The Nehor Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 8 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said: To see if any whites had a drop of African blood? No. But again, I was addressing the claim that it was about skin color- which it wasn't. If someone had known African lineage, they were precluded. They weren't precluded because they were dark-skinned. DNA would've made things very interesting, I wholeheartedly agree. 😄 It was mostly about skin color. The exceptions for other specific groups came late when the ban was already starting to break down. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 3 hours ago, Daniel2 said: Shoot! You beat me to it and much more succinctly, Nehor... 👏 Well said. Good to see you around again. 1 Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 5/2/2024 at 1:19 PM, Daniel2 said: Quote Again, I do not "identify" myself to others based on my sexual orientation/preference. I don't go around saying "Hello, my name is Spencer Macdonald, and I am sexually attracted to the following category/categories." For most of human history, human beings simply did not "identify" themselves by their sexual preferences/behaviors, as evidenced by "homosexual" and "heterosexual" being relatively recently-created terms.... Conversely, I am an adult biological male, an American citizen, a Latter-day Saint, a husband, a father, and I "identify" myself to others in these ways. And once again, based on your way of framing the issue, I actually don't "identify" myself to others based on my sexual orientation/preference, either. I have lost count how many times you have used labels which do nothing but describe your "sexual orientation/preference." On 5/2/2024 at 1:19 PM, Daniel2 said: I don't go around saying, "Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am sexually attracted to the following category/categories." What an absurd thing to think people actually do. So when someone says "Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am gay," how is that distinguishable from ""Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am sexually attracted to members of my own sex"? Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 3/31/2024 at 7:36 AM, Daniel2 said: Two genuine questions: if you don’t believe you have/have accepted or embraced any socially-constructed sexual-identity yourself, It's not really a matter of belief. I am telling you that I don't "identify" myself in terms of sexual attraction. On 3/31/2024 at 7:36 AM, Daniel2 said: what DOES it specifically look like/mean when someone accepts/embraces having a socially-constructed sexual identity—either straight, gay, or bi? Such folks often use labels intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." Such as "I am gay" or "I am bisexual." Also, such folks may use words, clothing and regalia, activities, etc. which are intended to signal their "sexual identity." On 3/31/2024 at 7:36 AM, Daniel2 said: Conversely, what specifically does it look like/mean to reject accepting/embracing any of these allegedly “socially constructed sexual identities”? I don't really know. I surmise that most people don't go out of their way to define or identify themselves in terms of their sexual attraction. I suppose they could avoid using labels and other signifiers intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." On 3/31/2024 at 7:36 AM, Daniel2 said: From what I understand, you don’t self-identify with any sexual identity, even though you’re happily married to your wife. Is that right? For myself, I reject the notion of "sexual identity." In my view, sexual attraction is not what a person is, but what a person experiences (and, at times, acts on). Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 5/1/2024 at 5:34 PM, Calm said: Would you please explain your position in detail so we can better understand it because if the above is not an accurate portrayal at least in part, I am having a hard time seeing how you identify the interactions that occur in your marriage. That a person is sexually attracted to his spouse does not require the adoption of a "sexual identity." I eat meat, but I don't identify as a carnivore. I am right-handed, but I don't identify as a dextral. I have sectoral heterochromia iridum in my right eye, but I don't "identify" myself based on this. On 5/1/2024 at 5:34 PM, Calm said: Perhaps starting by telling us if you see yourself having a sexual identity at all For myself, I reject the notion of sexual identity. On 5/1/2024 at 5:34 PM, Calm said: and if so, what is it and if not, what is your alternative way of identifying or if that is not the appropriate word in your view, than how do you describe yourself in terms of sexual behaviour and relationships. This is kind of weird. Daniel2 previously apparently intended to mock me or my position here: Quote Quote I do not "identify" myself to others based on my sexual orientation/preference. I don't go around saying "Hello, my name is Spencer Macdonald, and I am sexually attracted to the following category/categories." For most of human history, human beings simply did not "identify" themselves by their sexual preferences/behaviors, as evidenced by "homosexual" and "heterosexual" being relatively recently-created terms.... Conversely, I am an adult biological male, an American citizen, a Latter-day Saint, a husband, a father, and I "identify" myself to others in these ways. And once again, based on your way of framing the issue, I actually don't "identify" myself to others based on my sexual orientation/preference, either. I don't go around saying, "Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am sexually attracted to the following category/categories." What an absurd thing to think people actually do. And yet here you are, asking me to explain how I go about doing what Daniel labels as "absurd." I don't go around "describ{ing} {myself} in terms of sexual behaviour and relationships." That's rather the point. Some people, however, specifically go out of their way to adopt labels which advertise their adoption of an identity based on "sexual behaviour and relationships." Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 32 minutes ago, smac97 said: I have lost count how many times you have used labels which do nothing but describe your "sexual orientation/preference." So when someone says "Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am gay," how is that distinguishable from ""Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am sexually attracted to members of my own sex"? You start tons of threads about sexual identity and are surprised it comes up in those threads? That is kind of deranged. 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: It's not really a matter of belief. I am telling you that I don't "identify" myself in terms of sexual attraction. Which is really easy to do when you are essentially the default. When you are not it matters a lot. Oddly you seem to put quite a lot of stock in being a church member which IS a minority identity. Funny how that works. 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: Such folks often use labels intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." Such as "I am gay" or "I am bisexual." Also, such folks may use words, clothing and regalia, activities, etc. which are intended to signal their "sexual identity." Some do, most don’t. One of the most common questions I get from baby queer people is if there is some way to tell a person’s sexuality without asking. There isn’t. 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: I don't really know. I surmise that most people don't go out of their way to define or identify themselves in terms of their sexual attraction. I suppose they could avoid using labels and other signifiers intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." A sophisticated way of telling everyone to go back into their closets and be frightened and alone. 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: For myself, I reject the notion of "sexual identity." I really hope none of your children are queer. 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: In my view, sexual attraction is not what a person is, but what a person experiences (and, at times, acts on). This invalidates virtually all forms of identity. Football player, father (especially an adoptive one), lawyer, political affiliation, even being someone’s friend would be invalid by this inane standard. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I don't go around "describ{ing} {myself} in terms of sexual behaviour and relationships." That's rather the point. Some people, however, specifically go out of their way to adopt labels which advertise their adoption of an identity based on "sexual behaviour and relationships." I am thinking more of world view that you construct for yourself and not for others. You have expectations of yourself. My guess is when you were younger, you had an expectation you would marry a woman long before you met your wife and you did not consider the possibility that you would marry a man. Am I correct in this? Don’t need to answer me, though I would be interested in how you perceive yourself as I am fascinated by this kind of thing (not just sexuality, but in pretty much every way, how people place themselves in the world), but this is one way to think of identity. Edited June 3 by Calm 2 Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: You start tons of threads about sexual identity and are surprised it comes up in those threads? That is kind of deranged. Which is really easy to do when you are essentially the default. When you are not it matters a lot. Oddly you seem to put quite a lot of stock in being a church member which IS a minority identity. Funny how that works. Some do, most don’t. One of the most common questions I get from baby queer people is if there is some way to tell a person’s sexuality without asking. There isn’t. A sophisticated way of telling everyone to go back into their closets and be frightened and alone. I really hope none of your children are queer. This invalidates virtually all forms of identity. Football player, father (especially an adoptive one), lawyer, political affiliation, even being someone’s friend would be invalid by this inane standard. "Deranged." "I hope none of your children are queer." As usual, you resort to insults in lieu of substance. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted June 3 Popular Post Share Posted June 3 44 minutes ago, smac97 said: "Deranged." "I hope none of your children are queer." As usual, you resort to insults in lieu of substance. Thanks, -Smac Those aren’t insults. The first was a description of what you are doing. The second is actually a sincere hope and prayer. Odd that you complain about a lack of substance and ignore the more substantive arguments. Why do you ignore the idea that if you are in the majority identity becomes less important? Do you think a member of the Church in a town in Idaho where everyone is a member thinks of themselves as a church member more or less than someone who is part of a small group of a members in a hostile surrounding culture? 5 Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Those aren’t insults. The first was a description of what you are doing. The second is actually a sincere hope and prayer. Odd that you complain about a lack of substance and ignore the more substantive arguments. You generally don't offer substantive arguments, just assertions and insults. 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Why do you ignore the idea that if you are in the majority identity becomes less important? I don't think this has much relevance to the Law of Chastity and "sexual identity." And it's a bare assertion. An opinion. 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Do you think a member of the Church in a town in Idaho where everyone is a member thinks of themselves as a church member more or less than someone who is part of a small group of a members in a hostile surrounding culture? I find religious identity to be meritorious, and for a Latter-day Saint, essential and important. I also think this sort of identity is materially distinguishable from "sexual identity." And even then, people can and do shuffle off their religious identities all the time. If they can do that, then perhaps the same can be said about sexual identities. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Popular Post Daniel2 Posted June 4 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 4 17 hours ago, smac97 said: I have lost count how many times you have used labels which do nothing but describe your "sexual orientation/preference." So when someone says "Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am gay," how is that distinguishable from ""Hello, my name is Darin Burton-Adams, and I am sexually attracted to members of my own sex"? Thanks, -Smac To your first point: Yes, I've historically used labels many times to describe my sexual orientation. My point now is that after listening to the way you describe yourself, I may have been using it wrong, and my actual day-to-day experience and approach actually more closely mirrors the way you're describing how you view yourself, as well. Surely, as someone who frequently and meticulously posts on this dialogue and discussions board, you anticipate others may listen to you and change the way they think? To your second: my point exactly is that outside of this message board, I virtually never self-identify as "gay." I don't use the adjective "gay" when introducing myself at all, and rarely do I ever spend a whole lot of energy constructing or maintaining a "gay identity," similarly to how you've been describing yourself. D 6 Link to comment
Daniel2 Posted June 4 Author Share Posted June 4 17 hours ago, smac97 said: It's not really a matter of belief. I am telling you that I don't "identify" myself in terms of sexual attraction. Such folks often use labels intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." Such as "I am gay" or "I am bisexual." Also, such folks may use words, clothing and regalia, activities, etc. which are intended to signal their "sexual identity." I don't really know. I surmise that most people don't go out of their way to define or identify themselves in terms of their sexual attraction. I suppose they could avoid using labels and other signifiers intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." For myself, I reject the notion of "sexual identity." In my view, sexual attraction is not what a person is, but what a person experiences (and, at times, acts on). Thanks, -Smac As mentioned in my last post, I, too, don't go out of my way to define or identify myself in terms of my sexual attraction. It virtually never comes up. I never say, "My name is Darin Burton-Adams and I'm gay." Hence my more recent comments that the way you and I approach this may actually be more similar than different. D 2 Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 3 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: To your first point: Yes, I've historically used labels many times to describe my sexual orientation. My point now is that after listening to the way you describe yourself, I may have been using it wrong, and my actual day-to-day experience and approach actually more closely mirrors the way you're describing how you view yourself, as well. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. 3 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: Surely, as someone who frequently and meticulously posts on this dialogue and discussions board, you anticipate others may listen to you and change the way they think? Yes. I'm surprised, I guess. 3 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: To your second: my point exactly is that outside of this message board, I virtually never self-identify as "gay." I don't use the adjective "gay" when introducing myself at all, and rarely do I ever spend a whole lot of energy constructing or maintaining a "gay identity," similarly to how you've been describing yourself. I am curious as to how prevalent your sentiment here is. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Popular Post Daniel2 Posted June 4 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 4 (edited) 17 hours ago, smac97 said: That a person is sexually attracted to his spouse does not require the adoption of a "sexual identity." I eat meat, but I don't identify as a carnivore. I am right-handed, but I don't identify as a dextral. I have sectoral heterochromia iridum in my right eye, but I don't "identify" myself based on this. For myself, I reject the notion of sexual identity. This is kind of weird. Daniel2 previously apparently intended to mock me or my position here: And yet here you are, asking me to explain how I go about doing what Daniel labels as "absurd." I don't go around "describ{ing} {myself} in terms of sexual behaviour and relationships." That's rather the point. Some people, however, specifically go out of their way to adopt labels which advertise their adoption of an identity based on "sexual behaviour and relationships." Thanks, -Smac Nothing I've posted has been with the intention to mock you or your position, Smac, and I genuinely apologize that what I wrote came across that way. In fact, the opposite is true; it's been my intent to suggest that outside discussions on this board, your and my approach to self-definition as it relates to sexual identity is more similar than different. When I used the word "absurd" in my previous post, I was referring to the idea that I go around introducing myself by saying, "Hi, my name is Darin Burton-Adams and I am sexually attracted to the following category/categories..." or "...I am gay." Even acquaintances that I know who do self-identify as gay don't go around including the word "gay" to introduce or self-identify themselves during introductions. Additionally, when I used the word "absurd" in my previous post, I absolutely was not referring to how you identify yourself when saying, " I am an adult biological male, an American citizen, a Latter-day Saint, a husband, a father, and I "identify" myself to others in these ways." Rather, my point was that I self-identify in very similar ways. I hope that clarifies the matter and my intent. D Edited June 4 by Daniel2 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Doctor Steuss Posted June 4 Popular Post Share Posted June 4 "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." = "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm a heterosexual." Every day, in countless casual social interactions, heterosexual people announce their sexual orientation. They openly (and "proudly") display their sexual orientation in photos on their desks, and on social media. They announce and publicly celebrate milestones associated with their sexual orientation ("my wife and I just celebrated our 3rd anniversary..." "my girlfriend and I have been together for a couple of years now..."). No one raises an eyebrow. It's commonplace. Yet, "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm gay" is reason to clutch pearls. How dare someone make such a big deal of their sexual orientation? 5 Link to comment
ZealouslyStriving Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." = "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm a heterosexual." Every day, in countless casual social interactions, heterosexual people announce their sexual orientation. They openly (and "proudly") display their sexual orientation in photos on their desks, and on social media. They announce and publicly celebrate milestones associated with their sexual orientation ("my wife and I just celebrated our 3rd anniversary..." "my girlfriend and I have been together for a couple of years now..."). No one raises an eyebrow. It's commonplace. Yet, "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm gay" is reason to clutch pearls. How dare someone make such a big deal of their sexual orientation? There will always be a disconnect- because whereas some view queerness as something normal and to celebrated, others believe it is a temptation/weakness to be overcome. The latter will never agree with self-identifying and celebrating ones temptation/weakness a primary attribute of their being. Edited June 4 by ZealouslyStriving Link to comment
Doctor Steuss Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: There will always be a disconnect- because whereas some view queerness as something normal and to celebrated, others believe it is a temptation/weakness to be overcome. The latter will never agree with self-identifying and celebrating ones temptation/weakness a primary attribute of their being. We're talking about Jesus and Paul, and the temptation/weakness of people who get married instead of being celibate, right? 😉 3 Link to comment
ZealouslyStriving Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 9 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: We're talking about Jesus and Paul, and the temptation/weakness of people who get married instead of being celibate, right? 😉 Jesus wasn't married? 😋 Link to comment
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 11 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: We're talking about Jesus and Paul, and the temptation/weakness of people who get married instead of being celibate, right? 😉 It’s truly disgusting and gross when these weak willed men trot out their spouses and children as if they are something to celebrate. 🤮 Link to comment
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Just now, ZealouslyStriving said: Jesus wasn't married? 😋 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can. Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." = "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm a heterosexual." Unless, of course, Carl does not accept the notion of sexual attraction as an "identity." In that case, "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." = "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." 38 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: Every day, in countless casual social interactions, heterosexual people announce their sexual orientation. Not sure about that. The point here is that some (most?) people don't really adopt this aspect of themselves - their sexual attraction/preference - as an "identity," let alone a core or predominant one. I also think most people do not "announce" (as in "make a public and typically formal declaration about a fact, occurrence, or intention") their "identity" in terms of sexual orientation / attraction / preference. When I sit down in a restaurant with my wife, I would not consider that as "announcing" my "identity" as a "heterosexual." When I then order a meat dish and eat it, I would not consider that "announcing" my "identity" as a "carnivore." When I thereafter pay for the meal and use my right hand to sign the credit card receipt at a restaurant, I would not consider that "announcing" my "identity" as a "dextral." This is because I do not adopt these "identities." Conversely, there seem to be some people who do go out of their way to - as you put it - "announce their sexual orientation," and do so in a way that, I think, typically signifies that the individual feels this aspect of themselves - their sexual attraction/preference - is a core, maybe even their defining and predominant, "identity." As I noted previously, such folks often use labels intended to define or explain their "sexual identity." Such as "I am gay" or "I am bisexual." Also, such folks may use words, clothing and regalia, activities, etc. which are intended to signal their "sexual identity." Such people are, of course, at liberty to do all of this stuff. 38 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said: They openly (and "proudly") display their sexual orientation in photos on their desks, and on social media. They announce and publicly celebrate milestones associated with their sexual orientation ("my wife and I just celebrated our 3rd anniversary..." "my girlfriend and I have been together for a couple of years now..."). No one raises an eyebrow. It's commonplace. Yet, "Hi, I'm Carl, and I'm gay" is reason to clutch pearls. How dare someone make such a big deal of their sexual orientation? You seem to be fundamentally misconstruing or misunderstanding my point. Thanks, -Smac Edited June 4 by smac97 Link to comment
ttribe Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 21 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said: Jesus wasn't married? 😋 George Q. Cannon, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Wilford Woodruff would like a word. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, smac97 said: am curious as to how prevalent your sentiment here is. I have never met a gay person who told me directly they were LGBT+. I found out through others or through observing them with their partner or in one case iirc everyone was discussing actors they were attracted to and when it was their turn they mentioned someone of the same sex and someone of the opposite sex. 1 Link to comment
ZealouslyStriving Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 4 minutes ago, ttribe said: George Q. Cannon, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Wilford Woodruff would like a word. 👍 I'm in the Jesus was married camp. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 48 minutes ago, smac97 said: Unless, of course, Carl does not accept the notion of sexual attraction as an "identity." In that case, "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." = "Hi, I'm Carl, and this is my wife, and kids." But having a sexual identity is not just about accepting a sexual attribute or rather a collection of your sexual attributes as a core identity to be seen by the world as defining you. It is about how one personally sees one’s place in the world through their sexuality…as I described before, it’s their expectations of sexual behaviour and reactions in life. If Carl has no expectations of himself based on attraction to women or his sexuality, then perhaps he has no sexual identity…and likely is asexual if he doesn’t even think of how world in sexual terms at all. Quote When I sit down in a restaurant with my wife, I would not consider that as "announcing" my "identity" as a "heterosexual." Of course not, it’s not the context to do so. Most people don’t say anything unless the subject comes up naturally. There are some activists who bring the subject up because they wish to promote change. Maybe there are a some who bring it up because their are exploring the idea and it is rather overwhelming for them at that time, like one might share a medical diagnosis or job change that was life changing. Probably a few do because they are obsessed with it like some might share a favorite hobby, but both in my experience and how I hear of others’ experiences, the vast majority don’t announce it out of context of a conversation on sexuality and sexual attraction. Btw, you are not a carnivore if you eat meat, it’s if you only eat meat. You mean you are an omnivore because you eat food of plant or animal in nature and you announce that identity anytime you say you like a nice steak or you talk about the meals you prep with your freeze dried food processor (if I remember correctly you have mentioned you have one…and I am envious, as in I would love one, not that I want yours). You are expressing your expectations of experiences with food, which is talking about your identity as an omnivore. Edited June 4 by Calm 1 Link to comment
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