David Archuleta's new single about he and (some in?) his family leaving the Faith

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You are proving my point about "silenc{ing} ... speech."

*looks at the length of the post I am responding to*

This is silence?

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

We are getting lots and lots of mixed messaging about the long-term effects and efficacy of "gender affirming care."

2004 news item: Sex changes are not effective, say researchers

The Guardian? Okay, I’ll bite. So the counterargument for the study showing positive results is that the study weren’t able to get follow up information on about half the patients. This is arguing the study wasn’t comprehensive enough to draw results from and of course the Guardian ran with that headline because it is the Guardian.

Not off to a strong start here.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2009: Quality of life 15 years after sex reassignment surgery for transsexualism

The control group didn’t even have gender dysphoria. Comparing people who had gender-affirming surgery to randos who had similar self-assessments? Get out of here.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2011 Study in National Library of Medicine: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

“Random population controls” matched by birth year and gender. Same problem.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2012: Gender reassignment surgery - a 13 year review of surgical outcomes

Surgical procedures sometimes have complications! The secret reality the medical world doesn’t WANT YOU TO KNOW!

The surgical method you bolded has been refined since then. No comment on the surgical procedures with only rare complications? No?

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2016: Long-Term Follow-Up of Individuals Undergoing Sex-Reassignment Surgery: Somatic Morbidity and Cause of Death

I think "casual relations" is supposed to be "causal relations."

2020 Public Discourse article: Transition as Treatment: The Best Studies Show the Worst Outcomes

This is a troubling phenomenon.

2020 Latter to the Editor (American Journal of Psychiatry) : Confounding Effects on Mental Health Observations After Sex Reassignment Surgery

2020: Long-term effect of gender-affirming hormone treatment on depression and anxiety symptoms in transgender people: A prospective cohort study

2020: Correction of a Key Study: No Evidence of “Gender-Affirming” Surgeries Improving Mental Health (Society of Evidence Based Gender Medicine) :

I’m done. If you aren’t going to try to understand the studies and will instead just do mass copy and pastes why should I look at it?

On the off chance you are interested in mental and physical health outcomes I would recommend looking at the meta-analyses of the data of multiple studies instead of cherry-picking and saying the data is “mixed”.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, it should.  Some, unfortunately, want to stifle/censor such debate.  Bummer, that.

Actual debate requires facts and people who understand them. You aren’t debating. You are copy/pasting.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

First: "{T}he study concluded that surgery has a beneficial effect on mental health, and that benefits continue to accrue over time."

Then: "However, following a reanalysis of the data, this conclusion has now been officially corrected to indicate that there is no advantage of surgery.'”

This was not a minor "correction."  It was essentially a 180° reversal on and repudiation of the study.

Wow.  Wow.

SHOCKING! SEGM who wrote this is not a medical organization. It is a political lobbying group opposed to gender affirming medical care.

For those who don’t know about them these are the screwballs who argued that Canada should amend their law banning conversion therapy to carve out an exception so that conversion therapy can be done on transgender people.

They have been described as purveyors of “anti-LGBT pseudoscience”.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Gender dysphoric patients and the clinicians who care for them need quality, accurate information to make informed decisions."

Indeed.

The quoted statement is accurate and true but it loses impact when it comes from charlatans.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet we also have this undated statement from Cornell University: What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being?

Oh look, an actual meta-analysis showing that 93% of studies show that gender-affirming care has a positive effect on mental and emotional health.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2021: Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Prevalence

2021: New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery Are Significantly Less Likely To Experience Psychological Distress Or Suicidal Ideation

2021 article: The grim reality of gender reassignment

2022 study: Long-term Outcomes After Gender-Affirming Surgery: 40-Year Follow-up Study

2022 article from Florida Agency for Health Care Administration: Let Kids Be Kids

2023 news article: Trans surgery nightmares revealed: 81% endure pain in the five years after gender-change procedures, more than half say having sex is painful - and a third are left incontinent, survey shows

2023: As Spain advances trans rights, Sweden backtracks on gender-affirming treatments for teens

So now you are just posting random articles whether they agree with you or not? Bold strategy.

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I wish your young friend well.

While you propagandize against the treatment that is helping him.

 

Do you know what I call people who claim to sympathize with those who struggle with ADHD and wish them the best while trying to cut off or limit access to medication that improves our quality of life?

Enemies.

[manol]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Post of the year, decade or however long this topic has been in threads...

Thanks, but that highly-coveted "post of the year" status may be very short-lived:  @smac97 is far more intelligent than me, and it's his turn at bat!

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 Manol, I could gush about you, [blah blah blah...]

Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually a sociopath.  My parole officer says that I'm a very convincing one...

Seriously, thank you. 

Edited April 5, 2024 by manol

[why me]

I don't see why  a person needs to leave the church based on sexual orientation. I have found the LDS community rather understanding of people's sexual preferences. I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for being gay. What I have found interesting is that since the proclamation of the family just how things have changed in Western society. It seems now it is an anything goes civilisation. The LDS church is in a pickle jar when it comes to all this. I don't think that the temple will be having same sex dealings anytime soon. Nor ward marriages of same sex couples. Its entire family philosophy depends on women and men marrying. 

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, why me said:

I don't see why  a person needs to leave the church based on sexual orientation. I have found the LDS community rather understanding of people's sexual preferences. I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for being gay. What I have found interesting is that since the proclamation of the family just how things have changed in Western society. It seems now it is an anything goes civilisation. The LDS church is in a pickle jar when it comes to all this. I don't think that the temple will be having same sex dealings anytime soon. Nor ward marriages of same sex couples. Its entire family philosophy depends on women and men marrying. 

Many people think they are being “accepting” when they are not.

[Peacefully]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Many people think they are being “accepting” when they are not.

They are being accepting but with major caveats. 

Edited April 6, 2024 by Peacefully

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

They are being accepting but with major caveats. 

Yeah, it is more that they are deliberately trying to be nice. Then they hold meetings discussing the person’s status and potential threat level. They treat them as if they need special handling and that you have to protect yourself from them. If they are youth it is even worse. Suddenly they are a problem that has to be dealt with.

Meanwhile some of the ward just wishes these people would go away.

[Peacefully]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, it is more that they are deliberately trying to be nice. Then they hold meetings discussing the person’s status and potential threat level. They treat them as if they need special handling and that you have to protect yourself from them. If they are youth it is even worse. Suddenly they are a problem that has to be dealt with.

Meanwhile some of the ward just wishes these people would go away.

I have heard of some very accepting wards in places like California. But even sincere acceptance by members doesn’t change the rules that make them “other.”

[ZealouslyStriving]

Sooo... He won't be doing this again?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/image/david-archuleta-tabernacle-choir-169af72?lang=eng

[why me]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Many people think they are being “accepting” when they are not.

Maybe so. But I think that most members are rather tolerant these days. It is interesting that the mom also left the LDS church to show solidarity with David. Does she believe in the LDS faith still? And did David have bad experiences with the members? I think that in the west there is much confusion over identities. I don't see this outside the West. And I think that many people are rather confused about it all. I just can't see most lds members being harsh to the LGBT community.

 

Edited April 7, 2024 by why me

[why me]

8 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I have heard of some very accepting wards in places like California. But even sincere acceptance by members doesn’t change the rules that make them “other.”

The lds church is a world wide church with members outside the Western paradigm. I think that in many parts of the world there is much more intolerance toward 'others' whoever ehy may be or whatever they may be. But I think that inside the lds church there is a great deal of tolerance, regardless of geographical location. If a gay lds couple marries in a civil marriage outside the lds church and are members of the lds church, I don't see an excommunication forthcoming if they are having sexual relations. I just see acceptance of their 'difference'.

[why me]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sooo... He won't be doing this again?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/image/david-archuleta-tabernacle-choir-169af72?lang=eng

This is interesting. How does one go from faith to non faith? I have this feeling that many members who knew David knew that he was gay. But interestingly David received an answer from God. He knelt down and prayed a prayer and received an answer. He was not told to leave the lds faith but rather God gave him an interesting answer to his prayer. I will post it in my next post.

 

 

[why me]

2 minutes ago, why me said:

This is interesting. How does one go from faith to non faith? I have this feeling that many members who knew David knew that he was gay. But interestingly David received an answer from God. He knelt down and prayed a prayer and received an answer. He was not told to leave the lds faith but rather God gave him an interesting answer to his prayer. I will post it in my next post.

 

 

David prays for guidance and receives an interesting answer from God. It can be found at around 13.40 onwards.

Edited April 7, 2024 by why me

[Peacefully]

10 hours ago, why me said:

The lds church is a world wide church with members outside the Western paradigm. I think that in many parts of the world there is much more intolerance toward 'others' whoever ehy may be or whatever they may be. But I think that inside the lds church there is a great deal of tolerance, regardless of geographical location. If a gay lds couple marries in a civil marriage outside the lds church and are members of the lds church, I don't see an excommunication forthcoming if they are having sexual relations. I just see acceptance of their 'difference'.

That would be a baby step in the right direction, I suppose. But I defer to others who are living it to say whether this would be enough for now. 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, why me said:

The lds church is a world wide church with members outside the Western paradigm. I think that in many parts of the world there is much more intolerance toward 'others' whoever ehy may be or whatever they may be. But I think that inside the lds church there is a great deal of tolerance, regardless of geographical location. If a gay lds couple marries in a civil marriage outside the lds church and are members of the lds church, I don't see an excommunication forthcoming if they are having sexual relations. I just see acceptance of their 'difference'.

You see this actually happening or you imagine/like to think it is happening?

[why me]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You see this actually happening or you imagine/like to think it is happening?

It is actually happening. When we look at Africa, there can be a intolerance of difference. If we look at the middle east, there is great intolerance toward difference. And if we look at certain countries in Asia, it is no different. But I think that church members are rather tolerant of difference and much more non-judgemental. I don't see the lds church excommunicating LBTG members. And I am sure that if a gay or lesbian couple would join the church, they would be welcomed. I have never heard of any discrimination

[why me]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

That would be a baby step in the right direction, I suppose. But I defer to others who are living it to say whether this would bI e enough for now. 

Of course there are rules. But then again,  I am not temple worthy and I am still welcomed in the lds church. I know the rules and I choose to follow what I want to follow. No problem. Why would it be any different with a same sex attraction couple? Or anyone else? David was still welcomed in the lds church as far I have read. He chose to leave as did his mother. I did not see any pressure. And I posted the video, David prayed and received his answer which shows God answers prayers. But God did not tell him to leave the lds church. Just to be true to himself. Not a bad answer.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, why me said:

It is actually happening. When we look at Africa, there can be a intolerance of difference. If we look at the middle east, there is great intolerance toward difference. And if we look at certain countries in Asia, it is no different. But I think that church members are rather tolerant of difference and much more non-judgemental. I don't see the lds church excommunicating LBTG members. And I am sure that if a gay or lesbian couple would join the church, they would be welcomed. I have never heard of any discrimination

Africa’s intolerance of LGBT people is to a large extent imported from British colonialism. American religious leaders have encouraged harsher anti-gay laws in various African nations. It was actually a nice reminder for those here not to trust these people. They would do the same in the US and elsewhere if they could. Some members of the Church are involved with these efforts.

And no, the experience of LGBT LDS in South America and Africa is not generally one of acceptance and love. In Africa it is often ‘hide it completely’ or risk imprisonment or death.  When you are in a homophobic culture the local church leaders generally do little to nothing to blunt that stigma.

If you have never heard of any discrimination then yeah….you are just guessing. And you are guessing wrong. Read stories.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, why me said:

I have never heard of any discrimination

Ever or just recently? As in the last few years?

Edited April 7, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Some members of the Church are involved with these efforts.

CFR please

[why me]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ever or just recently? As in the last few years?

In general. Usually people attracted to the same sex have just left and at times their relatives too can leave. But no one to my knowledge discriminated against them in church. I don't see it as a big concern for the members that have been involved with at churches.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, why me said:

In general. Usually people attracted to the same sex have just left and at times their relatives too can leave. But no one to my knowledge discriminated against them in church. I don't see it as a big concern for the members that have been involved with at churches.

Are you not aware of the excommunication policy for apostasy for participating in a gay marriage that was in force back in 2015 for a few years before it was rescinded? Do you not see that as discrimination (whether or not it was appropriate discrimination, I don’t see how you could say it wasn’t discrimination)?

Edited April 7, 2024 by Calm

[pogi]

14 hours ago, why me said:

David prays for guidance and receives an interesting answer from God. It can be found at around 13.40 onwards.

“God, change me.  I don’t want to be this way.”

God smothers him with peace and love and tells “him to stop fighting it, David, stop trying to be straight.  Stop trying to pray the gay away. You are supposed to be happy the way you are. (I am paraphrasing)”

”But I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake.”

God- “Go do what you think are mistakes.  You are allowed to make mistakes.  But as you do this, you will come to realize it is not a mistake after all”.  

That answer to prayer, he says, is what made everything turn around for him.

David then goes in to meet with an apostle.

“David, we just need to find you a good girl”, he says.

The disconnect is palpable.  David recalls his hours of conversations with different leaders about his struggles in not knowing how to belong in the church and feeling suicidal.  He then recounts sharing his personal revelation with an apostle.  He would get a blanket statement, “you’re not gay.  You are struggling with same sex attraction and if you get married God will help you overcome your feelings.”

”That is harmful”, David states, and “not realistic for me”.  “I tried it 3 times in different engagements.”

He talks about the Mormonandgay websites, and how many of the “they can do it and so can you” examples are later found on other podcasts stating that they are suicidal and that it wasn’t realistic.   He talks about the false narrative of the church in hiding, or at least not addressing, all of this while still promoting the “they can do it so can you” one sided mantra.

He talks about how the church tried to make him into a false narrative too by setting him up as an example of a faithful LGBTQ person who is going to choose to remain single, while knowing that wasn’t true - knowing he wanted to be married.  He states “I feel like I am being taken advantage of at this point and I don’t want to lead other people astray who are suffering the same way I was.”

For me, it is not at all hard to understand why he chose to leave.

 

Edited April 7, 2024 by pogi

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

“God, change me.  I don’t want to be this way.”

God smothers him with peace and love and tells “him to stop fighting it, David, stop trying to be straight.  Stop trying to pray the gay away. You are supposed to be happy the way you are. (I am paraphrasing)”

”But I’m afraid I’ll make a mistake.”

God- “Go do what you think are mistakes.  You are allowed to make mistakes.  But as you do this, you will come to realize it is not a mistake after all”.  

That answer to prayer, he says, is what made everything turn around for him.

David then goes in to meet with an apostle.

“David, we just need to find you a good girl.”  

The disconnect is palpable.  David recalls his hours of conversations with different leaders about his struggles in knowing how to belong and feeling suicidal.  He then recounts sharing his personal revelation with an apostle.  He would get a blanket statement, “you’re not gay.  You are struggling with same sex attraction and if you get married God will help you overcome your feelings.”

”That is harmful”, David states, and “not realistic for me”.  “I tried it 3 times in different engagements.”

He talks about the Mormonandgay websites, and how many of the “they can do it and so can you” examples are later found on other podcasts stating that they are suicidal and that it wasn’t realistic.   He talks about the false narrative of the church in hiding, or at least not addressing, all of this while still promoting the “they can do it so can you” one sided mantra.

He talks about how the church tried to make him into a false narrative too by setting him up as an example of a faithful LGBTQ person who is going to choose to remain single, while knowing that wasn’t true - knowing he wanted to be married.  He states “I feel like I am being taken advantage of at this point and I don’t want to lead other people astray who are suffering the same way I was.”

For me, it is not at all hard to understand why he chose to leave.

 

Our leaders need to learn to listen better to lgtbq+ members and to engage with them from their perspective.  Pointing to "single forever" or "heterosexual marriage" as the answers to their suffering is so short sighted. 

[smac97]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

*looks at the length of the post I am responding to*

This is silence?

No.  This is me not assenting to your censorious proclivities.

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

Surgical procedures sometimes have complications! The secret reality the medical world doesn’t WANT YOU TO KNOW!

"Surgical procedures."  The form of eugenics that dares not speak its name.

Eugenics and the practice of transgendering children

Quote

The practice of eugenics is returning to contemporary Australia in the treatment of transgendered children.

With the cooperation of the Family Court, children as young as ten are being put on puberty delaying drugs after being diagnosed with “gender identity disorder” or “gender dysphoria”.

There is the expectation that they will be moved onto cross-sex hormones at 16 and receive surgery to amputate their genitals at 18.

Taking from the past

There are similarities between the eugenic sexual surgeries and drug treatments of the past and the transgendering of children now.

The ideas for both treatments come from scientists of sex such as biologists, endocrinologists and psychiatrists. Both practices are based on the idea that certain problematic behaviours have a biological basis and can be “cured” by treatments which alter sexual characteristics.

Historically, eugenics practice was directed at the control or elimination of the economic underclass, “morons”, prostituted women, criminals, gypsies, those deemed morally deficient and lesbians and gays.

The eugenic treatment of lesbians and gays in the past included surgeries such as castration, hysterectomy, vasectomy and lobotomy.

Though males seeking to be transgendered today may be attracted to women or other men, it is recognised that the women are generally lesbians before they are diagnosed as “transgender”. Professionals involved in treating gender identity disorder in childhood are aware that three quarters of the boys referred for diagnosis by their parents will be homosexual or bisexual when they reach adulthood.

A regime of transgendering children, as well as adults, shores up up a correctly gendered and heterosexual state and citizenry.

If an adult wants to sterilize himself or herself, and if he is mentally competent to consent to the medical procedure, we are still left with the ethical question here.  I think this deserves some discussion.

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

I’m done. If you aren’t going to try to understand the studies and will instead just do mass copy and pastes why should I look at it?

I don't expect you to.  I was, however, hoping that other readers might review some of the links and come to their own conclusions.

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

On the off chance you are interested in mental and physical health outcomes I would recommend looking at the meta-analyses of the data of multiple studies instead of cherry-picking and saying the data is “mixed”.

Actual debate requires facts and people who understand them. You aren’t debating. You are copy/pasting.

I pretty much never "debate" you in any meaningful sense.  You essentially never have anything substantive to say.  Just potshots, insults, and provocations.

Other readers, however, might be more open to the materials I provided.

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

So now you are just posting random articles whether they agree with you or not? Bold strategy.

As I noted previously: "We are getting lots and lots of mixed messaging about the long-term effects and efficacy of 'gender affirming care.'"

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

While you propagandize against the treatment that is helping him.

If medical treatment is ethical and worthwhile, I will either support it or be indifferent to it.

As it is, however, people like you don't want to have discussions about this topic.  You just want to shout down any viewpoint you dislike, using emotionalisms, insults and taunts.

On 4/4/2024 at 9:15 PM, The Nehor said:

Do you know what I call people who claim to sympathize with those who struggle with ADHD and wish them the best while trying to cut off or limit access to medication that improves our quality of life?

Enemies.

See?

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

No.  This is me not assenting to your censorious proclivities.

I don’t think the word “censorius” means what you think it means.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Surgical procedures."  The form of eugenics that dares not speak its name.

Eugenics and the practice of transgendering children

Well, that is an article. Who wrote this weird thing? Ah, that name sounds familiar. Should look that up and……

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Sheila Jeffreys?

LOL

Welcome to the alt-Left Smac! Well, I can’t actually welcome you since I think they are all crazy and won’t pretend I am one of them.

Sheila Jeffreys is a political lesbian. In other words she thinks women should abstain from all sexual contact with men. All of it.

She thinks transgender people are just replicating heterosexual norms and she does not see that as a good thing. She also doesn’t like regular heterosexuality. She sees transgender surgery as the equivalent of painful beauty practices women practice like leg waxing. She claims gay male culture has poisoned lesbian culture.

She has also called marriage a form of prostitution.

You know how I and some others have criticized you for only seeing things from a masculine point of view, making women’s issues about you, and passing judgment on women for holding views you think are unfair without understanding why? This woman would have done that except on steroids. She dehumanizes men and mind-reads ALL their motivations. She does the same thing to all transgender people. One of her critics described her movement as full of: "anti-intellectualism, emphasis on innate knowledge, fetishisation of tiny ideological differences, heresy hunting, conspiracy theories, rhetorical use of images of disgust, talk of stabs in the back and romantic apocalypticism.”

Here is what she thinks of gender:

“Radical feminist theorists do not seek to make gender a bit more flexible, but to eliminate it. They are gender abolitionists, and understand gender to provide the framework and rationale for male dominance. In the radical feminist approach, masculinity is the behaviour of the male ruling class and femininity is the behaviour of the subordinate class of women. Thus gender can have no place in the egalitarian future that feminism aims to create.”

She wants to abolish it. Mandatory non-binary status for all!

“The opposite of heterosexual desire is the eroticising of sameness, a sameness of power, equality and mutuality. It is homosexual desire.”

Homosexual Superiority!

“The bonding of women that is woman-loving, or Gyn/affection, is very different from male bonding. Male bonding has been the glue of male dominance. It has been based upon recognition of the difference men see between themselves and women, and is a form of the behaviour, masculinity, that creates and maintains male power… Male comradeship/bonding depends upon energy drained from women.”

Male bonding is vampiric and sucks energy from women.

“Male supremacy is centered on the act of sexual intercourse, justified by heterosexual practice.”

Heterosexual sex itself destroys any hope of men and women being equal.

She is nuts!!!! Oh wow, you sure can pick them smac.

Now on to the article:

“There is the expectation that they will be moved onto cross-sex hormones at 16 and receive surgery to amputate their genitals at 18.”

That is not anything like a universal transgender journey or even desire. Then again she thinks transgender men are lesbians who want a male body so they can get women. She is not playing with a full deck.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

If an adult wants to sterilize himself or herself, and if he is mentally competent to consent to the medical procedure, we are still left with the ethical question here.  I think this deserves some discussion.

It does but you aren’t discussing it. You are posting article dumps.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't expect you to.  I was, however, hoping that other readers might review some of the links and come to their own conclusions.

They probably know how to use Google.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

I pretty much never "debate" you in any meaningful sense.  You essentially never have anything substantive to say.  Just potshots, insults, and provocations.

Untrue, you rarely respond to my rebuttals of your article dumps. You just dump more articles. You aren’t discussing. I end up rebutting other people. I am the one actually engaging.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Other readers, however, might be more open to the materials I provided.

Hopefully I pointed out the folly of that.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

As I noted previously: "We are getting lots and lots of mixed messaging about the long-term effects and efficacy of 'gender affirming care.'"

On the one hand we have the majority of the developed world’s medical and psychiatric establishment and on the other hand we have insecure men who are weirdly afraid of drag shows and anything that blurs masculinity and femininity joining hands with alt-left loonies who consider heterosexual sex an oppressive evil and want to abolish gender completely. So who can know who we should trust? A lot of mixed messaging if you trust all messages equally. /s

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

If medical treatment is ethical and worthwhile, I will either support it or be indifferent to it.

I don’t think you will. I think that even if the entire medical establishment unanimously agreed that gender-affirming medicine was ethical and worthwhile you would still reject it on religious grounds. Don’t pretend you are weighing the evidence on this. You’re not. You are looking for supporters for a viewpoint you already hold.

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

As it is, however, people like you don't want to have discussions about this topic.  You just want to shout down any viewpoint you dislike, using emotionalisms, insults and taunts

As I said you don’t actually discuss these issues. I don’t shout you down. I shoot down your message. You don’t defend it. You just go back to repeating your position without addressing anything others say and go on posting articles about things you don’t understand.

I love discussing these issues. I don’t need to shout you down. I actually understand (to an extent) the topic we are discussing.

Quote

See?

Yeah, no. You don’t get to propagandize against medical care that helps people and whine that people who desperately want or need said care and the loved ones of those who want or need said care and then get weird over how those people don’t think you are their friend or ally or that they aren’t ‘respecting your position’ or something. Grow up.