Women leaders ordered off the stand

[BRMC]

4 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Marc, it’s poor form to cite an entire chapter and then avoid discussion because others didn’t guess you point correctly. If you have a point, please state it. I’m all ears. 

I don't want to speak for him, but this was covered in our studies this year.  My assumption is that is what he was referencing, particularly that unity is not sameness.  The lesson speaks to all brothers and sisters.   Come Follow Me

[Mark Beesley]

47 minutes ago, Rain said:

The desire for recognition is a problem for both men and women. The drive for some to keep church practices may also be for the purposes of personal recognition.  This really has nothing to do with what the Lord wants from the church, but from people being imperfect in either situation.

With regard to the bolded portion of your observation, I can only speak for myself, but my only desire is to let the Lord order His Church according to His Will and timetable. I neither want nor expect any recognition for being obedient and submissive to the Lord. Trust in the Lord will dispel every grievance, real or imagined, of unfairness in the Church.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

With regard to the bolded portion of your observation, I can only speak for myself, but my only desire is to let the Lord order His Church according to His Will and timetable. I neither want nor expect any recognition for being obedient and submissive to the Lord. Trust in the Lord will dispel every grievance, real or imagined, of unfairness in the Church.

I would hope we could get out of His way so He can show us better ways to operate than our very human and limited scope allows. 

[Buckeye]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

I would hope we could get out of His way so He can show us better ways to operate than our very human and limited scope allows. 

Respectfully, I don’t think the lesson to learn in this life is to get out of God’s way. We’re supposed to become like Him (Them) by wrestling ourselves with competing principles, supporting what we judge is good, discussing in councils and with God those judgments, and repenting (changing course) as He guides us. The process doesn’t work if we just passively sit and wait for direction. We are to be doers. 

[Mark Beesley]

11 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Marc, it’s poor form to cite an entire chapter and then avoid discussion because others didn’t guess your point correctly. If you have a point, please state it. I’m all ears. 

1 Corinthians 12 is a good chapter to cite when someone asks why I assert that the current cultural drive towards sameness is not divinely inspired, which was the genesis of my citation. It clearly teaches that not all receive the same spiritual gifts, and thus have different abilities. You took one phrase out of context and posed a nonsensical question, but I demonstrated poor form by not engaging? 

Ordination to the priesthood is not a spiritual gift. It is a temporal act, and all men are ordained because that is the order the Lord established. That answers your question. 
 

 

[Buckeye]

2 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

1 Corinthians 12 is a good chapter to cite when someone asks why I assert that the current cultural drive towards sameness is not divinely inspired, which was the genesis of my citation. It clearly teaches that not all receive the same spiritual gifts, and thus have different abilities. You took one phrase out of context and posed a nonsensical question, but I demonstrated poor form by not engaging? 

Ordination to the priesthood is not a spiritual gift. It is a temporal act, and all men are ordained because that is the order the Lord established. That answers your question. 
 

 

Thanks. I see your point now, but as you acknowledge, ordination is not a spiritual gift. So why do you cite this chapter for opposing women’s ordination? I’m waiting on a citation that ordaining only men is the ‘order the Lord established’. Spoiler alert, there isn’t such a scripture. 

[BRMC]

1 minute ago, Buckeye said:

Thanks. I see your point now, but as you acknowledge, ordination is not a spiritual gift. So why do you cite this chapter for opposing women’s ordination? I’m waiting on a citation that ordaining only men is the ‘order the Lord established’. Spoiler alert, there isn’t such a scripture. 

No, but there has been definitive statements from our Priesthood Leaders.  People have lost their membership for pushing this issue because it goes against "the laws and order of the Church".  

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Respectfully, I don’t think the lesson to learn in this life is to get out of God’s way. We’re supposed to become like Him (Them) by wrestling ourselves with competing principles, supporting what we judge is good, discussing in councils and with God those judgments, and repenting (changing course) as He guides us. The process doesn’t work if we just passively sit and wait for direction. We are to be doers. 

I agree with all of this.  
I think it’s clear that what I am saying is that I dont personally believe that the way we do things is necessarily Gods way. (If I wasn’t clear before.)

[MustardSeed]

Women’s ordination will never happen IMO. 

[Rain]

55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So you want to be able to reject the calling when you get it?

 

So is that how you feel when you are given a calling?

Why should it be any different?

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree with all of this.  
I think it’s clear that what I am saying is that I dont personally believe that the way we do things is necessarily Gods way. (If I wasn’t clear before.)

Definitely. We don’t even have a good sense of the size of the gulf, much less how to bridge it. 

[Buckeye]

11 minutes ago, BRMC said:

No, but there has been definitive statements from our Priesthood Leaders.  People have lost their membership for pushing this issue because it goes against "the laws and order of the Church".  

I haven’t seen any definitive statements. I do recall statements that ordination wouldn’t be expanded to men with African blood until all men without such blood had a chance to be ordained. That teaching proved false. 
 

There may be some (dated) statements from a leader here or there about women’s ordination, but nothing from the united FP/Q12 saying it will never happen. Only those united bodies have the authority to give a definitive statement. And of course, a key principle of the restoration is that future prophets and apostles are not bound by deceased ones. 

[Mark Beesley]

10 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Thanks. I see your point now, but as you acknowledge, ordination is not a spiritual gift. So why do you cite this chapter for opposing women’s ordination? I’m waiting on a citation that ordaining only men is the ‘order the Lord established’. Spoiler alert, there isn’t such a scripture. 

Again, I cited the chapter in response to a query as to why I asserted that the drive towards sameness is not divinely inspired.

As to women being ordained, as I stated earlier, I have nothing against it personally. But, I know that Joseph was the Lord’s prophet of the restoration, and the order of the Church he established by revelation included ordaining only men to the offices of the priesthood.  I also know that President Nelson is called of God to preside over His Church now, and the order established earlier by Joseph continues. Now, whether the reservation of the priesthood to the male membership is a matter of practice or doctrine may be argued, I suppose. But just as it was with the earlier priesthood ban as affecting our members with African heritage, any change needs to come by revelation.  And I am not a fan of seeking to force revelation through activism because of my earlier observation.

[Rain]

41 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

With regard to the bolded portion of your observation, I can only speak for myself, but my only desire is to let the Lord order His Church according to His Will and timetable. I neither want nor expect any recognition for being obedient and submissive to the Lord. Trust in the Lord will dispel every grievance, real or imagined, of unfairness in the Church.

Speaking for yourself as you say.

I cannot judge others who feel as you do or hope that women may be on the stand, but I recognize that there will be some on both sides feeling pride and some on both sides trusting the Lord.

[Mark Beesley]

45 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I would hope we could get out of His way so He can show us better ways to operate than our very human and limited scope allows. 

That is kind of why He has a prophet presiding over His Church. Now, if the activists would just get out of the way . . . 😇

[Mark Beesley]

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Women’s ordination will never happen IMO. 

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine.

If there is a pathway for female priesthood ordination in the Lord’s Church, it will happen.

[BRMC]

21 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I haven’t seen any definitive statements. I do recall statements that ordination wouldn’t be expanded to men with African blood until all men without such blood had a chance to be ordained. That teaching proved false. 
 

There may be some (dated) statements from a leader here or there about women’s ordination, but nothing from the united FP/Q12 saying it will never happen. Only those united bodies have the authority to give a definitive statement. And of course, a key principle of the restoration is that future prophets and apostles are not bound by deceased ones. 

Like I said, people have lost their membership recently for pushing ordination of women.  Those letters that have been made public contain recent statements.  That isn't to say it will never happen, but it has been made clear that trying to convince people it should isn't in line with Heavenly Father's chosen leaders.

Edited November 25, 2023 by BRMC

[JAHS]

49 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Thanks. I see your point now, but as you acknowledge, ordination is not a spiritual gift. So why do you cite this chapter for opposing women’s ordination? I’m waiting on a citation that ordaining only men is the ‘order the Lord established’. Spoiler alert, there isn’t such a scripture. 

President Dalin Oaks, a prophet of God, said “The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood.” (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Keys and Authority of the) Priesthood,” Liahona, May 2014, 51.

D&C 1: 38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

So what President Oaks said is as good as scripture for now, until God tells us differently.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

I agree that most would feel this way, but I believe we all know that one member who craves authority.

They would be the kind who thought sitting on the stand gave them more authority somehow. 

[MustardSeed]

26 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

That is kind of why He has a prophet presiding over His Church. Now, if the activists would just get out of the way . . . 😇

I respectfully disagree with the suggested notion that the prophet is a perfect representation of all Gods positions, or that we are just pawns in Gods game without our agency marring opportunities. 
 

And I have no doubt that my sins are a significant contribution to what we lack. 

[JLHPROF]

54 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Women’s ordination will never happen IMO. 

I think it will.

But it will be our societal culture that brings it about.  God won't alter his pattern.

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I’m aware of the blazer thing being long gone.  That was my primary calling g and I was never in those meetings. The original response suggested the primary teacher should have been. They are not invited. 
 

what part of ward council meeting is different? The gossiping still gets trafficked around. I know who the projects are in the ward and why and I am not in any sort of leadership position. I dont even ask and I hear it. 

Very sad. That’s never been my experience. My RS president won’t even tell us everything that is discussed in ward council, not when it pertains to a sister in the ward, and I’m in the RS presidency. 

[BRMC]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Very sad. That’s never been my experience. My RS president won’t even tell us everything that is discussed in ward council, not when it pertains to a sister in the ward, and I’m in the RS presidency. 

This has been my experience as well.

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I respectfully disagree with the suggested notion that the prophet is a perfect representation of all Gods positions

But he's all we have for now. What else would you suggest we do? 

[Buckeye]

21 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Dalin Oaks, a prophet of God, said “The Lord has directed that only men will be ordained to offices in the priesthood.” (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Keys and Authority of the) Priesthood,” Liahona, May 2014, 51.

D&C 1: 38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

So what President Oaks said is as good as scripture for now, until God tells us differently.

Yes, but Oaks doesn’t cite a source. He’s not saying God told him or a prophet not to ordain women. There’s no such record anywhere in scripture or church history. What he’s conveying (sincerely I believe) is his understanding that the restriction is divinely directed. But again, he has no source for that. So this statement is of little weight. 

Prior leaders also thought the racial restriction (no African men ordained until all men without African blood had an opportunity) was divinely directed only to change their view when a greater light was shown. 
 

And D/C 1:38 doesn’t turn church leaders into God or deem all their words as scripture. What it does is instruct that God may work through His servants and that He adopts their acts when done in the course of their authority and His direction. But, again, it doesn’t mean every statement or direction by a leader binds God. Leaders make mistakes all the time. Hence all things are ratified in the church by commmon consent. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Buckeye