Korea and other printing cultures because their languages had a LOT of characters in the language whereas many European languages had a small alphabet of only a few dozen letters. Gutenberg’s printing press was a big step in making printing much more practical.

Basically Jeremy is probably one of those Eurocentric historians especially with the talk about Western civilization. Bad Jeremy! Also the Age of Reason was an 18th century movement while the Gutenberg Bible was printed in the 15th century. Jeremy is not good at the whole history thing. I am guessing Jeremy has OPINIONS about how the battle of Thermopylae saved Western Civilization and democracy and everything good and decent in the world from the evil Persians. I don’t like this Jeremy fellow.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

The 10 Commandments is an extremely neutral Judeo-Christian icon of Law. Its presence doesn't mean there is state support for a particular religion or church.

The very fact that there are cultural forces legislating about making this mandatory suggests they don’t believe for a second that it is “extremely neutral”.

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The very fact that there are cultural forces legislating about making this mandatory suggests they don’t believe for a second that it is “extremely neutral”.

This is my exact concern. This is not a neutral stance on law and religion. This sounds more like a conservative state pushing back against the “godless liberals” they believe are trying to force everyone to be atheists. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

No more than the statues of Lady Justice could be the government's intent to create a Greek flavored government, and the state is sovereign but... Having said that, I'm not objecting to keeping art, but it's probably not just art, it probably is a virtue signal. I'm not happy with the South's justice system always flexing how different it is. It's very Draconian, 5th & 11th circuits needs an overhaul by Congress using data from the Sentencing Commission. There are more concerning matters in Louisiana courts than art.

Much more concerning matters.

[Tacenda]

On 6/22/2024 at 9:20 PM, sunstoned said:

It might not just be Christianity, but it is religion. And religion belongs in church not in public schools.

I know, I guess someone can worship the devil, and will they be allowed to put something up in that religion? 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

No more than the statues of Lady Justice could be the government's intent to create a Greek flavored government

Yeah, like there are a lot of believers in Zeus out there these days… 😁

[rodheadlee]

Yeah well maybe they could just put up the one commandment Thou shalt not steal. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days. Of course if it's less than 950 bucks it's not stealing it's just appropriating stuff.