New law passes: public schools to display the Ten Commandments in Classrooms.

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah well maybe they could just put up the one commandment Thou shalt not steal. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days. Of course if it's less than 950 bucks it's not stealing it's just appropriating stuff.

I think leave religion out of it, and just put up great advice that's secular.

[Stargazer]

On 6/22/2024 at 10:57 AM, Pyreaux said:

I'm told that is a misconception. The founding fathers only said the federalist government shouldn't restrict the free expression of religion, though the state governments were sovereign and could promote religion if it wants.

I wouldn't put it that way. There's a specific provision in the Bill of Rights dealing with this, and one should be clear on the specific wording:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

According to the strict wording of this provision, the federal government isn't allowed to promote, proscribe, or support any religion. Some purists insist that this means that the federal government is going too far if someone utters a prayer to some deity during a legislative session. Since both the House and Senate have a chaplain, who offers a prayer to open legislative sessions, as well as other chaplaincy services, this irates them enormously. 

The original thirteen states each had their state-approved religion, which since they were states and not the federal government did not violate the US constitution. They eventually disestablished those churches. Now, every state's constitution forbids an "establishment of religion."

Displaying the Ten Commandments (or for that matter the Five Pillars of Islam, or The five principles of Sanatana Dharma) on the wall of a public school classroom does not constitute "an establishment of religion". At least in my opinion -- others may differ, and they do. To establish a religion, a government must declare one or another faith or belief system as the "official church" of the state. Which is what is done in the United Kingdom, for example, with the King being the head of the Church of England.

On 6/22/2024 at 10:57 AM, Pyreaux said:

The phrase “separation of church and state” originated from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of men affiliated with a school operated by Danbury Baptists worried that if they became a state, the federal government would dictate what their school taught.

Obviously, not every letter that a president writes to constituents constitutes constitutional policy. 

I don't see it as a problem that Louisiana requires the 10 commandments be posted in public schools. It's information, in my view, just as requiring the Periodic Table of the Elements in every classroom would be information. Too many people act as if the mere presence of a religious document (horrors!) is an offense to the public good. Unless it isn't Christian, of course. 

Years and years ago when I was living in England as a teenager (due to my father's employment) I attended an English all boys grammar school. At lunch time before our meal was served, a selected member of the group would offer the the approved Church of England "grace" for the meal by saying "For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful." To my LDS mind this was ludicrous -- it wasn't even a prayer, it was a mindless rote statement that didn't thank, didn't ask, and barely acknowledged God at all. So when my turn came, I gave an actual prayer, which left everyone in the room looking very puzzled! Since I was the House Captain, nobody confronted me about this violation of norms. Or maybe they didn't care.

 

[Stargazer]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:05 AM, bluebell said:

I wonder what the point of it is? I am with you if the point is just to find a back-alley way to codify Christianity into public schools.
 

To codify Christianity into the public schools you'd need to require the posting of the Nicene Creed on the walls. The Ten Commandments belong to all three of the Abrahamic religions. 

[Stargazer]

On 6/22/2024 at 11:21 AM, The Nehor said:

Not really. Almost half of the Ten commandments are explicitly religious and those with secular applications weren’t in any way groundbreaking or different. It is not as if the surrounding cultures thought murder, adultery, and theft were really great and should be legal while the Israelites had a higher law.

I don't think even the explicitly religious parts violate the consciences of adherents of non-Abrahamic religions. And why should they bother atheists, since mere posting of the principles does not constitute a requirement of worship. 

On 6/22/2024 at 11:21 AM, The Nehor said:

 

Also there is virtually no chance this survives federal courts. This law is blatant pandering because they have nothing else to do. Actually helping your constituents with useful legislation is probably too woke or something.

It may not reach the federal courts. I am not a lawyer, but I don't see a federal question here. Merely requiring the display of the 10 commandments does not constitute an establishment of religion, in my opinion. Any more than requiring the Five Pillars of Islam or the Seven Laws of Noah would. 

The 10 Commandments were being posted everywhere in public since before the Constitution was ratified, and continued for a couple of hundred years afterwards. And it never endangered the Republic at any time.

Personally, I don't care whether they post them or not, but I do think it's fun watching the terminally triggered go ape over it all. As if it somehow infringed on their right not be bothered by inconsequentials.

 

Edited June 26 by Stargazer

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

To codify Christianity into the public schools you'd need to require the posting of the Nicene Creed on the walls. The Ten Commandments belong to all three of the Abrahamic religions. 

Technically, but that's not how many conservative christians view them.

The GOP is trying to argue that it's about history and the justice system but State House Representative Dodie Horton showed her hand when she said that having the Ten Commandments displayed at school ultimately taught her about God--

"I hope and I pray that Louisiana is the first state to allow moral code to be placed back in the classrooms," Horton said. "Since I was in kindergarten [at a private school], it was always on the wall. I learned there was a God, and I knew to honor him and his laws."

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The 10 Commandments were being posted everywhere in public since before the Constitution was ratified, and continued for a couple of hundred years afterwards. And it never endangered the Republic at any time.

I don't think public schools existed until the early 1800s.  The constitution was ratified in 1788.  So it doesn't go back quite as far as this claim, but you are right in that it goes back pretty far.

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think public schools existed until the early 1800s.  The constitution was ratified in 1788.  So it doesn't go back quite as far as this claim, but you are right in that it goes back pretty far.

Actually, I wasn't referring to public schools. I wrote "everywhere in public." Including in legislative buildings. And it wasn't considered establishing religion. This was just a recent push to drive religion out of public life, which was spearheaded by the prominent atheist, Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

[Stargazer]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Technically, but that's not how many conservative christians view them.

Nevertheless, even conservative christians must concede that the Decalogue is not Christian. It's not even mentioned once in the New Testament. 

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The GOP is trying to argue that it's about history and the justice system but State House Representative Dodie Horton showed her hand when she said that having the Ten Commandments displayed at school ultimately taught her about God--

"I hope and I pray that Louisiana is the first state to allow moral code to be placed back in the classrooms," Horton said. "Since I was in kindergarten [at a private school], it was always on the wall. I learned there was a God, and I knew to honor him and his laws."

Maybe a neutral moral code would be nice. One that teaches proper behavior without invoking a deity? Unfortunately, all the moral relativists out there would object to that. We're living in a time of moral vacuum.

 

[Tacenda]

Maybe those wanting the ten commandments in schools, need to work on their love of guns and work on getting the shootings to go away at these schools with some gun control. Thou Shalt Not Kill!!!

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Actually, I wasn't referring to public schools. I wrote "everywhere in public." Including in legislative buildings. And it wasn't considered establishing religion. This was just a recent push to drive religion out of public life, which was spearheaded by the prominent atheist, Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

Ah, got it. Sorry for my confusion.

I agree that it was relatively lately that people have pushed back against the government displaying or promoting the ten commandments.  That doesn't mean it wasn't always an act of establishing religion though.  It just means that no one cared if the government established and promoted theism for a long time and then eventually that changed and challenged their doing so.

Though the ten commandments are historical and can be used in conjunction with ideas of secular law, they are clearly religious. They are--above everything else--about devotion to God and the religious duties of His followers.  I find immense value in them, but I don't find value in political leaders using the government to sponsor their specific religious beliefs.

Right now their beliefs and mine might align but eventually they might not.  I'd rather nip that precedent in the bud early than deal with the aftermath of giving politicians that much secular power to endorse a specific religious belief in the name of government.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe those wanting the ten commandments in schools, need to work on their love of guns and work on getting the shootings to go away at these schools with some gun control. Thou Shalt Not Kill!!!

I'm guessing none of the people who are pro-commandments in school are killing anyone.  And politicians need to work within the bounds of the second amendment just as much as they need to work within the bounds of keeping religion and government separate.

But I agree that we need to figure out a way to keep our schools safer.  Some common sense gun laws (and gun policies on school grounds) would probably be a good first step (followed by others, I'm sure).

 

[Stargazer]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That doesn't mean it wasn't always an act of establishing religion though.

The terminology "establishment of religion" has a specific meaning in law. Which is what we're dealing with here. 

I don't believe you can establish a religion by requiring the posting of a religious homily as a decorative element that in itself is merely decorative. Which this is.

-- or so I was attempting to argue before I did a little more research. It's a lot more complicated than I initially thought. Here's the website that made me perplexed at the complexity: https://legaldictionary.net/establishment-clause/

SCOTUS has ruled differently in cases where I would have thought they'd rule the same -- even the same court having the same justices! 

Well, whatever the case, if I had been a Louisiana legislator, I would have voted NO to the bill. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Some common sense gun laws (and gun policies on school grounds) would probably be a good first step (followed by others, I'm sure).

With all due respect and love, bluebell, there are no "common sense gun laws." This is because one person's common sense gun law is another person's alleged utter infringement of the Second Amendment; and another person's common sense gun law is another person's alleged free-fire zone. All I will say to this is that in all the school shootings that have occurred, the only guns on the school's campus were ones that were not supposed to be there. There are laws in most states prohibiting firearms near schools. And obviously these laws, however strict, don't do a bit of good. This is because criminals, by definition, don't care about laws. That's why they are called criminals. 

[Doctor Steuss]

Does the law say which "Ten Commandments" are to be displayed?  Or is this another instance of a subset of American Christianity being a book club, where no one reads the full book and instead relies primarily on fan fiction written by people who also haven't read the full book?

Edited June 26 by Doctor Steuss

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The original thirteen states each had their state-approved religion, which since they were states and not the federal government did not violate the US constitution. They eventually disestablished those churches. Now, every state's constitution forbids an "establishment of religion."

Not all of the original states had an official religion. Most of those that did ended the practice pretty quickly. The last holdout lasted until 1833. Jefferson was involved in encouraging ending the practice and a lot of the disestablishing happened while he was President or shortly before.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Displaying the Ten Commandments (or for that matter the Five Pillars of Islam, or The five principles of Sanatana Dharma) on the wall of a public school classroom does not constitute "an establishment of religion". At least in my opinion -- others may differ, and they do. To establish a religion, a government must declare one or another faith or belief system as the "official church" of the state. Which is what is done in the United Kingdom, for example, with the King being the head of the Church of England.

This law isn’t about allowing someone to show the Ten Commandments. It is mandating it. You are conflating the two.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 I don't see it as a problem that Louisiana requires the 10 commandments be posted in public schools. It's information, in my view, just as requiring the Periodic Table of the Elements in every classroom would be information. Too many people act as if the mere presence of a religious document (horrors!) is an offense to the public good. Unless it isn't Christian, of course. 

If you mandated the Periodic Table being in every classroom that would be stupid. Not every classroom is a chemistry classroom.

Also whining about how Christians are so persecuted is rich. How many states are passing laws requiring the display of Hadiths or requiring the display of poetry praising the flying spaghetti monster? When you are the only one causing the problem of course Christians are going to feel singled out…..because they singled themselves out.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Does the law say which "Ten Commandments" are to be displayed?  Or is this another instance of a subset of American Christianity being a book club, where no one reads the full book and instead relies primarily on fan fiction written by people who also haven't read the full book?

If they weren’t very specific in the law one of the satanic churches is going to troll them with a ten commandments of satanism thing.

[Stargazer]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not all of the original states had an official religion. Most of those that did ended the practice pretty quickly. The last holdout lasted until 1833. Jefferson was involved in encouraging ending the practice and a lot of the disestablishing happened while he was President or shortly before.

Yes, of course, not all. Not important. But the principle is this: the states had the right to do what they did. In the meantime this may have changed. Meaning, they may no longer have the right to change their own constitutions to have a state religion (not that they would want to), since over time the provisions of the Bill of Rights have been gradually drilled down into the states, whereas before this was not the case.

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This law isn’t about allowing someone to show the Ten Commandments. It is mandating it. You are conflating the two.

Straw man: I did not suggest it "allowed" it. So, I'm not conflating them. All I'm saying is that mandating display of the Decalogue is not establishing a state religion. That's my opinion, which you're entitled to disagree with. 

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you mandated the Periodic Table being in every classroom that would be stupid. Not every classroom is a chemistry classroom.

And not every classroom is a religious studies classroom.

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Also whining about how Christians are so persecuted is rich.

Was I whining? 

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

How many states are passing laws requiring the display of Hadiths or requiring the display of poetry praising the flying spaghetti monster? When you are the only one causing the problem of course Christians are going to feel singled out…..because they singled themselves out.

And I suppose that the Jews brought their persecutions upon their own heads, too. 

[Doctor Steuss]

2 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Does the law say which "Ten Commandments" are to be displayed?  Or is this another instance of a subset of American Christianity being a book club, where no one reads the full book and instead relies primarily on fan fiction written by people who also haven't read the full book?

Follow-up:  I assume the punishments for violating the commandments will also be included?  Surely, the punishments are on equal moral and ethical footing as the commandments themselves, given they are both found within the same volume and were both purportedly written by the same "law giver"?  I think kids need to know that back talking to their parents will result in them being killed by the state.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Was I whining? 

Yes.

22 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Too many people act as if the mere presence of a religious document (horrors!) is an offense to the public good. Unless it isn't Christian, of course. 

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And I suppose that the Jews brought their persecutions upon their own heads, too. 

Be better.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes.

Be better.

I try, but I might give you the same advice, Nazi puncher.

[Ragerunner]

What an utter mess we are becoming. 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

What an utter mess we are becoming. 

Truer words were never spoken.

[The Nehor]

On 6/24/2024 at 10:49 PM, rodheadlee said:

Yeah well maybe they could just put up the one commandment Thou shalt not steal. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days. Of course if it's less than 950 bucks it's not stealing it's just appropriating stuff.

And if it is a couple of million it is often purely a civil matter.

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I try, but I might give you the same advice, Nazi puncher.

Fair criticism. I will try to stop slacking off on the Nazi punching.

[The Nehor]

The Oklahoma State Superintendant has just mandated that, effective immediately, all schools must incorporate the Bible and the Ten Commandments into the curriculum for grades 5 through 12 since the Bible is the foundation of our legal system (which it is not). Performative garbage all the way down.