Article Re: Mental Health of Latter-day Saints

[pogi]

23 hours ago, helix said:

 

Thanks for breaking this down

23 hours ago, helix said:

Utah's had 2.25x increase between 2011 through 2014, then decreased.

I'm not seeing the decrease you are referring to after 2014.  In fact, there is a significant increase from 2014 onward that is well above average for years recorded before 2014.  It only dips below 9 once after 2014.

23 hours ago, helix said:

Colorado has a roughly similar trend as Utah. A doubling between 2007 and 2015, and theirs appears to be increasing afterward.
South Dakota has a 2.5x spike between 2014 and 2019
Georgia's spiked 1.8x between 2011 and 2017
Idaho had a 2x spike between 2005 and 2007
Illinois had a 1.9x spike between 2013 and 2017
Oklahoma had a 2.4x spike between 2007 and 2019
Iowa had a big spike between 2014 and 2017
Minnesota's had a 2.4x spike between 2008 and 2017
New Mexico had a 2.4x spike between 2013 and 2017

I am coming in really late to this conversation so maybe it has been addressed, but I'm not sure how or why you are selecting different years and ranges for different states.   In Idaho, you are only showing a 2 year time span, while in Oklahoma you are showing a 12 year time span in order to capture a similar sized spike.  How do we know you aren't cherry picking different years and time spans just like you are accusing the Salt Lake Tribune of doing? 

23 hours ago, helix said:

You've got to go usually at least 10 years to start meaningfully comparing 15-19 year olds across states.

I agree, which is why I am confused as to why you are showing time spans well under that for almost every state except one (Oklahoma).  

[helix]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

How do we know you aren't cherry picking different years and time spans just like you are accusing the Salt Lake Tribune of doing? 

That's exactly my point. I'm showing that momentary spikes aren't interesting. The 3x increase among 10-17 youth was one of the worst cases.

The other takeaway is that comparing suicide stats over a year or a few year period among states is a bad idea. You've got to see trends over about 10+ years before what you say is meaningful.

As as sort of related side note, this horrifically bad paper by Benjamin Knoll used these momentary spikes to push a misleading thesis: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Knoll4902.pdf

I just don't like seeing people abuse suicide statistics to prove their point. Momentary spikes are one of the easiest and most manipulative ways to do it.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I'm not seeing the decrease you are referring to after 2014.  In fact, there is a significant increase from 2014 onward that is well above average for years recorded before 2014.  It only dips below 9 once after 2014.

That was for the CDC's 15-19 year age range. The CDC likes to work with 5 or 10 year age ranges, so I pulled up the 15-19 year age group, as that one is much easier to compare across states than the 10-17 year age range.

Edited June 24, 2023 by helix

[helix]

17 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

And here you go. The data displayed is for 2020, taken from the CDC data

Statista ignored Alaska, South Dakota, and Montana. They're higher.

17 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Why, when I google Utah Mental Health, is the first article in my search results this? How can we pat ourselves on the back while we see articles like this one?

It's frustrating because one hand you're hand waving away peer reviewed scholarly journals, and on the other hand embracing drive by top 50 state news pieces from local news reporters. 

The latter isn't as helpful. For example, if I go to the KTVX link you provided, I see "Researchers used data from SAMHSA’s National Survey On Drug Use And Health to determine its rankings.". I click on that link and find SAMHSA has withdrawn its data: "State estimates for these years are no longer available due to methodological concerns with combining 2019 and 2020 data".

17 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

altitude - because other states with similar conditions aren't as high in terms of adolescent suicide rates.

But...Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska, South Dakota, Montana, Colorado, and New Mexico are all high altitude states with this problem.

This can be easily seen in this animated gif:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2018/05/suicide_gif.gif

Now it could be something about being rural. Or maybe it's something about hills (strangly the Ozarks and hills in Appalachia are showing these trends). But generally high altitude correlates with suicide while coastal regions do not.

17 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

what we cannot say is that the Church is having some sort of positive impact on the suicide rates

Unfortunately we don't have direct access to suicide deaths related to a person's beliefs.

But perhaps the best study so far on this topic comes from: McGraw, James & Docherty, Meagan & Chinn, Jay & Mahoney, Annette. (2021). Family, faith, and suicidal thoughts and behaviors (STBs) among LGBTQ youth in Utah.. Psychology of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity.

The authors took "relevant data extracted from the 2019 State of Utah Prevention Needs Assessment (PNA) Survey, which is conducted as part of the Student Health and Risk Prevention Statewide Survey (SHARP).", which resulted in giving them "a total
sample of 73,982 participants. M_age [median age] for the total sample was 15.2" (A few hundred of these were also dropped from the survey for various reasons)

From the result section:

"Among LGBTQ youth, non-LDS youth had higher mean levels of STBs [Suicidal thoughts and behaviors], family conflict, depressive symptoms, self-harm, substance misuse, a lower mean level of parental closeness, and were older on average than their LDS LGBTQ counterparts. Compared with non-LDS LGBTQ youth, LDS LGBTQ youth were more likely to be male, identify as White, and be in 6th or 8th grade, and were less likely to be in 10th or 12th grade or be bullied due to gender or sexual orientation. Notably, the relative percentage of LGBTQ youth who identified as being non-LDS (67%) compared with LDS (33%) was markedly higher than what is typical across all youth in Utah (i.e., 86,346: 41% non-LDS vs. 59% LDS). All group differences were significantly different at p <.001"

They also summarized results into four groups with scores (lower M is better).

The N is number, the M is median score, the SD is standard deviation. The M score for suicide risk is defined as: "Suicidal Thoughts and Behaviors (STBs). STBs were assessed using three items examining suicidal thoughts, plans, and attempts over the last 12-month period (i.e.,“during the past 12 months, did you ever seriously consider attempting suicide?,” “during the past 12 months, did you make a plan about how you would attempt suicide?,” “during the past 12 months, how many times (if any) did you actually attempt suicide?”). Items for suicidal thoughts, plans, and attempts were each dichotomized into 0 for none and 1 for any. All three item scores were summed together to create a STBs score."  The study also controls for gender, grade level, race/ethnicity, and being bullied. Ages are similar. 

While this study didn't complete the final step of associating suicidal thoughts and behaviors with actual suicide, it did show that among adolescents, the church does heavily help youth avoid suicidal thoughts and behaviors, and youth in the church demonstrate having less family conflict, depressive symptoms, self-harm, substance misuse, a higher mean level of parental closeness

Edit: The state of Utah has been engaged in a deep multi-year study trying to better understand the root causes of youth suicide. Their last update: https://le.utah.gov/interim/2021/pdf/00004073.pdf and here:

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by helix

[california boy]

17 hours ago, ksfisher said:

My experience is that, in general, we are our own harshest judges.  Most people (but, unfortunately, not all) have enough going on in their own lives that they don't spend a lot of time thinking about other peoples challenges.

I know people in my ward who've cheated on their spouses.

I know people who are gay.

I know people who struggle with the word of wisdom.

I know people who have been in rehab.

I know people who are on anti-depressants.

I also know the stupid things I've done in my life.

Our Father in Heave in a God of forgiveness, compassion, and mercy.  As we strive to live the gospel we also learn to be forgiving, compassionate, and merciful.  We're all learning and we all far short of the ideal, but we're learning.

You really think Nehor is just paranoid in thinking that if he came out people wouldn't care?  Not my reality.  Even though I was actively involved in my ward for decades including being in the bishopric, only 4 or 5 people ever talked to me again.  They. erased me like I had never existed.  

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

You really think Nehor is just paranoid in thinking that if he came out people wouldn't care?  Not my reality.  Even though I was actively involved in my ward for decades including being in the bishopric, only 4 or 5 people ever talked to me again.  They. erased me like I had never existed.  

Yes, his examples didn't address others' reactions just his.  

[pogi]

9 hours ago, helix said:

That was for the CDC's 15-19 year age range. The CDC likes to work with 5 or 10 year age ranges, so I pulled up the 15-19 year age group, as that one is much easier to compare across states than the 10-17 year age range.

The SL Tribune article is discussing the 10-17 age range.  If we are attempting to dispute the article, we need to stick with that age range and compare apples to apples.  

The average suicide rate for the age group 10-17 in Utah from 1999-2009 is 4.2, while the average rate from 2010-2020 is 8.28.   Using averages over 10 year spans, we see the rates of suicide significantly increasing in trend and in fact doubling in Utah.    While I agree that they had to cherry pick in order to show a tripling of the suicide rate, the trend upwards is accurate and concerning.  It is not decreasing. I don't know how that compares to other states or national averages, but Health Department is right to be concerned. 

 

Quote

 

Students who reported participating more frequently in religious activities and those from Bear River, Southwest, Summit, and Wasatch Health Districts had lesser risk (Table 2).

https://ibis.health.utah.gov/ibisph-view/pdf/opha/publication/hsu/SE04_SuicideEpiAid.pdf

 

I think this shows that religion does reduce risk of suicide though.  It also throws a wrench in the theory that "altitude" increases risk as Summit County has the highest elevation in Utah yet has one of the lowest suicide rates.  

 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

You really think Nehor is just paranoid in thinking that if he came out people wouldn't care?  Not my reality.  Even though I was actively involved in my ward for decades including being in the bishopric, only 4 or 5 people ever talked to me again.  They. erased me like I had never existed.  

Where did I say he was paranoid?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The SL Tribune article is discussing the 10-17 age range.  If we are attempting to dispute the article, we need to stick with that age range and compare apples to apples.  

The average suicide rate for the age group 10-17 in Utah from 1999-2009 is 4.2, while the average rate from 2010-2020 is 8.28.   Using averages over 10 year spans, we see the rates of suicide significantly increasing in trend and in fact doubling in Utah.    While I agree that they had to cherry pick in order to show a tripling of the suicide rate, the trend upwards is accurate and concerning.  It is not decreasing. I don't know how that compares to other states or national averages, but Health Department is right to be concerned. 

 

I think this shows that religion does reduce risk of suicide though.  It also throws a wrench in the theory that "altitude" increases risk as Summit County has the highest elevation in Utah yet has one of the lowest suicide rates.  

 

I've no supported facts but I think it's because of the teachings on taking your own life. At least the church has softened a lot but not sure about other faiths.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I've no supported facts but I think it's because of the teachings on taking your own life. At least the church has softened a lot but not sure about other faiths.

The data shows religion reduces risk for suicide.  

What teachings are you referring to?  We are taught that suicide is wrong.  If you are referring to the penalties in the temple, that is before my time and I’m in my 40’s.  10-17 year old kids wouldn’t even be aware of those things for the most part.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The SL Tribune article is discussing the 10-17 age range.  If we are attempting to dispute the article, we need to stick with that age range and compare apples to apples.  

The average suicide rate for the age group 10-17 in Utah from 1999-2009 is 4.2, while the average rate from 2010-2020 is 8.28.   

It's fascinating that teenage rates are usually the go-to for these things.

Other demographics have much higher suicide rates.  Like mine (middle aged male).

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

The data shows religion reduces risk for suicide.  

Am I remembering correctly that Utah, one of the most religious states, also has the highest antidepressant use?

And ranks near the bottom of mental health?

https://mhanational.org/issues/2022/ranking-states

[mfbukowski]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:49 PM, Tacenda said:

Very apt quote from reddit about the article:

“Research” is completely useless if you already have an end result in mind and ignore all things contrary that come up. That is true for every study, especially ones from the church that can’t be wrong…..

But note it says EVERY study, also tainting their own alleged "evidence".

Complete objectivity is very rare, and in my belief, it doesn't exist in the social sciences.

Just even picking a topic even in hard science, for a study, has purpose behind it.  Want to cure cancer?  Perceived dead ends lead to REAL dead ends- studies are usually dropped on new discoveries if they don't help the desired goal.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It's fascinating that teenage rates are usually the go-to for these things.

Other demographics have much higher suicide rates.  Like mine (middle aged male).

Actually - correction.  Give me a demographic and I'll find an article saying they have the highest rate.  Does anyone actually know?

Middle aged white men:  https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

Men 75 and older (elderly), not teens and young adults https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-suicide.html

Teens and young adults https://www.uclahealth.org/news/suicide-rate-highest-among-teens-and-young-adults

 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The data shows religion reduces risk for suicide.  

What teachings are you referring to?  We are taught that suicide is wrong.  If you are referring to the penalties in the temple, that is before my time and I’m in my 40’s.  10-17 year old kids wouldn’t even be aware of those things for the most part.

No, I'm agreeing with you. I believe in most religions suicide is definitely frowned upon. So I'm thinking that's why LDS suicides are less because of it.

[Benjamin McGuire]

19 hours ago, helix said:

The authors took "relevant data extracted from the 2019 State of Utah Prevention Needs Assessment (PNA) Survey, which is conducted as part of the Student Health and Risk Prevention Statewide Survey (SHARP).", which resulted in giving them "a total
sample of 73,982 participants. M_age [median age] for the total sample was 15.2" (A few hundred of these were also dropped from the survey for various reasons)

I don't have access to the article (and I am not going to shell out 20 for it). But I will say this - the underlying survey has an issue regarding religion. A quarter of the students who filled out the survey said that they had no preference/other with regard to their religion. More than 60 percent of those student who claimed to be gay/lesbian or bisexual also claimed to be in this group with no religious preference. This is a really high degree of correspondence - and it suggests that the students self-identification of religious preference casts some serious control problems on any research which starts with the religion category as a primary identifier. Does being Mormon make you that much less likely to be gay? Or does being gay make you that much less likely to self identify as Mormon? As I said, I don't have access to the article - perhaps they address this and you can share?

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

You really think Nehor is just paranoid in thinking that if he came out people wouldn't care?  Not my reality.  Even though I was actively involved in my ward for decades including being in the bishopric, only 4 or 5 people ever talked to me again.  They. erased me like I had never existed.  

The reaction was less severe for me. Probably partially due to the culture being less harsh over time and partially because bisexuality is sometimes seen as “redeemable”.

i seemed to get three general responses:

1. You are gay and just in denial. This is a prevalent secular belief amongst people. Many believe bisexuality doesn’t exist or that only male bisexuality doesn’t exist.
2. You are just confused and will pick a lane eventually. 
3. Great, then marry a woman and never think of it again.
4. I am straight and not interested. (My, don’t we think highly of ourselves? I am bisexual, not desperate.)

I assume I was never getting a calling in Primary or in the Young Men ever again.

Dating in the church is a horrible longshot. I disclosed my sexuality fairly early to people I dated. It almost always ended the relationship and they sometimes told others which mean people in the ward and stake would know and my dating pool shrank. Add that the type of women I am attracted to are rare in the Church already and I decided to stop looking for dates.

[gopher]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:15 PM, Tacenda said:

This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them. I will go on the record on this and hope that going forward it gets better. It's about time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_teachings_on_homosexuality_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Interesting - that would also explain the suicide rate among LDS.  200 years of being persecuted, harassed, bullied, mocked and ridiculed must have a similar effect on church members.  Being told they aren't Christian, that they are foolish or weird for believing in the restored Gospel, and that they are full of hate for standing up for what they believe is right must have a negative impact especially on the youth.  The Internet has been a fertile breeding ground for increased attacks against church leaders, members, and beliefs that help form the identity of believers. Hopefully it will get better.

I think you are on to something here.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Interesting - that would also explain the suicide rate among LDS.  200 years of being persecuted, harassed, bullied, mocked and ridiculed must have a similar effect on church members.  Being told they aren't Christian, that they are foolish or weird for believing in the restored Gospel, and that they are full of hate for standing up for what they believe is right must have a negative impact especially on the youth.  The Internet has been a fertile breeding ground for increased attacks against church leaders, members, and beliefs that help form the identity of believers. Hopefully it will get better.

I think you are on to something here.

Not the same IMO

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, gopher said:

Interesting - that would also explain the suicide rate among LDS.  200 years of being persecuted, harassed, bullied, mocked and ridiculed must have a similar effect on church members.  Being told they aren't Christian, that they are foolish or weird for believing in the restored Gospel, and that they are full of hate for standing up for what they believe is right must have a negative impact especially on the youth.  The Internet has been a fertile breeding ground for increased attacks against church leaders, members, and beliefs that help form the identity of believers. Hopefully it will get better.

I think you are on to something here.

And the Saints who listened to those Christians believed that those Christians were inspired directly by God to say that “Mormons are going to hell”? And the parents of those Saints echoed and taught those words to their kids?

No?

Then yeah, dumb comparison.

Edited June 26, 2023 by The Nehor

[Teancum]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, smac97 said:

You are writing as if I wrote some sort of apologetic for the book.  I didn't.  To the contrary, I acknowledged that it "created problems for many members of the Church," and I also agreed with the sentiments expressed in this article about how the book should be "'allowed to sunset.'"

Yes ok.  But how convenient.  A high level apostle, then church president, writes book that quite frankly was an abomination. It has caused untold damage to likely millions of people.  But let's just let it sunset.  And you wonder why I think the Church's so called prophets and apostles are really rather worthless as a guide on how to live life. They get so much wrong. They cause so much damage.  Kimball was the prophet. His book was extremely popular.  People believed what he wrote. He got so much wrong.  You can't just run away from it. See this is how the church works. Leaders teach things. People believe them. Than later the garbage that they taught is just tossed under the bus or in your words allowed to sunset.  What will be tossed under the bus or sunset 10, 15 or 20 years from now.  The LDS leaders are totally unreliable.  Totally.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Teancum

[gopher]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:45 AM, The Nehor said:

And the Saints who listened to those Christians believed that those Christians were inspired directly by God to say that “Mormons are going to hell”? And the parents of those Saints echoed and taught those words to their kids?

No?

Then yeah, dumb comparison.

yeah, I guess I don't understand your dumb response.  Are you saying it's dumb to recklessly and irresponsibly claim that many closeted gays committed suicide because of comments made by church leaders but it's not dumb to recklessly and irresponsibly claim that the suicide rate for LDS is due to the damning comments made by anti-mormons?

Since Nehor isn't known for using abrasive or dismissive language with those he disagrees, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was using a definition of "dumb" where it means "smart, insightful, or thought-provoking".  Kinda like how "bad" can also mean "good".

Edited June 27, 2023 by gopher

[gopher]

13 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes ok.  But how convenient.  A high level apostle, then church president, writes book that quite frankly was an abomination. It has caused untold damage to likely millions of people.  But let's just let it sunset.  And you wonder why I think the Church's so called prophets and apostles are really rather worthless as a guide on how to live life. They get so much wrong. They cause so much damage.  Kimball was the prophet. His book was extremely popular.  People believed what he wrote. He got so much wrong.  You can't just run away from it. See this is how the church works. Leaders teach things. People believe them. Than later the garbage that they taught is just tossed under the bus or in your words allowed to sunset.  What will be tossed under the bus or sunset 10, 15 or 20 years from now.  The LDS leaders are totally unreliable.  Totally.

Or you could also recognize that President Kimball used extra harsh language about mostly gay men as a warning of the impending epidemic that killed millions of gay men.  Those who heeded the prophet's counsel had a good chance to survive.  Now that AIDS is no longer a death sentence, prophets have cooled their rhetoric towards gay men.  It's still a spiritual death sentence for many in the LGBT community and their supporters so that seems to the bigger focus now to encourage them to not abandon their faith and testimonies.  So I think the case could also be made that LDS leaders have been inspired.

[MustardSeed]

19 minutes ago, gopher said:

Or you could also recognize that President Kimball used extra harsh language about mostly gay men as a warning of the impending epidemic that killed millions of gay men.

No. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

Or you could also recognize that President Kimball used extra harsh language about mostly gay men as a warning of the impending epidemic that killed millions of gay men.  Those who heeded the prophet's counsel had a good chance to survive.  Now that AIDS is no longer a death sentence, prophets have cooled their rhetoric towards gay men.  It's still a spiritual death sentence for many in the LGBT community and their supporters so that seems to the bigger focus now to encourage them to not abandon their faith and testimonies.  So I think the case could also be made that LDS leaders have been inspired.

This is really messed up.  Read again what he wrote.  It wasn't a message about health concerns.  It was outright lies.  Masturbation does not turn you gay.  It doesn't lead you to want to have sex with animals.  To someone who is gay it is normal for them and not a perversion.  It is not curable.  It can not be prayed away.  

“Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: ‘How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.’”  

This one quote caused me so much agony and feeling worthless because no matter how much I followed this advice, no matter how much I prayed.  How much I fasted.  How much I pleaded with God, I was still gay.  God didn't keep the promise that was offered.  It was a LIE.  It was a lie that my family believed.  They blamed me for not becoming straight because, well Spencer W. Kimball offered that solution.  

 

[MustardSeed]

29 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is really messed up.  Read again what he wrote.  It wasn't a message about health concerns.  It was outright lies.  Masturbation does not turn you gay.  It doesn't lead you to want to have sex with animals.  To someone who is gay it is normal for them and not a perversion.  It is not curable.  It can not be prayed away.  

“Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: ‘How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.’”  

This one quote caused me so much agony and feeling worthless because no matter how much I followed this advice, no matter how much I prayed.  How much I fasted.  How much I pleaded with God, I was still gay.  God didn't keep the promise that was offered.  It was a LIE.  It was a lie that my family believed.  They blamed me for not becoming straight because, well Spencer W. Kimball offered that solution.  

 

This makes me physically sick to read.  I’m already sick, but it makes me feel more sick. 
 

it reminds me of the dramatic matron who instructed me on the garment: Can’t touch ground EVER.  Reminds me of bishop who refused recommends for open mouth kissing- that talk was so damning.  Reminds me of BYU grad school professor who insisted we were “sinning” if we were postponing any procreation for school (that’s a very different message for a 22 year-old woman than it is for a 25 year old man btw- try going to grad school while you’re nursing a baby and raising a toddler) - I have a lot of resentment for spiritual manipulation that was delivered by -unbeknownst to me at the time- folks who were JUST PROJECTING THEIR PERSONAL FEARS OF THEIR OWN CHALLENGES.   As a result, I have always believed I am going to hell, and I don’t quite know how to shake it. I do know in my maturity that I now have the right to have a conversation with God to determine whether or not somebody’s pulpit  pounding actually applies to me or not.

I am sure my experience is weak compared to yours but if my experience is any indication of your resentments, I don’t blame you at all.  What a retched piece of literature for gay people to have had to live through. It was hard enough for a teenager who’s boyfriend had hands (and hardly did much with them). I’m actually embarrassed now about the conversation I thought I had to have with my bishop over that and how long I fretted about it. I seriously would like to go back to 1979 and scoop me up and hold her tight.