David Archuleta's new single about he and (some in?) his family leaving the Faith

[gopher]

On 4/7/2024 at 5:27 PM, bluebell said:

Our leaders need to learn to listen better to lgtbq+ members and to engage with them from their perspective.  Pointing to "single forever" or "heterosexual marriage" as the answers to their suffering is so short sighted. 

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC, but I'm curious what counsel you would offer David if you were a leader in the church with the responsibility to encourage members to increase faith in Jesus Christ, repent, keep the commandments, and honor covenants made at baptism and in the temple.  I'm not looking to debate, just listen.  I've heard what the non-believers and nuanced members think, but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who sustains the prophet and apostles and believes in the restored gospel (correct me if I'm wrong, people change quickly around here).  I don't know of any scriptures or past statements from prophets that approve of same sex behaviors or relationships that can be used to give him any hope that God will someday change His mind.  I agree that kindness and compassion should always be shown, but I'm not sure what more can be said to LGBT members wishing to be obedient to the commandments than to either be single for the rest of their lives or enter into a heterosexual marriage.  I know a few people that are determined to stay in the church in spite of the odds against them.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC, but I'm curious what counsel you would offer David if you were a leader in the church with the responsibility to encourage members to increase faith in Jesus Christ, repent, keep the commandments, and honor covenants made at baptism and in the temple.  I'm not looking to debate, just listen.  I've heard what the non-believers and nuanced members think, but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who sustains the prophet and apostles and believes in the restored gospel (correct me if I'm wrong, people change quickly around here).  I don't know of any scriptures or past statements from prophets that approve of same sex behaviors or relationships that can be used to give him any hope that God will someday change His mind.  I agree that kindness and compassion should always be shown, but I'm not sure what more can be said to LGBT members wishing to be obedient to the commandments than to either be single for the rest of their lives or enter into a heterosexual marriage.  I know a few people that are determined to stay in the church in spite of the odds against them.

What if it is not God but men who need to change their mind? 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC, but I'm curious what counsel you would offer David if you were a leader in the church with the responsibility to encourage members to increase faith in Jesus Christ, repent, keep the commandments, and honor covenants made at baptism and in the temple.  I'm not looking to debate, just listen.  I've heard what the non-believers and nuanced members think, but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who sustains the prophet and apostles and believes in the restored gospel (correct me if I'm wrong, people change quickly around here).  I don't know of any scriptures or past statements from prophets that approve of same sex behaviors or relationships that can be used to give him any hope that God will someday change His mind.  I agree that kindness and compassion should always be shown, but I'm not sure what more can be said to LGBT members wishing to be obedient to the commandments than to either be single for the rest of their lives or enter into a heterosexual marriage.  I know a few people that are determined to stay in the church in spite of the odds against them.

I think an interruption between those two is a great idea!  Thanks for asking my thoughts on this.

I don't know what counsel I would offer if I was in the position for the Holy Ghost to direct David through me, but I wouldn't tell a gay man--who has tried to marry a girl three times--that all he needs is a wife.  That's not counsel as much as it is a sign that the leader hasn't been listening and doesn't want to engage with David's pain.

I also think that telling people their whole lives to seek God's will and to "hear Him" when they actually mean "do what God tells you as long as I agree with it but if what God tells you to do and what I tell you to do differ, follow me" doesn't work.  Our leaders aren't God and we don't want to set up that idea in anyone's minds.  It's not spiritual healthy. 

If I was David's leader I would want to be careful not to 'thus saith the Lord' on a topic where the Lord hasn't actually said anything specific.  Our doctrines on SSM are logical and reasonable, as extrapolations from other revelations and doctrine.  But lots of other extrapolations of doctrine have proven to be wrong over the years so we need to always leave room for that in the discussion.  

I do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church on the earth and the only one authorized to perform God's ordinances.  But at the same time, I think sometimes staying is more harmful to the person's spirit than leaving.  Even if what someone thinks God is telling them actually isn't the message God is trying to send, people need to have space to learn that for themselves.  Adam and Eve were allowed to leave the garden to learn for themselves the difference between good and evil.  They had to have space to choose wrong sometimes, otherwise choosing right didn't produce any spiritual growth.  Members need to be able to do the same.  If they are truly sincere in their desires to follow God, they'll get to where God wants them, even if they take a route that you and I don't see value in.

Rather than telling David that he needed to ignore what he believed God was telling him and keep towing the line that had brought him so much pain and misery, why not empathize with his pain, offer validation for the way he is trying to follow God by doing what the prophet said and "hear Him", and then exercise trust in David's sincere desires to do what is right? 

Yes, that might mean some restrictions for David, or even excommunication if a leader decided that's what needed to happen depending on what he decided to do moving forward, but even that can be handled as the consequence of David's choices to follow God in a way that the church has not been given the ability by Christ to condone. 

Would walking with David through this while maintaining a trusted relationship with him as his spiritual leader be worse, even if he was excommunicated, than the relationship he currently has with the church after handling his crisis the way that they did?

[Vanguard]

4 hours ago, gopher said:

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC, but I'm curious what counsel you would offer David if you were a leader in the church with the responsibility to encourage members to increase faith in Jesus Christ, repent, keep the commandments, and honor covenants made at baptism and in the temple.  I'm not looking to debate, just listen.  I've heard what the non-believers and nuanced members think, but I'm interested in your thoughts as someone who sustains the prophet and apostles and believes in the restored gospel (correct me if I'm wrong, people change quickly around here).  I don't know of any scriptures or past statements from prophets that approve of same sex behaviors or relationships that can be used to give him any hope that God will someday change His mind.  I agree that kindness and compassion should always be shown, but I'm not sure what more can be said to LGBT members wishing to be obedient to the commandments than to either be single for the rest of their lives or enter into a heterosexual marriage.  I know a few people that are determined to stay in the church in spite of the odds against them.

Now that's a great question. I think I would try as best I could to empathize, remind him he is loved regardless of the course of action he takes. and to stay as close as he can to his Father-In-Heaven throughout his journey. I would not make any statement re: his ultimate reward after this life - I simply don't know what that is. We know we have been given certain guidelines regards to sexual activities but the end result after this life and through the prism of said individual's capacity is entirely unknown to me.

[Daniel2]

How about we move any gender identity discussions to a separate thread, since sexual orientation is not the same thing as gender identity.  Those are worthwhile conversations to have, but would be more appropriate in another thread.

Edited April 11, 2024 by Daniel2

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, gopher said:

I hate to interrupt the slap fight between Nehor and SMAC,

Why? Someone should. They be crazy.

[teddyaware]

On 4/7/2024 at 5:27 PM, bluebell said:

Our leaders need to learn to listen better to lgtbq+ members and to engage with them from their perspective.  Pointing to "single forever" or "heterosexual marriage" as the answers to their suffering is so short sighted. 

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

But of course posts like this one will likely fall on deaf ears until it’s everlastingly too late to obtain the full reward promised to the faithful who trust in God and sustain his prophets to the end. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who testified that on earth some are made eunuchs of men, while other’s need to make themselves eunuchs by living chaste lives on this fallen earth for the kingdom of heaven’s sake and the glory that will be revealed. The time we suffer for the sake of the will of God on this fallen world will be like the blinking of an eye when compared to the lasting impact our will and actions will have on the infinite expanse of eternity.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

CFR please

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

But of course posts like this one will likely fall on deaf ears until it’s everlastingly too late to obtain the full reward promised to the faithful who trust in God and sustain his prophets to the end. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who testified that on earth some are made eunuchs of men, while other’s need to make themselves eunuchs by living chaste lives on this fallen earth for the kingdom of heaven’s sake and the glory that will be revealed. The time we suffer for the sake of the will of God on this fallen world will be like the blinking of an eye when compared to the lasting impact our will and actions will have on the infinite expanse of eternity.

You’re so judgmental and self righteous in this post that it makes more sense to ignore your thoughts on this subject than to try to engage.  They clearly aren’t coming from a good place.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

But of course posts like this one will likely fall on deaf ears until it’s everlastingly too late to obtain the full reward promised to the faithful who trust in God and sustain his prophets to the end. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who testified that on earth some are made eunuchs of men, while other’s need to make themselves eunuchs by living chaste lives on this fallen earth for the kingdom of heaven’s sake and the glory that will be revealed. The time we suffer for the sake of the will of God on this fallen world will be like the blinking of an eye when compared to the lasting impact our will and actions will have on the infinite expanse of eternity.

Please walk a mile in their shoes before passing judgement. I’m thinking you  have never had to make the choice to live your whole life as a eunuch. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

Given how this has been the constant message I have heard since homosexuality became a more accepted lifestyle in secular society or at least people were willing to talk about it without automatically going to ‘how disgusting’ in the 1980s, I suspect everyone in the Church for more than a few months has heard this theory.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

CFR please

Technically none of us will be experiencing attraction as gay or straight since the “natural man” will be put aside if exalted….whatever that ends up being.

Unless exaltation means eternal dating and matchmaking….then it would make sense to continue to have sexual attraction to a large group of people rather than narrowed down to one’s partner or partners.

Edited April 11, 2024 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Technically none of us will be experiencing attraction as gay or straight since the “natural man” will be put aside if exalted….whatever that ends up being.

Unless exaltation means eternal dating and matchmaking….

We just don’t know anything. 

[MustardSeed]

I’m going to hold firm on this request. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

We just don’t know anything. 

That would be the winner imo for most accuracy about predictions for the next life…

Edited April 11, 2024 by Calm

[gopher]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know what counsel I would offer if I was in the position for the Holy Ghost to direct David through me, but I wouldn't tell a gay man--who has tried to marry a girl three times--that all he needs is a wife.  That's not counsel as much as it is a sign that the leader hasn't been listening and doesn't want to engage with David's pain.

Thanks for your thoughts.  I wonder if this apostle could have said anything to David that would have convinced him to stay in the church.  It's probably difficult for him to believe that there's no place for someone like David in the church, as is often claimed.  It'll be interesting to see how these conversations play out in the upcoming years since more young people are identifying as LGBT.

[gopher]

11 hours ago, Peacefully said:

What if it is not God but men who need to change their mind? 

Don't you think that is already happening?  The majority of men and women have changed their minds, it's God that still hasn't changed His commandments through His prophets.  Maybe that day will eventually come, but I think it's unlikely.  

[gopher]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why? Someone should. They be crazy.

I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm entertained by both of you.  As long as you promise to be friends afterwards.

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, gopher said:

Don't you think that is already happening?  The majority of men and women have changed their minds, it's God that still hasn't changed His commandments through His prophets.  Maybe that day will eventually come, but I think it's unlikely.  

Ah, but what of the commandments on blacks being withheld from having the Priesthood? That has been said to have been a racist notion that no longer holds true. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.²⁴

Edited April 11, 2024 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, gopher said:

Thanks for your thoughts.  I wonder if this apostle could have said anything to David that would have convinced him to stay in the church.  It's probably difficult for him to believe that there's no place for someone like David in the church, as is often claimed.  It'll be interesting to see how these conversations play out in the upcoming years since more young people are identifying as LGBT.

It probably is difficult for him to consider that. Most of us are really really bad at being able to consider perspectives that involve some kind of pain or suffering that we’ve never experienced, and that we never will experience.  I think it’s even more difficult to empathize when you believe that your perspective is the only one that God condones.  That right there sets us up to be dismissive of peoples pain and perspective in ways that wouldn’t be reasonable under other circumstances. That’s how we get posts like Teddy’s:  all justice, no mercy. 

[Smiley McGee]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if it’s ever once dawned on the minds of those church members who are now wavering on the law of chastity and the Family Proclamation that when the vast majority of the human family exits this fallen state through the triumph of the Lamb, that those who are now experiencing same sex attraction will no longer be that way after they are resurrected and enter into one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory?

And have any of these faltering ones ever considered the possibility that in attempting to gain acceptance for same sex temple marriage that they’re actually constructing unstable dwellings of straw on foundations of sand — flimsy, ephemeral structures that will be blown away like so much chaff in the wind when when the God of truth and righteousness sets his post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory in order and heals the nations?

And did it ever enter into the minds of the arc steadies that one day the people whom they think they’re helping will turn to them and say, “How I wish you hadn’t emboldened me in my short sighted rebellion against the holy will of God! Why didn’t you trust that the living apostles and prophets of the restored church of Christ were able to see the future with far greater love, compassion, clarity and holy insight than you?

But of course posts like this one will likely fall on deaf ears until it’s everlastingly too late to obtain the full reward promised to the faithful who trust in God and sustain his prophets to the end. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who testified that on earth some are made eunuchs of men, while other’s need to make themselves eunuchs by living chaste lives on this fallen earth for the kingdom of heaven’s sake and the glory that will be revealed. The time we suffer for the sake of the will of God on this fallen world will be like the blinking of an eye when compared to the lasting impact our will and actions will have on the infinite expanse of eternity.

So profound, thank you. When you have a spare moment, I’d love to know how you created the world in only six days. 

Edited April 11, 2024 by Smiley McGee

[Peacefully]

54 minutes ago, gopher said:

Don't you think that is already happening?  The majority of men and women have changed their minds, it's God that still hasn't changed His commandments through His prophets.  Maybe that day will eventually come, but I think it's unlikely.  

We will have to agree to disagree. 

[Peacefully]

4 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

So profound, thank you. When you have a spare moment, I’d love to know how you created the world in only six days. 

Did you steal this from 1776, lol? John Adams: Good god! A whole week! The entire earth was created in a week! Thomas Jefferson: Someday, you must tell me how you did it.

[Smiley McGee]

5 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Did you steal this from 1776, lol? John Adams: Good god! A whole week! The entire earth was created in a week! Thomas Jefferson: Someday, you must tell me how you did it.

Steve Jobs with Michael Fassbender. 

[gopher]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Ah, but what of the commandments on blacks being withheld from having the Priesthood? That has been said to have been a racist notion that no longer holds true. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.²⁴

Sure, but apparently that was a commandment to the prophet of the church to withhold the priesthood.  Black members weren't breaking any commandments that kept them from receiving the priesthood.  I don't think it's a good comparison.