David Archuleta's new single about he and (some in?) his family leaving the Faith

[gopher]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

It probably is difficult for him to consider that. Most of us are really really bad at being able to consider perspectives that involve some kind of pain or suffering that we’ve never experienced, and that we never will experience.  I think it’s even more difficult to empathize when you believe that your perspective is the only one that God condones.  That right there sets us up to be dismissive of peoples pain and perspective in ways that wouldn’t be reasonable under other circumstances. That’s how we get posts like Teddy’s:  all justice, no mercy. 

Prophets and apostles have the unique responsibility to let us know the commandments God expects us to follow.  But I agree how they counsel us is important too.

Fortunately for David, he's under no obligation to keep any commandments that come from Teddy.
 

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

I’d like to see a revelation to this effect or an apostle declare it as a revealed teaching. Until then this is speculation based on what people assume God would do. God doesn’t do a lot of things people assume He will do.

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

I suspect that when the Savior returns just about everything we have done and exalt will be seen as flimsy and ephemeral. What is one more on the pile?

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

If the apostles would start giving effective revealed counsel to those who are lgbtq this might be more convincing. So far their track record on counsel involves such great previous hits as ‘pray the gay away’ and ‘just marry a woman and it will all work out’ that have largely proven to be duds. 

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But of course posts like this one will likely fall on deaf ears until it’s everlastingly too late to obtain the full reward promised to the faithful who trust in God and sustain his prophets to the end. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who testified that on earth some are made eunuchs of men, while other’s need to make themselves eunuchs by living chaste lives on this fallen earth for the kingdom of heaven’s sake and the glory that will be revealed. The time we suffer for the sake of the will of God on this fallen world will be like the blinking of an eye when compared to the lasting impact our will and actions will have on the infinite expanse of eternity.

Don’t worry then. When daddy comes home he will definitely destroy all those meanies who *checks notes* sought out erotic love and affection in the only way they understood. Once they are burned as stubble so they won’t bother you anymore God will surely pat you on the head and say you are a good boy and give you a cookie.

[Doctor Steuss]

It's pretty cool when our chosen God just so happens to not like all of the same people and things that we don't like.

It's almost as if He's sometimes created in our own image... er, I mean, we're created in His.  Except for people doing stuff we don't approve of.  They're created in a different image.

Edited April 12 by Doctor Steuss

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Fortunately for David, he's under no obligation to keep any commandments that come from Teddy.
 

Thank goodness we don’t have to abide byTeddy’s interpretation of the gospel. But there have been prophets and apostles, whose interpretation turned out to be wrong in the past, and the membership was asked to obey their interpretation. We’ve also had profits and apostles, who have tried to put forth their personal interpretations and beliefs as doctrine, and we are still dealing with the fallout of that today.

I don’t have a problem with messy Leaders, who are valuable and biased with their own weaknesses. A messy gospel narrative with us being asked to follow imperfect and sometimes wrong leaders makes sense to me. But it also makes sense to me that we remember and acknowledge that they are also not without bias and doctrinal misunderstanding. 😊

[Peacefully]

16 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

It's pretty cool when our chosen God just so happens to not like all of the same people and things that we don't like.

It's almost as if He's sometimes created in our own imagine... er, I mean, we're created in His.  Except for the people we don't like.  They're created in a different image.

I find it interesting that the God I worship doesn’t resemble the God Teddy worships, yet I believe we are both members in good standing of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

It's pretty cool when our chosen God just so happens to not like all of the same people and things that we don't like.

It's almost as if He's sometimes created in our own imagine... er, I mean, we're created in His.  Except for people doing stuff we don't approve of.  They're created in a different image.

It was eye-opening when I realized that for many the primary difference between God and Satan is that God is going to win. God is the stronger bully so join him and you get to win too.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

It's pretty cool when our chosen God just so happens to not like all of the same people and things that we don't like.

It's almost as if He's sometimes created in our own imagine... er, I mean, we're created in His.  Except for the people we don't like.  They're created in a different image.

This is always been one of the ways that I’ve checked to see if I’m misleading myself. Because if the God of the universe and I never disagree, and if His actions and teachings always makes sense to me, then something has gone off the rails. Because God and I are way too different in understanding (and everything else) to be that similar.

That would be like a parent who never did anything that their four-year-old didn’t like and didn’t agree with.  Nothing good can come from that.

[MustardSeed]

Does CFR have any meaning here any more? 
Of course it’s only been a 24 hour wait.

[Calm]

Teddy hasn’t posted since, I tend to wait to report not following up on a CFR after they have posted at least once and gotten a reminder and still no reference given…makes it pretty obvious they aren’t intending to do it.

Edited April 11 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Does CFR have any meaning here any more? 
Of course it’s only been a 24 hour wait.

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Teddy hasn’t posted since, I tend to wait to report not following up on a CFR after they have posted at least once and gotten a reminder and still no reference given…makes it pretty obvious they aren’t intending to do it.

Makes sense.  I don’t plan to report it, but it will impact the way I interact moving forward - thank you, Calm.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Does CFR have any meaning here any more? 
Of course it’s only been a 24 hour wait.

If it helps I have looked for declarations that all same gender attraction will end at death and the only quote I could find was from a Seventy.

Also this seems a strange thing to need to repent for if that is the case. Doesn’t repentance mean changing? If you did suddenly lose that attraction at death how did it harm the spirit at all to practice it in mortality? It is fixed magically at death. Problem solved. Why be so up in arms about how dangerous it is?

Also generally when people seek to forsake sin in general there is over time a lessening of the desire for that sin. Yet this basically never happens with this one particular sin. Makes you think…..

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If it helps I have looked for declarations that all same gender attraction will end at death and the only quote I could find was from a Seventy.

Also this seems a strange thing to need to repent for if that is the case. Doesn’t repentance mean changing? If you did suddenly lose that attraction at death how did it harm the spirit at all to practice it in mortality? It is fixed magically at death. Problem solved. Why be so up in arms about how dangerous it is?

Also generally when people seek to forsake sin in general there is over time a lessening of the desire for that sin. Yet this basically never happens with this one particular sin. Makes you think…..

You are manipulating words...

No one here is claiming that one needs to repent of attraction- one need only repent if they acted on that attraction- straight or gayqueer.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You are manipulating words...

No one here is claiming that one needs to repent of attraction- one need only repent if they acted on that attraction- straight or gayqueer.

True, though that is a recent innovation. President Kimball didn’t teach that. Back then the attraction itself was sin brought on by evil choices. Glad I didn’t die back when that was the standard. I would be so damned. Or more damned.

That isn’t what I was talking about though.

I am asking why God would consider it a grave sin if it will literally die with the fallen body. Surely logically the worst sins are stuff that the spirit will continue to crave after death like using other people or preying upon them.

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

True, though that is a recent innovation. President Kimball didn’t teach that. Back then the attraction itself was sin brought on by evil choices. Glad I didn’t die back when that was the standard. I would be so damned. Or more damned.

That isn’t what I was talking about though.

I am asking why God would consider it a grave sin if it will literally die with the fallen body. Surely logically the worst sins are stuff that the spirit will continue to crave after death like using other people or preying upon them.

Just because all fallen desires will, eventually, disappear doesn't mean our choices to act on those desires in this life won't have an affect on our immortal state.

But I suspect you know our teachings well enough to know that.

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just because all fallen desires will, eventually, disappear doesn't mean our choices to act on those desires in this life won't have an affect on our immortal state.

But I suspect you know our teachings well enough to know that.

I grant that in most models we have of the afterlife evil desires are eventually removed but I think it very much matters how and when and why they go away.

In most conceptions of the Spirit World I am familiar with your evil desires go with you and either are burned away by the Atonement somehow or you atone for them yourself through hell or some combination of the two. Those desires instantly vanishing on death is not something I get from the Book of Mormon’s teachings on death and the spirit or what is taught in other scripture or from the teachings of the apostles.

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I grant that in most models we have of the afterlife evil desires are eventually removed but I think it very much matters how and when and why they go away.

In most conceptions of the Spirit World I am familiar with your evil desires go with you and either are burned away by the Atonement somehow or you atone for them yourself through hell or some combination of the two. Those desires instantly vanishing on death is not something I get from the Book of Mormon’s teachings on death and the spirit or what is taught in other scripture or from the teachings of the apostles.

I see nothing to object to in this post.

It's been a banner day- both you and Teancum got "Likes". Miracles really DO happen! 🍻

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I grant that in most models we have of the afterlife evil desires are eventually removed but I think it very much matters how and when and why they go away.

In most conceptions of the Spirit World I am familiar with your evil desires go with you and either are burned away by the Atonement somehow or you atone for them yourself through hell or some combination of the two. Those desires instantly vanishing on death is not something I get from the Book of Mormon’s teachings on death and the spirit or what is taught in other scripture or from the teachings of the apostles.

It's a little tricky because what is desire of the Spirit and what is a desire of the body? So when we die or are resurrected which desires are erased with a perfect body and which desires did we have to grow out of before we are resurrected in order to get to the Celestial Kingdom? 

[let’s roll]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:50 AM, gopher said:

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC, but I'm curious what counsel you would offer David if you were a leader in the church with the responsibility to encourage members to increase faith in Jesus Christ, repent, keep the commandments, and honor covenants made at baptism and in the temple.  I'm not looking to debate, just listen.  I've heard what the non-believers and nuanced members think, but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who sustains the prophet and apostles and believes in the restored gospel (correct me if I'm wrong, people change quickly around here).  I don't know of any scriptures or past statements from prophets that approve of same sex behaviors or relationships that can be used to give him any hope that God will someday change His mind.  I agree that kindness and compassion should always be shown, but I'm not sure what more can be said to LGBT members wishing to be obedient to the commandments than to either be single for the rest of their lives or enter into a heterosexual marriage.  I know a few people that are determined to stay in the church in spite of the odds against them.

 I shared in an earlier post my admiration for David and my wishes for Godspeed in his journey.  If he asked for my thoughts, I’d ask him to share two or three times he felt he was being guided by the Spirit…what were the circumstances, what had he done to seek guidance, why he felt to do so, how he perceived such guidance, how he chose to act on the guidance he received and the impact the experiences had on him.

I’d thank him for sharing and express the feelings of my heart as I listened to him share.

I’d invite him to consider whether he believes the circumstances in those experiences were any more important to him, and to Deity, than his current circumstances and share that my belief is his current circumstances are no less important than those he shared with me.

I’d invite him to use the same tools he used in his previous experiences of being led by Deity in seeking guidance with respect to all aspects of his life.  I’d tell David that in my imperfect state I’ve sensed and experienced his divine nature and thank him for the positive impact he has had, and continues to have, on me.  
 

I’d express confidence that the divine guidance he had received in the circumstances he shared was available to him now and share that in my experience, the opinions and suggestions of friends and Church leaders regarding my discipleship have been worthy of consideration, but they have never provided the peace and certainty of Divine guidance.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I see nothing to object to in this post.

It's been a banner day- both you and Teancum got "Likes". Miracles really DO happen! 🍻

Okay, THAT IS IT! Now you are going down. I am going to…..

Wait, what did you say?

Oh……uhhhhhhh……never mind.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, let’s roll said:

 I shared in an earlier post my admiration for David and my wishes for Godspeed in his journey.  If he asked for my thoughts, I’d ask him to share two or three times he felt he was being guided by the Spirit…what were the circumstances, what had he done to seek guidance, why he felt to do so, how he perceived such guidance, how he chose to act on the guidance he received and the impact the experiences had on him.

I’d thank him for sharing and express the feelings of my heart as I listened to him share.

I’d invite him to consider whether he believes the circumstances in those experiences were any more important to him, and to Deity, than his current circumstances and share that my belief is his current circumstances are no less important than those he shared with me.

I’d invite him to use the same tools he used in his previous experiences of being led by Deity in seeking guidance with respect to all aspects of his life.  I’d tell David that in my imperfect state I’ve sensed and experienced his divine nature and thank him for the positive impact he has had, and continues to have, on me.  
 

I’d express confidence that the divine guidance he had received in the circumstances he shared was available to him now and share that in my experience, the opinions and suggestions of friends and Church leaders regarding my discipleship have been worthy of consideration, but they have never provided the peace and certainty of Divine guidance.

I can't tell from your post exactly where you are coming from, but the language you use makes me wonder. When you say you would invite him to consider or invite him to use the tools it seems like your assumption is he hasn't already considered those things or used those tools.  Would that be correct or are would you be gently trying to ask if he has done those things? Or something else?

 

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I find it interesting that the God I worship doesn’t resemble the God Teddy worships, yet I believe we are both members in good standing of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

Wow. So many gods to choose from yet you are still membership good standing. Based on that so am I because my god is unknowable and hidden.  And it ain't nothin like any version of any god of Mormonism, Christianity, Islam or Judaism.

[Doctor Steuss]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Wow. So many gods to choose from yet you are still membership good standing. Based on that so am I because my god is unknowable and hidden.  And it ain't nothin like any version of any god of Mormonism, Christianity, Islam or Judaism.

If someone has a belief system (whether it includes a deity, or not) that inspires them towards kindness, acceptance, and love, I think that's pretty groovy.

If Peacefully has found such a deity, and negotiated belief system within Mormonism, I think that's also pretty groovy.

If you have found such a deity outside of any Abrahamic, or traditional religious mythoi foundation... well, that's also pretty groovy in my book.

Edited April 12 by Doctor Steuss

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

If someone has a belief system (whether it includes a deity, or not) that inspires them towards kindness, acceptance, and love, I think that's pretty groovy.

If Peacefully has found such a deity, and negotiated belief system within Mormonism, I think that's also pretty groovy.

If you have found such a deity outside of any Abrahamic, or traditional religious mythoi foundation... well, that's also pretty groovy in my book.

I couldn’t agree more. In the immortal words of Youngbloods “Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now. “

Edited April 12 by Peacefully

[let’s roll]

22 hours ago, Rain said:

I can't tell from your post exactly where you are coming from, but the language you use makes me wonder. When you say you would invite him to consider or invite him to use the tools it seems like your assumption is he hasn't already considered those things or used those tools.  Would that be correct or are would you be gently trying to ask if he has done those things? Or something else?

 

No assumptions…if he had already used the tools in connection with his current circumstances and had received guidance, I trust he would share that experience with me in response to my first question.  
 

[let’s roll]

6 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

No assumptions…if he had already used the tools in connection with his current circumstances and had received guidance, I trust he would share that experience with me in response to my first question.  
 

My experience is that the most meaningful conversations are spirit to spirit and a useful tool in beginning those conversations is sharing experiences that underpin our faith and discipleship.  That’s the basis of the first invitation.  Everything that follows flows from what is shared in response to that invitation.  The premise of my post was that he had asked me for my thoughts…if he shared that he had received revelation with respect to his current circumstances, I would share with him as directed by the Spirit any thoughts I had as I listened to him share his experience.