Women leaders ordered off the stand

[JAHS]

Hs this been a common practice to have the local women leaders sit on the stand during Sunday services?
Apparently it has been in Northern California, but not anymore.

From the Trib:

‘A slap in the face’: LDS Relief Society leaders ordered off the stand
Area president puts an end to this Bay Area tradition. Many women are asking: Why?
It seemed like such a simple act of inclusion.
Having female Relief Society leaders sitting on the stand facing the pews during Latter-day Saint Sunday services has been a noncontroversial tradition among some
congregations in the San Francisco Bay Area for a decade or more.
But to many women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the public
presence of women, sitting side by side with male ecclesiastical authorities, sent a
powerful signal they were an important and essential part of the community’s
leadership.

Apparently, though, even that small symbol was too much for some of the faith’s male
leaders.
Last month, the practice was abruptly discontinued at the order of the North America
West Area president, whose jurisdiction includes California, according to church
spokesperson Doug Andersen.
The Utah-based faith “has a long-established practice when it comes to worship
services,” Andersen says. “The general pattern includes presiding authorities sitting on
the stand along with other women, men, youth and children based on their invitation to
participate in the service.”
Local leaders, Andersen says, “were recently reminded of this practice.”
The heartbreaking edict, Latter-day Saint observers in the region say, was handed down
to male leaders without any input from the women affected or explanation for the
change.
There is nothing in the church’s General Handbook barring female officials from the
stand and many wonder why women are allowed to sit with men in cushy seats on the
platform at General Conference but not at the local level.
In response, members in at least three stakes (regional clusters of congregations]
surrounding San Francisco have expressed their concerns to lay bishops and stake
presidents, while also conducting surveys and launching a letter-writing campaign to
church headquarters in Salt Lake City.
 

[Peppermint Patty]

They really should let the women remain on the stand. Especially if it makes the women in those Stakes feel more empowered and included. I've said my peace.

[Pyreaux]

The Area President did this? I guess he's got the authority to dictate this, I suppose he's keeping uniformity in the churches. I also suppose this may elevate this issue, the growing pains of progress. This local custom not forbidden by a rule might become church wide if overturned.

[let’s roll]

Inviting the RS President or YW President to share a brief testimony at the beginning or end of the meeting would allow them to sit on the stand during the meeting consistent with the revised policy.  And, on occasion, the EQ President could receive the same invitation.

[JustAnAustralian]

Quote

At a Latter-day Saint service to install a new three-man bishopric she recently attended, “there were 38 men on the stand, including the entire [stake] high council, both old and new bishoprics, stake presidency and all of the sacrament blessers and passers.”

This seems strange to me. I don't think I've ever seen our full high council on the stand at the same time. I rarely see more than one on the stand at the same time, and that's when two of them happen to be giving talks. I definitely don't recall ever seeing the sacrament passers on the stand.

As far as the women on the stand in the bay area. It'd be interesting to know the history, since based on the article it looks like it's survived multiple bishops, stake presidents, area seventies, and general authorities (as area presidents).

The Area President has been in place since 2021, so there must have been something that suddenly triggered this.

Edited November 25, 2023 by JustAnAustralian

[Calm]

Quote

The general pattern includes presiding authorities sitting on
the stand along with other women, men, youth and children based on their invitation to
participate in the service.”

Isn’t there only one person presiding at a time?

Quote

The presiding officer may conduct the meeting….

The bishop presides at sacrament meeting unless a member of the stake presidency, an Area Seventy in his area, or a General Authority attends. If the bishop and his counselors are not able to attend sacrament meeting, the stake president designates who presides.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/29-meetings-in-the-church?lang=eng

There are counselors who say nothing all meeting, but just sit there (unless it is their turn to conduct).  Seems like sitting on the stand is participating in the service if they are somehow just presiding by being present, so inviting anyone to sit on the stand is essentially inviting them to participate.

I think if others got to know who the RS Presidency were, they would be more comfortable going to them for help, which imo, is very important.  
 

I hope feedback over this changes things because I do think it’s important for leaders to be visible.  When I was in Primary, I often had no clue who the RS Presidency were and only knew the name of the RS President, but not her face.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Calm

[Thinking]

I wonder if there was an EQ president who questioned why he wasn't invited to sit on the stand...

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

When I was in Primary, I often had no clue who the RS Presidency were and only knew the name of the RS President, but not her face.

You didn't attend ward leadership meetings?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

I wonder if there was an EQ president who questioned why he wasn't invited to sit on the stand...

Typically in the absence of the bishop, the EQ President should be on the stand, sitting with the bishopric as another leader presence, kind of non verbally demonstrating "Yeah, the bishop is out of town, but we still have everything covered"

[Diamondhands69]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You didn't attend ward leadership meetings?

I served about ten years total in primary. Never heard of “ward leadership meeting.” Is that for all primary teachers or just the presidency?

[Buckeye]

11 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I served about ten years total in primary. Never heard of “ward leadership meeting.” Is that for all primary teachers or just the presidency?

It’s called ward council. All ward organizations, including primary, are expected to have an officer attend. Most often it’s the organization president but counselors often fill in for the president. 

[Diamondhands69]

16 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

It’s called ward council. All ward organizations, including primary, are expected to have an officer attend. Most often it’s the organization president but counselors often fill in for the president. 

Ward council.. of def heard of that.
 

Ok so for a regular primary teacher ( blazers) they would not be invited.. right? That’s about 90+% of primary workers not invited. Thank goodness though. I was in sub school presidency and what a waste that meeting was in our ward. Good gossip though if you are in to that kind of thing. 

[Buckeye]

I have a reputation on this board of strong support for expanding women’s participation including ordination. In this case, I would caution that in-depth discussion with the local women’s leaders needs to happen in order to get the practice right. I personally know women leaders who would be uncomfortable with a local male leader deciding to invite the RS president (or presidency) to sit on the stand during sacrament meeting for reasons including:

1) Sitting a leader on the stand to be seen with no authority or purpose is literally ‘putting her on a pedestal’ 

2) Why just the RS President? If the purpose is to show support for women’s leaders why exclude YW and Primary?

3) If you include all women’s leaders, why not also men’s leaders? The more women on the stand with no purpose the more this appears as tokenism 

4) If you do include all women and men leaders pretty soon half the ward is on the stand. Might as well form a choir at that point  

5) Some women have family responsibilities during sacrament that would be challenged by putting them on the stand (think young children and older family members to care for)

6)  Some women just don’t want to sit where they’re more visible and possibly criticized (think jokes about high councilors falling asleep) 

7) Some women may think the practice wrong (because they don’t have any purpose or authority on the stand during sacrament) and may feel contention against other sisters who they see as pushing this practice 

8 ) In most wards there already are women on the stand and one of them literally has “leader” in her title - the ward music leader and accompanist. Does this practice downplay their roles as leaders? 
 

In closing, I’ll just note that I’ve had to sit on the stand for well over a decade now due to ward and stake leadership positions. It’s one of my least favorite parts of the callings. I’d much rather sit with my family. I expect most women will feel the same when called into bishoprics or the high council some day. 

And I wouldn’t assume the regional church leaders are acting without input of some sisters. They may well have heard from women leaders who don’t appreciate the practice. 
 

There can be a lot of disagreement on women’s roles in the church. The one thing I think we can all agree with is that women’s voices are paramount in deciding where women should sit. 

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Ward council.. of def heard of that.
 

Ok so for a regular primary teacher ( blazers) they would not be invited.. right? That’s about 90+% of primary workers not invited. Thank goodness though. I was in sub school presidency and what a waste that meeting was in our ward. Good gossip though if you are in to that kind of thing. 

Right. It’s just for leaders.  Teachers don’t attend. 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

Hs this been a common practice to have the local women leaders sit on the stand during Sunday services?
Apparently it has been in Northern California, but not anymore.

From the Trib:

‘A slap in the face’: LDS Relief Society leaders ordered off the stand
Area president puts an end to this Bay Area tradition. Many women are asking: Why?
It seemed like such a simple act of inclusion.
Having female Relief Society leaders sitting on the stand facing the pews during Latter-day Saint Sunday services has been a noncontroversial tradition among some
congregations in the San Francisco Bay Area for a decade or more.
But to many women in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the public
presence of women, sitting side by side with male ecclesiastical authorities, sent a
powerful signal they were an important and essential part of the community’s
leadership.

Apparently, though, even that small symbol was too much for some of the faith’s male
leaders.
Last month, the practice was abruptly discontinued at the order of the North America
West Area president, whose jurisdiction includes California, according to church
spokesperson Doug Andersen.
The Utah-based faith “has a long-established practice when it comes to worship
services,” Andersen says. “The general pattern includes presiding authorities sitting on
the stand along with other women, men, youth and children based on their invitation to
participate in the service.”
Local leaders, Andersen says, “were recently reminded of this practice.”
The heartbreaking edict, Latter-day Saint observers in the region say, was handed down
to male leaders without any input from the women affected or explanation for the
change.
There is nothing in the church’s General Handbook barring female officials from the
stand and many wonder why women are allowed to sit with men in cushy seats on the
platform at General Conference but not at the local level.
In response, members in at least three stakes (regional clusters of congregations]
surrounding San Francisco have expressed their concerns to lay bishops and stake
presidents, while also conducting surveys and launching a letter-writing campaign to
church headquarters in Salt Lake City.
 

Yet another outstanding example of objective journalism from this newspaper!

[Rain]

9 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

This seems strange to me. I don't think I've ever seen our full high council on the stand at the same time. I rarely see more than one on the stand at the same time, and that's when two of them happen to be giving talks. I definitely don't recall ever seeing the sacrament passers on the stand.

As far as the women on the stand in the bay area. It'd be interesting to know the history, since based on the article it looks like it's survived multiple bishops, stake presidents, area seventies, and general authorities (as area presidents).

The Area President has been in place since 2021, so there must have been something that suddenly triggered this.

Yes, I've never seen that done before. Even with ward conference you don't have the whole high council sitting up there.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by Rain

[Rain]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

You didn't attend ward leadership meetings?

"When I was in primary' doesn't mean just the primary presidency. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The Area President did this? I guess he's got the authority to dictate this, I suppose he's keeping uniformity in the churches. I also suppose this may elevate this issue, the growing pains of progress. This local custom not forbidden by a rule might become church wide if overturned.

I think us locals could use a few moments in the Book of Mormon:

3 Nehpi 12: 1-2 outline the general duties of those to whom the Lord gave power to baptize (and later other ordinances and official functions -- See 3 Nephi 18 and Moroni 6).

Moroni 6 (notably verse 9, where verses 2 onward describe the jobs of those highlighted in verse 1). This chapter follows four others outlining the doctrinal duties of these officers. 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The Area President has been in place since 2021, so there must have been something that suddenly triggered this.

  

Edited November 25, 2023 by CV75

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

I have a reputation on this board of strong support for expanding women’s participation including ordination. In this case, I would caution that in-depth discussion with the local women’s leaders needs to happen in order to get the practice right. I personally know women leaders who would be uncomfortable with a local male leader deciding to invite the RS president (or presidency) to sit on the stand during sacrament meeting for reasons including:

1) Sitting a leader on the stand to be seen with no authority or purpose is literally ‘putting her on a pedestal’ 

Yes, this would need discussion. Obviously the  the conducting leader needs to be there. (The presiding does not even though we think he does - President Monson sat with his wife when she was well enough to attend). So sometimes you have extra leaders up there - the other counselor, sometimes the bishop if someone from the stake presidency is there.  So why are the extra people there? Those reasons could go with why someone from the RSP would be there.

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

2) Why just the RS President? If the purpose is to show support for women’s leaders why exclude YW and Primary?

This can go to the why as well.  Is it to show support for the women’s leaders or is it to show women they are represented and listened to? Why, besides the one conducting are the men there?

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

3) If you include all women’s leaders, why not also men’s leaders? The more women on the stand with no purpose the more this appears as tokenism 

Again, why needs to be figured out.

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

4) If you do include all women and men leaders pretty soon half the ward is on the stand. Might as well form a choir at that point  

5) Some women have family responsibilities during sacrament that would be challenged by putting them on the stand (think young children and older family members to care for)

Except for breast feeding this doesn't work for me.  No one worries about that with fathers of young children.

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

6)  Some women just don’t want to sit where they’re more visible and possibly criticized (think jokes about high councilors falling asleep) 

This like the last one affects men as well.

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

7) Some women may think the practice wrong (because they don’t have any purpose or authority on the stand during sacrament) and may feel contention against other sisters who they see as pushing this practice 

Yep, goes back to the why.

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

8 ) In most wards there already are women on the stand and one of them literally has “leader” in her title - the ward music leader and accompanist. Does this practice downplay their roles as leaders? 

Does leader have a different role than president or bishop? I would assume they do.  In sacrament meeting the leader doesn't even pick the songs. The music coordinator does with the bishops approval.  Though the primary music leader picks the songs.  

I don't know, but knowing that would also help with the why. 

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

In closing, I’ll just note that I’ve had to sit on the stand for well over a decade now due to ward and stake leadership positions. It’s one of my least favorite parts of the callings. I’d much rather sit with my family. I expect most women will feel the same when called into bishoprics or the high council some day. 

And I wouldn’t assume the regional church leaders are acting without input of some sisters. They may well have heard from women leaders who don’t appreciate the practice. 
 

There can be a lot of disagreement on women’s roles in the church. The one thing I think we can all agree with is that women’s voices are paramount in deciding where women should sit. 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Rain

[Buckeye]

36 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, I've never seen that done before. Even with ward conference you don't have the who high council sitting up there.  

In my stake visiting high councilors sit in the stand because they’re in the ward to give a talk and/or conduct stage business. When they’re in their home ward with business to conduct they sit with their families. 

[Buckeye]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, this would need discussion. Obviously the  the conducting leader needs to be there. (The presiding does not even though we think he does - President Monson sat with his wife when she was well enough to attend). So sometimes you have extra leaders up there - the other counselor, sometimes the bishop if someone from the stake presidency is there.  So why are the extra people there? Those reasons could go with why someone from the RSP would be there.

This can go to the why as well.  Is it to show support for the women’s leaders or is it to show women they are represented and listened to?

Again, why needs to be figured out.

Except for breast feeding this doesn't work for me.  No one worries about that with fathers of young children.

This like the last one affects men as well.

Yep, goes back to the why.

Does leader have a different role than president or bishop? I would assume they do.  In sacrament meeting the leader doesn't even pick the songs. The music coordinator does with the bishops approval.  Though the primary music leader picks the songs.  

I don't know, but knowing that would also help with the why. 

 

Thanks Rain. Certainly some of these factors can cut  multiple directions depending on the member’s situation. I know some women with young children who would love to sit away from them for just an hour during sacrament. At the same time, I know one EQ president for whom the highlight of his week is to sit with his young grandkids during sacrament. If he were instructed to sit on the stand to show he’s a ward leader he would do so but it would hurt him a lot. 

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

In my stake visiting high councilors sit in the stand because they’re in the ward to give a talk and/or conduct stage business. When they’re in their home ward with business to conduct they sit with their families. 

My husband does for talks. For "business" he does till he has done his part and then he sits with me.  

But the quoted article said in one meeting "the entire [stake] high council" sat on the stand.  I've never seen that happen.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Rain

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

I wonder if there was an EQ president who questioned why he wasn't invited to sit on the stand...

Rather than questioning it he was probably feeling like he dodged a bullet.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You didn't attend ward leadership meetings?

She wouldn’t as a teacher.