Women leaders ordered off the stand

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Ward council.. of def heard of that.
 

Ok so for a regular primary teacher ( blazers) they would not be invited.. right? That’s about 90+% of primary workers not invited. Thank goodness though. I was in sub school presidency and what a waste that meeting was in our ward. Good gossip though if you are in to that kind of thing. 

They haven’t had blazers for decades, so if that was the era that you were last in a ward council meeting, things are a lot different now.  Thankfully. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

I have a reputation on this board of strong support for expanding women’s participation including ordination. In this case, I would caution that in-depth discussion with the local women’s leaders needs to happen in order to get the practice right. I personally know women leaders who would be uncomfortable with a local male leader deciding to invite the RS president (or presidency) to sit on the stand during sacrament meeting for reasons including:

1) Sitting a leader on the stand to be seen with no authority or purpose is literally ‘putting her on a pedestal’ 

2) Why just the RS President? If the purpose is to show support for women’s leaders why exclude YW and Primary?

3) If you include all women’s leaders, why not also men’s leaders? The more women on the stand with no purpose the more this appears as tokenism 

4) If you do include all women and men leaders pretty soon half the ward is on the stand. Might as well form a choir at that point  

5) Some women have family responsibilities during sacrament that would be challenged by putting them on the stand (think young children and older family members to care for)

6)  Some women just don’t want to sit where they’re more visible and possibly criticized (think jokes about high councilors falling asleep) 

7) Some women may think the practice wrong (because they don’t have any purpose or authority on the stand during sacrament) and may feel contention against other sisters who they see as pushing this practice 

8 ) In most wards there already are women on the stand and one of them literally has “leader” in her title - the ward music leader and accompanist. Does this practice downplay their roles as leaders? 
 

In closing, I’ll just note that I’ve had to sit on the stand for well over a decade now due to ward and stake leadership positions. It’s one of my least favorite parts of the callings. I’d much rather sit with my family. I expect most women will feel the same when called into bishoprics or the high council some day. 

And I wouldn’t assume the regional church leaders are acting without input of some sisters. They may well have heard from women leaders who don’t appreciate the practice. 
 

There can be a lot of disagreement on women’s roles in the church. The one thing I think we can all agree with is that women’s voices are paramount in deciding where women should sit. 

You’ve mirrored my thoughts and concerns as well. 

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, I've never seen that done before. Even with ward conference you don't have the whole high council sitting up there.  

I’ve been in one stake that had all the stake leaders sit on the stand during ward conference, including all the women leaders. At no other time and no other stake have I ever seen that done. 

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

They haven’t had blazers for decades, so if that was the era that you were last in a ward council meeting, things are a lot different now.  Thankfully. 

I’m aware of the blazer thing being long gone.  That was my primary calling g and I was never in those meetings. The original response suggested the primary teacher should have been. They are not invited. 
 

what part of ward council meeting is different? The gossiping still gets trafficked around. I know who the projects are in the ward and why and I am not in any sort of leadership position. I dont even ask and I hear it. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[CA Steve]

If I were the bishop, I'd make sure the RS president had some sort of announcement to make in Sac Mtg every week.

[MustardSeed]

My understanding is that the area authority explained that women on the stand creates too much chaos. I will get a reference if requested. 
 

when my husband was in the Bishopric, and the Bishop and other counselor was out of town, Husband had elders quorum president and RS President sit with him. 
 

no chaos.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

She wouldn’t as a teacher. 

Duh.

Misunderstanding.

I should have known, my wife had the same problem in a new ward.

☹  sorry @Calm

 

[BRMC]

So, who's on the stand then?  Bishopric and speakers?  Isn't that normal?

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My understanding is that the area authority explained that women on the stand creates too much chaos. I will get a reference if requested. 
 

when my husband was in the Bishopric, and the Bishop and other counselor was out of town, Husband had elders quorum president and RS President sit with him. 
 

no chaos.  

Yeah, I think that AA goofed.

On the other hand, we are talking about SAN FRANCISCO here.

😳

Edited November 25, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

If 2 leaders have children, who takes care of the kids while both are on the stand?

Just bring the kids too!  That is bound to make sacrament talks far more entertaining !  Just sit back and watch the fun!

 

[Diamondhands69]

Why does anyone even care about being up on the stand anyway? All it means is you have more headaches at church (and during the week) than the commoner member. 

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, BRMC said:

So, who's on the stand then?  Bishopric and speakers?  Isn't that normal?

Today, there IS no "normal" ! 😉

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Why does anyone even care about being up on the stand anyway? All it means is you have more headaches at church (and during the week) than the commoner member. 

And even worse, you see EVERYTHING 😉

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

So, who's on the stand then?  Bishopric and speakers?  Isn't that normal?

That's the norm most everywhere, except in this Bay area region apparently. There may be a few other places where the Stake President might also do it differently in his wards, but that's on his own volition.

[MustardSeed]

37 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Why does anyone even care about being up on the stand anyway? All it means is you have more headaches at church (and during the week) than the commoner member. 

Why in the world would anybody want to be in a leadership position? You just have to do more work.
 

Why would anybody want to be on an HOA? Everyone hates you and it’s just a lot of work.

 

Why would anybody want to be a referee at a sporting event? There’s no glory and hardly any pay.

 

I know. Let’s just make sure women don’t do any of those things.

 

Me personally, I don’t wanna sit on the stand and me personally, I don’t want to be a leader and me personally, I don’t want to sit in on meetings, and provide my point of view. But I certainly don’t like to be told that I don’t qualify simply because I’m a girl. 
 

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

All it means is you have more headaches at church (and during the week) than the commoner member. 

It's the altitude.  Being up on the stand is generally about three or four feet higher than the seats in the pews.

Edited November 25, 2023 by InCognitus

[BRMC]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t want to sit in on meetings, and provide my point of view. But I certainly don’t like to be told that I don’t qualify simply because I’m a girl. 
 

And you aren't.  Women are important leaders in the church.  They participate in meetings, hold their own meetings, and provide their point of view.

[MrShorty]

58 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Why does anyone even care about being up on the stand anyway? All it means is you have more headaches at church (and during the week) than the commoner member. 

I would agree, and to take @MustardSeed's comment in a different direction, I sometimes wish I would have known back in the day when I was ordained that I could turn down ordination so that I would never be eligible for these callings in the church.

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

It's the altitude.  Being up on the stand is generally about three or four feet higher than the seats in the pews.

I didn't like sitting up at the front facing the sisters in Relief Society much when in the presidency. But think it's important only if you span the audience and somehow see if someone is struggling or sad or something. So having the women on the stand as well as the men might be a good thing, then there's more eyes and understandings on those in the pews.

[MustardSeed]

21 minutes ago, BRMC said:

And you aren't.  Women are important leaders in the church.  They participate in meetings, hold their own meetings, and provide their point of view.

Ok. 
Church is the only place where I’m told I can’t do things because I’m a girl. 

[MustardSeed]

How would men, boys have experienced themselves, life and church differently if they only ever saw women on the stand? 

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, BRMC said:

And you aren't.  Women are important leaders in the church.  They participate in meetings, hold their own meetings, and provide their point of view.

Not to mention that EVERY calling, for men OR women,  comes with the priesthood authority to do your duties within the calling - from the prophet to the greeter!

The bishop especially has to keep his eye on that handbook, it's not like he does "anything he wants" and everyone else is oppressed

Honestly I have no clue why anyone would WANT to be a bishop and I used to be one!

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not to mention that EVERY calling, for men OR women,  comes with the priesthood authority to do your duties within the calling - from the prophet to the greeter!

The bishop especially has to keep his eye on that handbook, it's not like he does "anything he wants" and everyone else is oppressed

Honestly I have no clue why anyone would WANT to be a bishop and I used to be one!

But who is saying they want to be one?

There is a difference between wanting to be one and being allowed to be one.

[BRMC]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ok. 
Church is the only place where I’m told I can’t do things because I’m a girl. 

Men and women have different roles.  There are positions women hold that I can't.  There are things in life that women can do but I can't.  Nature has an order.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You didn't attend ward leadership meetings?

I was a teacher.