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David Archuleta's new single about he and (some in?) his family leaving the Faith


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4 hours ago, smac97 said:

If you can show me the word that "Romans, Greeks, etc." had to describe the "sexual identities" we now call gay, lesbian, etc., please do so.

I don't think you will be able to do that. 

That was kind of my point. 

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have said nothing about conversion therapy, nor have I endorsed it, nor do I now endorse it.

You have actually said and quoted a lot about it.  

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Reasonable minds can disagree about such things.

Ok, then provide me some evidence other than anecdotes (especially where other anecdotes easily contradict your observations) and wishful thinking.

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Unfortunately, discussions about homosexuality often end up defaulting to rote accusations of bigotry. 

It is just hard when other sexual sin isn't confronted with the same shaming recommendations of "setting aside" their identities.   Instead, they are told to look to God and be submissive/subordinate to Him.   It seems you have a biased place for gay people (I am not ashamed to say it) in your heart in how your view and treat their identities that is not the same for heterosexuals.

Edited by pogi
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24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Finite, one for every human. There are some generalizations within those identities that make up the acronyms.

This. Thank you, precisely expressed imo. 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am pretty sure he was just labeling the behavior as described and not giving you an identity which has much more to it than just not forming sexual attractions till you are emotionally attached to someone (I think the world would be a much happier place if we could all function this way, lol.  So much fewer complications.). That is how I read it. It would be foolish to psychoanalyze someone’s sexual identity or lack thereof from a few lines without much context.  But I may be wrong. He may be assigning an identity for a reason I didn’t think of. 

I was indeed using it as an adjective and descriptor not an identity. I’m white, but I don’t view that as part of my identity. If I was raised in an area that persecuted my for my skin color? You bet it would be part of my core identity. I’m 5’ 10”. Height isn’t a core identity for me either though. If I was extremely short? Couldn’t date because of it? You bet it would be an identity marker. I’m cis gendered, male, and heterosexual. I grew up with two parents graduated from college with no debt. I’m pretty much the walking definition of privilege in this country. It seems ludicrous to me to begrudge others not similarly situated who have any of these characteristics as core to their identity. It’s not because they are steeped in a sexual culture it’s because of persecution at the hand of the privileged. 

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11 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I was indeed using it as an adjective and descriptor not an identity. I’m white, but I don’t view that as part of my identity. If I was raised in an area that persecuted my for my skin color? You bet it would be part of my core identity. I’m 5’ 10”. Height isn’t a core identity for me either though. If I was extremely short? Couldn’t date because of it? You bet it would be an identity marker. I’m cis gendered, male, and heterosexual. I grew up with two parents graduated from college with no debt. I’m pretty much the walking definition of privilege in this country. It seems ludicrous to me to begrudge others not similarly situated who have any of these characteristics as core to their identity. It’s not because they are steeped in a sexual culture it’s because of persecution at the hand of the privileged. 

It is like zodiac signs…at least in American mainstream culture.  Every now and then I run into someone who doesn’t know theirs or want to know.  Some (most?) people seem to simply think of their birth day when asked their astrology/horoscope/star sign even if they check out horoscopes for fun.  Some others might see it as actually associated with their personality.  Fewer probably see it as a signifier of their fate (me being Scorpio, I am more likely to be murdered or executed, so I have been told).

It is not a one size fits all label.  People use labels differently.  I tend to assume it’s shorthand for behavioural descriptions because most people like shortcuts.

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51 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is like zodiac signs…at least in American mainstream culture.  Every now and then I run into someone who doesn’t know theirs or want to know.  Some (most?) people seem to simply think of their birth day when asked their astrology/horoscope/star sign even if they check out horoscopes for fun.  Some others might see it as actually associated with their personality.  Fewer probably see it as a signifier of their fate (me being Scorpio, I am more likely to be murdered or executed, so I have been told).

It is not a one size fits all label.  People use labels differently.  I tend to assume it’s shorthand for behavioural descriptions because most people like shortcuts.

It’s been my experience the degree to which someone identifies with an adjective is directly proportional to the amount of information we can glean about a person from the descriptor. While I identify as a husband and father first and foremost, I would have to say that exmormon is really high on the list. That single word given to others gives them a ton of information about how I was raised, and what my current outlook on life now likely is. Everyone is an individual and should be treated as such, but when we describe our lives some words can do a lot more work than others. 

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37 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s been my experience the degree to which someone identifies with an adjective is directly proportional to the amount of information we can glean about a person from the descriptor. While I identify as a husband and father first and foremost, I would have to say that exmormon is really high on the list. That single word given to others gives them a ton of information about how I was raised, and what my current outlook on life now likely is. Everyone is an individual and should be treated as such, but when we describe our lives some words can do a lot more work than others. 

Sexual identities also help with the important question:

Should I flirt with and/or ask this person out or not?

You could argue that this was the first utility of these identities.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Sexual identities also help with the important question:

Should I flirt with and/or ask this person out or not?

You could argue that this was the first utility of these identities.

Well sure. I guess all I'm saying is that if a male introduced themselves as a Latter-day Saint, that would trigger all types of associations and assumptions on my part. If they were to add that they were heterosexual, my mental model of them would not change very much. If they said they were a gay Latter-day Saint that, however, would upend a lot of my presuppositions. 

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3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Well sure. I guess all I'm saying is that if a male introduced themselves as a Latter-day Saint, that would trigger all types of associations and assumptions on my part. If they were to add that they were heterosexual, my mental model of them would not change very much. If they said they were a gay Latter-day Saint that, however, would upend a lot of my presuppositions. 

Definitely. I just think finding partners was the primary impetus behind creating sexual identities. The rest came later.

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Brother Brigham:

"...to gather the Saints, to preach the Gospel to the world, and convince them of the truth, are much easier tasks than to convince men that you can master yourself, and practice the moral principles inculcated by your religion." (JD 1:8)

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Music Times published a new interview with Archuleta that sheds quite a bit of light on several of the comments, accusations, and conjecture that's been discussed in this thread:

Quote

David Archuleta on Controversial Coming-Out Song ‘Hell Together’: ‘If This Is Causing a Bit of a Stir, So Be It … If It Saves Someone's Life’

By Lyndsey Parker
Apr 01, 2024 06:04 PM EDT
David Archuleta, then and now. (Photo : Shaun Vandella) David Archuleta, then and now.
When David Archuleta became an overnight American Idol sensation at age 17, he also became a default "ambassador," like it or not, for the Church of Latter-day Saints, in which he had been raised his entire life. So, when he made the high-profile decision to come out as LGBTQ+, and eventually leave the church, at age 30 — after years of trying to come to terms with his sexuality and, like many closeted LDS kids, even considering taking his own life — he feared a public backlash to the bombshell announcement. But he was even more concerned about how his devout mother might react.
 
Much to Archuleta's surprise and relief, his mother, Lupe Marie Batholomew, told him, "I don't want to be somewhere that my children don't feel they're accepted and loved. So, if you're going to Hell, we're all going to Hell with you." In a show of solidarity, she even chose to leave the Mormon faith as well. That experience inspired Archuleta's brand-new, gospel-tinged anthem, "Hell Together," in which he croons, "If I have to live without you/I don't wanna live forever/In someone else's Heaven/So let 'em close the gates."

While much of the response from  Archuleta's fans, friends, and peers to "Hell Together" — and to his coming-out journey in general — has been positive, the singer admits to Music Times that "a lot of people [in the Mormon community] have been upset with my song coming out. But you know what? I'm just telling my story about what my mom said to me. I'm not teaching doctrine here! ... Even though I've said I've left the church, people still look at me as this ambassador for the church that I grew up in. I'm trying to make a point that that's not my responsibility anymore. I'm a different person now. ... It's not my job to represent the church. I already said I walked away from it. And they're like, 'Well, then stop talking about it!' But how can I not talk about something that was a part of my life?"

 

Three years after coming out, Archuleta still "can't shut up" about his truth. And he won't shut up — because, as he notes, "I was never told to be quiet about what I believe," plus he knows his story might help others in the church who are struggling. "That's why I say if this [song] is causing a bit of a stir, so be it, because I think it needs to happen," he asserts. "If I can make it visible and if I take a bunch of blows for it, then I'm totally fine. I'm prepared for it and it's fine, if it saves someone's life because they feel like they can exist and they can be seen. ... I think this song is helping create that space, and I'm glad."

David's forthcoming, sure-to-be-page-turning memoir will delve even deeper in the life stories that he is currently telling through song, but in the meantime, the recent GLAAD Media Award winner and Queerty Award nominee candidly speaks with Music Times about "Hell Together"; the current Archuleta family dynamic; and how he's finally living his truth, living his best life, and experiencing the adolescent freedom he never got to enjoy before. And for you fans of American Idol's famous David-vs.-David season, there's even a cute Idol in-joke. Hell yes!

I love the new song "Hell Together." I love the story behind it. What was the initial conversation with your mother that inspired it?

 

DAVID ARCHULETA: I announced that I was stepping away from the church... after being a very public figure in the church, which is why I felt it was [important] to let people know. People were still associating with me and looking up to me, which is why it was such a big shock, including to my family and to my mom. I didn't hear from her for a few days, so I thought, "Oh, she must be really upset." But then when she texted me back finally, she said, "Hey, I've decided to step away from the church as well," which was totally unexpected. My mom was very devout. She was very faithful, even when I was not going to church anymore. If I was visiting Utah at her home on Sunday, she'd be like, "Hey, do you want to come to church with us?" But it got to a point where I just said, "Mom, I'm just going to stay home." And so for her, for that to be the first thing she says after I've announced it, I was just like, what? And that's when she said, "I don't want to be somewhere that my children don't feel they're accepted and loved. So, if you're going to Hell, we're all going to Hell with you." I thought that was really sweet.

The Mormons, Latter-day Saints, they're trying to go through a "rebranding," so there's not necessarily a Hell in the sense that most Christian religions look at it. It's not like this place of burning and fire. It's just kind of like tiers: There's a higher glory of Heaven, a middle glory of heaven, and then a lower glory of heaven. And they're all supposedly good, but you're not at the top one...

That kind of sounds like VIP sections at a concert.

Yeah, like you're still able to enjoy the concert, but one of them is in the very tip-top of the stadium, the other one's in the midsection, and then the other one's up front-row-center. So, it's different experiences, and it's actually very much like that [concert analogy], because the VIP sections can go up and visit the people in the back, but the people in the back can't come up and visit the people in the front. They don't have access. And that's very much how the Heaven is that Latter-day Saints believe, so there's still a separation of family. So, a lot of people have been upset with my song coming out. But you know what? I'm just telling my story about what my mom said to me. I'm not teaching doctrine here! I'm not teaching church doctrine to everybody. I was inspired because what my mom told me touched me, and that's literally what she said. So, I wrote a song about it.

 
 

I'm curious about the rest of your family. Obviously you come from a religious family in general, and obviously they were grappling with the idea that you were leaving the church. And now your mother, the matriarch of the family, is doing the same. How did they react to her making such a bold move?

I feel like everyone just was surprised as well, but in a pleasant way, I guess. I think we were all just like, "Is Mom OK? We don't want her to do anything irrational. We know this is really important to her." We just wanted to make sure she was really doing something that she felt was right for her as well. And now looking back, it really was a positive thing for her in her life, just like it was for each of us as we each decided to step away from the church. Because at this point, no one in my family practices the religion anymore.

 

David Archuleta in 2024. (Photo : Nick Spanos) David Archuleta in 2024.

 

 

You mentioned that you've had mixed reactions to "Hell Together" — some, I assume, quite positive, but then other people have been angry about it. Can you tell me about both sides? What arguments are you getting as a reaction to the song?

I was actually thinking about making a response on a TikTok, so I could just clarify to people. I was literally thinking about it this morning just to kind of be like, "Hey, I know there are mixed opinions, but I'm telling my story." This is part of the point that I'm trying to make to people — that even though I've said I've left the church, people still look at me as this ambassador for the church that I grew up in. I'm trying to make a point that that's not my responsibility anymore. I'm a different person now. I'm just talking about the changes that I have that I've grown. This is my personal experience I'm talking about. I had never had a drink of alcohol before. This is what a drink of one cup of coffee does to me. And I used to wear the undergarments before and now I don't. And it feels weird sometimes, but these are things that are so normal for everyone else, but it wasn't for me. And a lot of people in the church that I grew up in, they're like, "How dare you talk about this in such a disrespectful way!" And I'm like, "Well, why do you feel like it's disrespectful? This is my life I'm talking about, and you're peering into my life." I think they feel like, "You're misrepresenting what we all believe in the church." It's not my job to represent the church. I already said I walked away from it. And they're like, "Well, then, stop talking about it!" But how can I not talk about something that was a part of my life?

I was working on my book this morning and talking to the editor I've been working with, and she was like, "It's like someone saying you can't talk about your ex after a divorce. You've been married to them for 30 years and now you can't talk about them anymore. It doesn't really make sense. It was such a big part of your life, but it also affects who you're becoming now." But if it's shaking the conversation up, especially in Utah... I was looking at the numbers of my new song and the biggest percentage of where people are listening to it is in Salt Lake City, by a huge margin, and then all these other places within Utah. And I know it's causing a lot of conversation. I wasn't expecting it to have that much of a conversation, but so be it. That's what needs to happen, because this is a conversation that everyone has avoided having. I made a point about it on my Instagram where someone was like, "Why can't you just leave, and leave quietly?" Just basically saying, "Shut up and don't talk about it anymore." But I was told all my life to talk about it. I can't just shut off. I was told I need to always talk about what I'm going through and what I believe. And just because what I believe has changed doesn't mean that I shut off. I was never told to be quiet about what I believe, and that's what Mormons taught me. So, it's really: "Be quiet if the majority of us don't like what you're saying."

But it's like, the LGBT experience is a minority, but it affects a certain percentage of the population. I think there are more out there that would [like to] feel comfortable opening up about it, because it's still not safe to open up about it. There are a lot of people, whether they're gay, whether they're bisexual, whether they're pansexual, who don't have a space to talk about that, because everyone's like, "Just shut up, because we want to keep our heteronormative view of things." I can't shut up about it, because you're not going to listen to anyone else who's in your own church buildings going through this, and they don't feel safe to talk about it, to be vulnerable, to share their experience, because you don't make it a safe space for them if you just dismiss them. Even if they have the courage to [talk about it], they're dismissed. That's why I say if this is causing a bit of a stir, so be it, because I think it needs to happen. And if I can make it visible and if I take a bunch of blows for it, then I'm totally fine. I'm prepared for it and it's fine, if it saves someone's life because they feel like they can exist and they can be seen. I think we all just want to be seen and understood, and for other people to understand us. So, I think this song is helping create that space, and I'm glad.

It's interesting that because you were such a public figure, you were thought of as an "ambassador" for the Mormon church. Do you now feel a responsibility be an ambassador of sorts for people who've left the church?

I guess that's unintentionally happened. I didn't have the strategy of this is why I'm releasing this song. It was just like, my mom said this to me it really touched me, I want to write a song about it, and let's go from there.

How did she react to "Hell Together"?
We had had a heavy conversation, before I showed it to her, about family. I was actually trying to understand a little bit more about our family history for the book I'm writing. And she was so worn-out about it. She was like, "I'm just used to moving on. I don't really like to think about things that happened in the past." And I'm like, "This is still affecting all of your kids! Things that you've been able to move on, your kids haven't been able to." And that was really hard for her. And then after that heavy conversation I had her over for dinner, and I was like, "Hey, Mom, remember when you sent this text to me? I wanted to show this song to you." I think she was just so drained that she wasn't fully there to really comprehend what the song was saying. She was just like, "Yeah, it sounds good."

That's it?

Yeah. And I'm like, "Wait, wait, remember when you said this to me? I wrote it off of that!" She's like, "Oh, OK." [laughs] But now that she's been able to sit with it and look at the lyrics, I've seen her posts and she was like, "I've been in tears playing this song for hours on repeat. This is so touching for me."

Is this song, or your coming-out journey in general, drumming up any trauma your mother has suppressed about her own life?

I don't know. I feel like my experience is different from my mom's, so I don't know. I feel like she is processing a lot. She talks about it in her social media posts. She says, "I'm reconstructing what faith is for me," what Jesus means for her and all these things. And I feel like I've deconstructed a lot more about religion. I've separated myself a lot more from religion than she even has. So, I guess it's different for both of us, but she is still trying to make sense of it. She's trying to find her sense of community. But what's so interesting is my mom has connected with people so much more now that she has left her religion than when she was in it. ... I think it was just always hard for us to personally connect with people on a human level at church. ... Once she was able to leave and find herself again and who she was without having to put up this front of, "I'm a good member of the church, I read my scriptures every day, I pray, I go to church, I say hi to the other brothers and sisters there, check if they need anything, and then I go home" — and then she's drained and exhausted — I think she's able to connect with people by truly being herself.

It seems like you're living your best life right now. I follow you on social media. I see how you've had this glow-up, always in some fabulous outfit, attending all these cool events, winning awards.

It's really fun. I feel like I relate to what I was saying about my mom, like it's OK to be myself. I didn't know what that was exactly. So, now it's time for me, instead of, "Am I behaving in a way that will get approval from my church leaders?" or "Am I behaving in a way that get approval from my dad, or from my parents in general?" I was always looking for approval from other people to be OK. Now I can try a more flashy outfit and not be like, "Oh, but that's not modest!" I used to think that way: "That's immodest" or "That's not appropriate." Or, "If I say this, then I'm not being the example that I was told I'm supposed to be." Things like that. I can just be whoever the hell I want to be.

You were on American Idol when it was one of the biggest shows on TV. Was that hard for you — being in the public eye and adored by all these Archies, but you didn't actually like yourself? How did you deal with that, then and now?

Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. It was hard for me to enjoy an experience when you don't know yourself and you don't like yourself. Everything else could be happening around you externally, but when you're not OK inside, it's hard to process everything. It's hard to enjoy everything because even if there are good things happening to you, you don't feel like you deserve them. That was a really hard thing for me to get through, for that very reason. And a lot of the people around me... a lot of people referred to just my dad [Jeff Archuleta, who was David's manager], but there were other people externally during that time that try to make sure that you stay in a way that you don't like yourself, so that you're easier to be whatever they want you to be. I feel now I'm in a place where I'm so used to being told what to do, it's hard for me to be OK being the one calling the shots and deciding who I'm going to be. It's very uncomfortable, but it's also very freeing experience. It's hard to be OK with making mistakes, and it's a lot to process, but it's also a beautiful time. I feel like it's a time where I can really, truly grow.

The next song I'm releasing does deal with a lot of the internal struggle of being OK with yourself after. [coming out] Sometimes I'm like, 'Oh, 'Hell Together' is such a triumphant song; do I want to release this next song that's more vulnerable and not as triumphant?" I wrote it before "Hell Together," so I was in a slightly different place as well. But I do want to release it just as Mental Health Awareness is coming up in a couple months. I write about the whole process and trying to figure myself out and learning how to be OK with yourself and feeling like you deserve love and feeling like you deserve to be happy. That's what this next song talks about — how it's difficult to accept that sometimes. It's just another thing that I just want to get out. I like the song and I want people to hear it.

I can't wait to hear it, and to read your memoir when it comes out next year. I am sure your book will cover a lot of your time on American Idol. It was an interesting era, because no one was really out on Idol then. Now now we have openly gay contestants. We've had a trans contestant on this current season. Have you ever thought about how that experience on Idol would've been different, either better or worse, if you'd been living your truth all that time?

I haven't thought about it, because for me, that was the truth I knew at the time. I wasn't aware of my sexuality the way I am now. I was still young. I grew up very religious. And at the time, even then, it wasn't talked about. Prop 8 was going on. My church was very vocal about being not supporting Prop 8, not supporting gay marriage in California. It was just a very different dynamic for the whole topic, and that's just the time I grew up in, so that's the time I lived. I guess I would be a completely different person if I was being raised in my teenage years right now. But I just have no idea what it would be like.

Have you ever wished you came out sooner? Maybe you were still figuring it out and you came out at the right time for you in the end, but now that you're living such a wonderful life and seem really happy, do you ever think, "Man, I should have done this five years earlier," or anything like that?

Sometimes I think, "Oh, man, I could have had that experience with other people around me at the same time," experiencing the growth that everyone goes through in high school, junior high, college — this time of life where you're just exploring and discovering yourself and discovering other people and what life has to offer. But I mean, that's what I'm doing now! I feel like it's a little delayed, so it's not with my peers necessarily, but in that sense I feel like it keeps me young. It's kind of weird: When I was younger, I felt older than I am now, because I was a lot more dutiful. I was a lot more disciplined. I was just about business and work. It wasn't about having fun. And now I'm kind of backtracking. I can have fun, and it's OK to have fun, and I'm enjoying it and discovering myself. I just feel like it's slightly different in order.

You still look so young, not that different from your Idol years, even if you're 33 now.

A lot of people that I'm meeting, they'll think I'm in my twenties, and that helps me enjoy without people being like, "Wait, why are you here having fun? Why are you out here on the dance floor? Why are you here at the festival? You're too old to be here!" [laughs] People don't say that, so I'm glad that I can just blend in. I'm just there to have a good time and enjoy and experience this for my first time, just like a lot of other people are. People on the dance floor and at festivals are of all ages too, but it's just nice to be partying hard and people aren't like, "Wow, that old guy's being weird over there!" Or maybe they are, and they just haven't said it! [laughs]

I'm sure not, but who cares if they do?

Right. I'm having the time of my life, as David Cook said famously.

This Q&A has been edited for brevity and clarity. Watch David Archuleta's full video conversation with Music Times in the split-screen video above.

If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988, text "STRENGTH" to the Crisis Text Line at 741741 or go to 988lifeline.org.

 

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On 4/2/2024 at 5:05 PM, The Nehor said:

I am familiar with it. If you think this weakens us legally what took down the Jim Crow laws in the courts is that there was no strict mechanism for determining who was black and who was not. Yet we still recognize race...

The pushback for the T is because it threatens a lot of what some people hold to be self-evident but isn’t substantiated. The whole anti-transgender movement will suffer as it becomes clear that gender doesn’t have any strict boundaries and is a spectrum.

I seldom comment on topics like this because so many others here are so much more articulate and knowledgable than I, and/or can speak from first-hand lived experience. 

I think the "spectrum" paradigm is correct. 

I recall from biology [edit: or psychology] class that there are SIX biological genders.  Two of them everyone here is familiar with.  Here are the other four:  Physiology male, endocrine system female; Physiology female, endocrine system male; Both; and Neither.  My understanding is that something in the range of one in ten or twenty thousand live births is one of these other four genders.  While these six biological genders are not quite what the word "spectrum" implies, they do refute the "biological gender is binary" argument.  Four out of the six biological genders being non-binary, it is not hard to imagine there being perfectly valid gender identities which do not fit the traditional binary construct. 

My lived experience is more that of an observer than a participant.  Two of my three children are transgender, and in retrospect it was obvious all along with my son, though I didn't recognize it at the time.  With my daughter I totally did not see it coming, though my wife (her step-mother) perceived "female energy" in her from the first time they met, nearly two decades before my daughter began to express a female gender identity.  So with both of my trans gender children, their innate gender identity it was probably there all along.

For my fellow straight adult males, including @smac97:  Among us there is a spectrum we have all encountered:  The macho spectrum.  While it is easier to express as more macho if you are physically powerful, it's certainly not a requirement.  And we all know many boys and men who are physically powerful yet not inclined to express as particularly macho.  So it's a spectrum that is not dictated by the physical; it's not binary; it's not just "macho dudes" and "wimps".   I would guess that most of us are probably somewhere towards the middle of the macho spectrum, sort of like a bell curve, and most of us have a circle of inclusion that extends to either side of where we are on this spectrum.  I'm not saying the parallels line up exactly.  But our lived experience having been that innate machismo is non-binary, and our lived experience on the macho spectrum being at least somewhat inclusive, maybe this precedent can make it easier for us to expand our circle of inclusion to those whose gender identity falls in a different place on the spectrum than our own.

Edited by manol
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1 minute ago, manol said:

I seldom comment on topics like this because so many others are so much more articulate than I, and can speak from first-hand lived experience.  I think the "spectrum" paradigm is correct. 

So do I, relative to sexual attraction.  

1 minute ago, manol said:

I recall from biology class that there are SIX biological genders.  Two of them everyone here is familiar with.  Here are the other four:  Physiology male, endocrine system female; Physiology female, endocrine system male; Both; and Neither. 

Could you provide a citation for this?

Also, is "gender" synonymous with "sex" in your view?

1 minute ago, manol said:

My understanding is that something in the range of one in ten or twenty thousand live births is one of these other four genders.  While these six biological genders are not quite what the word "spectrum" implies, they do refute the "biological gender is binary" argument. 

I respectfully disagree.

The use of "gender" in this context can sometimes create some equivocation and ambiguity.  I think it is more accurate to state that biological sex is binary.

I previously linked to an article by Andrè Van Mol, MD which addresses people with DSD ("intersex") conditions, and I do so again here: Intersex: What It Is And Is Not

The article includes disorders of sexual development (DSD), sometimes also referred to as "intersex," and which some use to attempt to argue against the sexual binary.  An excerpt:

Quote

The nomenclature “intersex” acknowledges something between two sexes and not a third sex. The term is intersex and not “extrasex,” therefore acknowledging the binary nature of human sex. Biological sex rarely may be phenotypically unclear in a given individual, but this does not represent a third one.

Evolutionary biologist Colin Wright rejects the “sex is a spectrum” mantra with clear reasoning: “a spectrum implies a continuous distribution, and maybe even an amodal one (one in which no specific outcome is more likely than others). Biological sex in humans, however, is clear-cut over 99.98 percent of the time.” Dr. Wright continues, “any method exhibiting a predictive accuracy of over 99.98 percent would place it among the most precise methods in all the life sciences. We revise medical care practices and change world economic plans on far lower confidence than that.”

"Intersex" is not a sex.  Nor is it synonymous with "Gender Dysphoria."  There is a substantial difference between these two conditions.

Quote

Intersex/DSD is Not Gender Dysphoria or Trans-identification
Intersex is not a subjective ideation. There is always an objective underlying medical origin. The DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria criteria states: “Specify if: With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder such as 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivity syndrome).” Intersex is what they mean, and it is different than gender dysphoria.
...

Intersex/DSD is Rare
Wildly inflated claims of the prevalence of DSD are common, but untrue. Dr. Leonard Sax exposed the source of some of this in his article, “How common is intersex.” Dr. Sax writes that Anne Fausto-Sterling asserted in her 2000 book Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality that intersex totaled 1.7 percent of human births. However, Sax shows that she included in her calculations common conditions having nothing to do with DSD. Dr. Sax notes that congenital adrenal hyperplasia and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are the most common DSDs, which is in keeping with the previously stated DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria specification. Dr. Sax concludes that DSD/Intersex, “far from being ‘a fairly common phenomenon,’ is actually a rare event, occurring in fewer than two out of every 10,000 births.”

Similarly, a 1992 Danish study found their rate of “testicular feminization syndrome” to be 1:20,400. A 2001 Dutch study stated their rate of androgen insensitivity syndrome “with molecular proof of the diagnosis is 1:99,000.”

And a 2016 Danish study examining all their known 46XY karyotype females (androgen insensitivity syndrome) born since 1960 found the prevalence at 6.4 per 100,000 live born females. Intersex/DSD is rare.

Thoughts?

1 minute ago, manol said:

Four out of the six biological genders are arguably non-binary, so it is not hard to imagine there being perfectly valid gender identities that do not fit the traditional binary construct. 

I agree.  "Gender identity" is an endlessly malleable social construct, not science/biology (such as is the case with the sexual binary).

1 minute ago, manol said:

My lived experience is more that of an observer than a participant.  Two of my three children are transgender, and in retrospect it was obvious all along with my son, though I didn't recognize it at the time.  With my daughter I totally did not see it coming, though my wife (her step-mother) perceived "female energy" in her from the first time they met, nearly two decades before my daughter began to express a female gender identity.  So with both of my trans gender children, their innate gender identity it was probably there all along.

Okay.

1 minute ago, manol said:

For my fellow straight adult males, including @smac97:  Among us there is a spectrum we have all encountered:  The macho spectrum.  While it is easier to express as more macho if you are physically powerful, it's certainly not a requirement.  And we all know many boys and men who are physically powerful yet not inclined to express as particularly macho.  So it's a spectrum that is not dictated by the physical; it's not binary; it's not just "macho dudes" and "wimps".   I would guess that most of us are probably somewhere towards the middle of the macho spectrum, sort of like a bell curve, and most of us have a circle of inclusion that extends to either side of where we are on this spectrum.  Our lived experience having been that innate machismo is non-binary, and our lived experience on the macho spectrum being at least somewhat inclusive, maybe this precedent can make it easier for us to expand our circle of inclusion to those whose gender identity falls in a different place on the spectrum than our own. 

I think we still need to recognize the reality of the sexual binary.  And not conflate it with "gender dysphoria," "gender identity," DSD, etc.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Could you provide a citation for this?

I took biology between four and five decades ago.  I don't remember the textbook.  So no, I cannot provide a citation for my recollection. 

Edit:  Now that I think about it, it was probably an introductory psychology class.  I remember the illustrations in the text. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Also, is "gender" synonymous with "sex" in your view?

"Biological gender" is synonymous with "biological sex" in my view.   But I'm not about to debate semantics with a lawyer. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Thoughts?

Of course I understand the difference between biological gender/biological sex/intersex and gender identity. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think it is more accurate to state that biological sex is binary.

Then which binary biological sex are each of the following individuals:  Physiology male, endocrine system female; Physiology female, endocrine system male; Both; and Neither?

Perhaps even more important in the context of religion, The Family Proclamation states:  "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." (emphasis mine)

In your opinion, and in the context of the LDS religion, what is the gender of each of these people described above?  (And if your answer is something like "we don't know at this time", that is a perfectly valid answer.)

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think we still need to recognize the reality of the sexual binary.  And not conflate it with "gender dysphoria," "gender identity," DSD, etc.

I disagree with the premise in your first sentence, and with your implication in the second. (Not arguing with your perceptions, just making sure my disagreement ["objection, your honor"?] is on the record.) 

So, how do you feel about my invitation to expand your circle of inclusion?

Edited by manol
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1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Music Times published a new interview with Archuleta that sheds quite a bit of light on several of the comments, accusations, and conjecture that's been discussed in this thread:

 

I have never really listened to David sing till I hit play on the song. He has an incredible voice. It is to bad the and LDS person who becomes famous. The church is all but happy to exploit their fame, whether an actor, musician, athlete and so on. But step away and hoo boy, they become a son or daughter of perdition.

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7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Brother Brigham:

"...to gather the Saints, to preach the Gospel to the world, and convince them of the truth, are much easier tasks than to convince men that you can master yourself, and practice the moral principles inculcated by your religion." (JD 1:8)

ZealouslyStriving seems to have transformed into a veritable fountain of pithy quote-mining.

Edited by ttribe
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20 minutes ago, ttribe said:

ZealouslyStriving seems to have transformed into a veritable fountain of of pithy quote-mining.

 

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I was wondering what the relevance was here.

Maybe we should start a Brigham Young quote thread where everyone can feel free to share all of his greatest hits...

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