New law passes: public schools to display the Ten Commandments in Classrooms.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The Oklahoma State Superintendant has just mandated that, effective immediately, all schools must incorporate the Bible and the Ten Commandments into the curriculum for grades 5 through 12 since the Bible is the foundation of our legal system (which it is not). Performative garbage all the way down.

That will never stand.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That will never stand.

I know. This is just culture war grandstanding that accomplishes nothing but wastes a lot of time and money in litigation.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I know. This is just culture war grandstanding that accomplishes nothing but wastes a lot of time and money in litigation.

Someone wants a bigger spotlight.

Quote

Walters, a former high school history teacher, has built a national profile over his first year and a half in office as a staunch proponent of incorporating Christian beliefs and teachings into state education policy.

Gov. Kevin Stitt, a Republican, recently approved a package of regulations put forward by Walters that included time for prayer in schools and expanded the state Education Department’s “foundational values” to acknowledge a “Creator” and the existence of good and evil.

But Walters has also drawn pushback. Stitt issued an executive order this month prohibiting state agencies from entering into sole-source contracts with marketing and public relations firms after Walters hired a public relations firm at $200 per hour to help him get national media attention.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-ryan-walters-bible-taught-in-school-rcna159307

Why does a state school department need national media attention?

Edited June 27, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I know. This is just culture war grandstanding that accomplishes nothing but wastes a lot of time and money in litigation.

Agreed.

The worst part is that this kind of crap will entrench each side and lead to people getting more extreme and worsing our ability to work together for the common good.  We see it with gun control, we see it with transgender issues, and now we get to battle and hate each other over God in schools.

It's just disheartening.

[CV75]

On 6/22/2024 at 2:12 AM, sunstoned said:

I am all for the Ten Commandments, but I also feel that the founding fathers were clear on the need for separation of church and state.  I'm sure this law will be challenged.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/louisiana-public-schools-display-ten-commandments-classrooms-after/story?id=111260437

 

 

I don't see this so much a separation of church and state issue. Separation of state and religion (secular or spiritual) is impossible, as evidenced by competing political ideologies and parties.

I see this as a state propaganda issue, using the term "propaganda" in the historical, neutral sense of promoting, in the case of a democratic republic, the will and voice of the people. Personal motives may vary from religious to traditional to civic to educational, but the net overall expression of the people's voice is valid when due process is followed.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I don't see this so much a separation of church and state issue. Separation of state and religion (secular or spiritual) is impossible, as evidenced by competing political ideologies and parties.

I see this as a state propaganda issue, using the term "propaganda" in the historical, neutral sense of promoting, in the case of a democratic republic, the will and voice of the people. Personal motives may vary from religious to traditional to civic to educational, but the net overall expression of the people's voice is valid when due process is followed.

Unless it contradicts with the Constitution of course. We aren’t a democracy, where the will of the people trump all. 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Fair criticism. I will try to stop slacking off on the Nazi punching.

One thing about this I have to ask, and it is this: how many Nazis have you actually found to punch? Because as one of the most elusive groups in the country, they seem very thin on the ground. I've yet to meet one in person. You'd almost have to either ask a candidate, pre-punch, or lacking confession, make a private determination and take the punch on spec.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

Unless it contradicts with the Constitution of course. We aren’t a democracy, where the will of the people trump all. 

I did point out that we are a democratic republic, and that is how the voice of the people is expressed.

Of course we are a constitutional democratic republic as well.

The consensus as far as I can tell  is that the Constitution does not cover/prevent the government's use of propaganda. That is where I see this issue, not separation of church and state. This us why the people must be educated and involved enough to make sure their voice is fairly represented.

Now in public discourse it well may become insistently framed as a matter of constitutional separation of church and state. That is where I think our system of checks and balances is helpful in determining the will of the people on the whole, no matter how loud the partisans get!

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I did point out that we are a democratic republic, and that is how the voice of the people is expressed.

Of course we are a constitutional democratic republic as well.

The consensus as far as I can tell  is that the Constitution does not cover/prevent the government's use of propaganda. That is where I see this issue, not separation of church and state. This us why the people must be educated and involved enough to make sure their voice is fairly represented.

Now in public discourse it well may become insistently framed as a matter of constitutional separation of church and state. That is where I think our system of checks and balances is helpful in determining the will of the people on the whole, no matter how loud the partisans get!

If the propaganda is religious in nature, how is this not an issue of separation of church and state?

[longview]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

One thing about this I have to ask, and it is this: how many Nazis have you actually found to punch? Because as one of the most elusive groups in the country, they seem very thin on the ground. I've yet to meet one in person. You'd almost have to either ask a candidate, pre-punch, or lacking confession, make a private determination and take the punch on spec.

Nehor has stated that Riley Gaines (a very fine and courageous sportswoman) is deserving of severe punching by campus hooligans. He has doubled-down on this.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Nehor has stated that Riley Gaines (a very fine and courageous sportswoman) is deserving of severe punching by campus hooligans. He has doubled-down on this.

No, I said she sought out being attacked.

Liar.

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Someone wants a bigger spotlight.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-ryan-walters-bible-taught-in-school-rcna159307

Why does a state school department need national media attention?

This is preparation for shooting for higher office.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

One thing about this I have to ask, and it is this: how many Nazis have you actually found to punch? Because as one of the most elusive groups in the country, they seem very thin on the ground. I've yet to meet one in person. You'd almost have to either ask a candidate, pre-punch, or lacking confession, make a private determination and take the punch on spec.

I am going to invoke my 5th amendment rights here.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the propaganda is religious in nature, how is this not an issue of separation of church and state

Determining whether the propaganda is of a religious nature would be decided by the system of checks and balances that secures the voice of the people. 

If it were so determined, being religious in nature still does not prevent state propaganda from being used to protect religious freedom and recognize common  interests (and even purely state interests as reflected in existing regulations, the tax code for example) without establishing churches or sanctioning (odd term in this case!) a state church.

Religiosity is a good civic virtue that contributes to the well-being of all citizens, religious or not. This too is moderated by the voice of the people through our system of government.

Edited June 28, 2024 by CV75

[rodheadlee]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:08 PM, The Nehor said:

And if it is a couple of million it is often purely a civil matter.

 

Well I don't have to worry about that I just have to worry about somebody stealing my tools or my car or my groceries.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is preparation for shooting for higher office.

Yea, my impression too. He might as well take out billboards ads now telling us what he is shooting for. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Yea, my impression too. He might as well take out billboards ads now telling us what he is shooting for. 

It is disheartening that this kind of garbage actually works. We are so stupid.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It is disheartening that this kind of garbage actually works. We are so stupid.

It is sad how dumb we all are.  

We are selling our house and knew that some of the carpet needed to be replaced.  We figured that people would like to pick out their own carpet so we offered a $5,000 flooring allowance (enough to refloor way more rooms than the ones that needed it.  But people were still complaining so we redid the carpet ourselves and choose the cheapest crap you could get. Where most people spend $3-4 dollars a square foot on 'nice' carpet, we spent $1 a square foot.  It looks great now but it's' not going to last more than a couple of years.  We redid only the problem areas and it only cost us $1200.  And now we are getting offers.

People really will step over a dime to pick up a penny if it's shiny enough.  And that's true for most things, not just financial issues.

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/26/2024 at 10:39 AM, Doctor Steuss said:

Does the law say which "Ten Commandments" are to be displayed? 

Yes. As a Catholic I'm interested in this. The Catholic and protestant 10 commandments are organized differently. I have a suspicion that they are going to mandate the protestant version...

[The Nehor]

The Church of Satan is really going to want to get in on this.

They were heavily involved in killing the Utah School Chaplain bill which made little sense. Chaplains were telling the legislature it was a bad idea but it still passed the House. Then it died in the Senate after the Satanists announced that they were looking forward to doing their part.

Florida's chaplain bill has passed. It is going to be interesting. My guess is the law won't be used much. It sounds like it would be a bureaucratic and liability nightmare for the schools.

Edited July 9, 2024 by The Nehor