Article Re: Mental Health of Latter-day Saints

[Benjamin McGuire]

5 hours ago, helix said:

A couple months ago I  took suicide data from the CDC, for 15-19 year olds, between 1999-2021 (a handful of states haven't reported 2021 yet, but it won't change results much).

Useless data. You are getting an average over the past 22 years. Between 2007 and 2014, Utah's adolescent suicide rate tripled. And it has gone up significantly since then.

Age also matters. If you want to see the results from the CDC Wonder data set for 2018-2020, age 15-19, you can find it here. Utah ranks 5th, at 22 suicides per 100,000 (behind Wyoming, Montana, Alaska and South Dakota). It really doesn't matter how we slice this loaf of bread, the Utah statistics are high. And, we cannot simply attribute this to the LDS versus non-LDS data in a state like Utah.

I don't believe that the LDS Church is responsible for the high suicide rates - but the evidence also doesn't show that the LDS Church has a significant impact on the high suicide rates - which means that the LDS Church doesn't appear to be a strong statistical deterrent to suicide.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

A stronger correlative is cold winters and higher altitudes.

To the idea that cold winters matter, this is rather nonsensical. Utah isn't anywhere near the coldest state. I certainly believe that altitude may play a role in suicide rates - the evidence seems convincing - but the challenge is that the altitude hasn't changed - and so we should expect (if cold and altitude were the predominant causes of suicide) that Utah suicide rates would stay consistent with the regional and US data (offset perhaps from the averages because of these conditions). But this isn't the case. You can't take a huge jump in adolescent suicides over a relatively short period of time and blame it on the altitude or the temperature. Those things simply don't change all that significantly. There must be other things that are causing these shifts. And there are a lot of candidates.

In the long run, the issue isn't about trying to place blame. That article says this:

Quote

While there may be reason to pat ourselves on the back, we should also push ourselves forward.

And I just don't see any reason for LDS to pat ourselves on the back for our successes in terms of mental health. This article really doesn't do much to suggest that we deserve this. Such a statement makes me suspect bias.

[helix]

6 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Useless data. You are getting an average over the past 22 years

Read it again. I also said if you only go back 10 years, the rates stay similar.

I would point out that your claim, that Utah's rate was the 3rd worst, was stated without any citation or reference: I provided CDC data which rejects that.

6 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Between 2007 and 2014, Utah's adolescent suicide rate tripled. And it has gone up significantly since then.

Useless data.  Be careful thinking spikes are meaningful. Here is the full data set:

Picking 2007 as the starting point is definitely cherry picking.

I wanted to see how other states spiked. So I pulled up 15-19 year old data.

Utah's had 2.25x increase between 2011 through 2014, then decreased.
Colorado has a roughly similar trend as Utah. A doubling between 2007 and 2015, and theirs appears to be increasing afterward.
South Dakota has a 2.5x spike between 2014 and 2019
Georgia's spiked 1.8x between 2011 and 2017
Idaho had a 2x spike between 2005 and 2007
Illinois had a 1.9x spike between 2013 and 2017
Oklahoma had a 2.4x spike between 2007 and 2019
Iowa had a big spike between 2014 and 2017
Minnesota's had a 2.4x spike between 2008 and 2017
New Mexico had a 2.4x spike between 2013 and 2017

The problem is you're trying to find trends in spikes from small amounts of data.  Better to look at all long term trends across many states.

6 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

If you want to see the results from the CDC Wonder data set for 2018-2020

Yes...I know those results. I linked them to you already...

We should never compare suicide rates for small age ranges for a small year range for small population states.  2018-2020 is too small. The values are too highly variable to make any meaningful comparison. At 2018-2020, we aren't just comparing apples to oranges.  We're comparing apples to unicorns.  You've got to go usually at least 10 years to start meaningfully comparing 15-19 year olds across states.
 

Edited June 23, 2023 by helix

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

12 hours ago, helix said:

A couple months ago I  took suicide data from the CDC, for 15-19 year olds, between 1999-2021 (a handful of states haven't reported 2021 yet, but it won't change results much).

Useless data. You are getting an average over the past 22 years. Between 2007 and 2014, Utah's adolescent suicide rate tripled. And it has gone up significantly since then.

Age also matters. If you want to see the results from the CDC Wonder data set for 2018-2020, age 15-19, you can find it here. Utah ranks 5th, at 22 suicides per 100,000 (behind Wyoming, Montana, Alaska and South Dakota). It really doesn't matter how we slice this loaf of bread, the Utah statistics are high. And, we cannot simply attribute this to the LDS versus non-LDS data in a state like Utah.

I don't believe that the LDS Church is responsible for the high suicide rates - but the evidence also doesn't show that the LDS Church has a significant impact on the high suicide rates - which means that the LDS Church doesn't appear to be a strong statistical deterrent to suicide.

To be fair, there has been a sharp increase across the country in this timeframe. I was listening to a podcast with a researcher in this area that tied it to the drastic increase in social media that in turn led to changes in how youths generally socialized, especially for (but not limited to) girls. 

I would expect the church to have a positive influence on those who are active, if this were true. Namely because it give another structural source for face to face engagement. But that's a big possibily. No source can fully mitigate aassive shift in culture that leads to more social isolation, less direct engagement, and more sources for social comparison. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

To be fair, there has been a sharp increase across the country in this timeframe. I was listening to a podcast with a researcher in this area that tied it to the drastic increase in social media that in turn led to changes in how youths generally socialized, especially for (but not limited to) girls. 

I would expect the church to have a positive influence on those who are active, if this were true. Namely because it give another structural source for face to face engagement. But that's a big possibily. No source can fully mitigate aassive shift in culture that leads to more social isolation, less direct engagement, and more sources for social comparison. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

spot on

[Benjamin McGuire]

9 hours ago, helix said:

I would point out that your claim, that Utah's rate was the 3rd worst, was stated without any citation or reference: I provided CDC data which rejects that.

And here you go. The data displayed is for 2020, taken from the CDC data. The reality is that Utah could be at the bottom of the top 10, or even the bottom of the top 15 - it wouldn't affect my larger point. The question is, why, if the Church is so good for mental health, is the evidence so different from what this article claims? Why, when I google Utah Mental Health, is the first article in my search results this? How can we pat ourselves on the back while we see articles like this one? I could make a long list. I think that LoudMouthMormon's suggestion (or at least the implications of his comments) are spot on - the goal is to try and defend the Church against accusations that it is contributing to the mental health problems in the state of Utah. And in that context, this article is merely biased propaganda.

10 hours ago, helix said:

The problem is you're trying to find trends in spikes from small amounts of data.  Better to look at all long term trends across many states.

The trend is really very clear. And it has been discussed a lot for Utah. Utah's adolescent suicide rates are very high, no matter what metric you use. It cannot simply be attributed to cold or altitude - because other states with similar conditions aren't as high in terms of adolescent suicide rates. According to the CDC data, the 2020 suicide rate for 15-19 year olds in Utah was 19.4. If we look at your chart, you can see how shifting the age range to 10-17 changes how the data appears. In 2020, several of the states you mention are in the worst group - South Dakota (although the data here is so limited its problematic), Idaho, New Mexico. Utah is right here with the worst states. By comparison, the best 5 states would be New York (4.7), Massachusetts (5.8), New Jersey (6.2), California (6.9), and Pennsylvania (7.1). So no matter how we want to slice the loaf of bread, Utah has a problem. And we can blame it on temperature and altitude - but - what we cannot say is that the Church is having some sort of positive impact on the suicide rates. To suggest that would be to suggest that without the Church, the adolescent suicide rate in Utah would be much, much higher. And that would seem to make little sense. (And its probably worth pointing out that I am not simply picking 2020 as the worst year - its just the last year that the data has been more or less finalized - the worst year for Utah was 2019, with a suicide rate of 25.2 in that age group).

Utah's problems are not closely related to the religion. The biggest problems seem to be with the accessibility and perception of mental health professionals in the state. 20 percent of minors in Utah who successfully committed suicide had referrals to mental health professionals and had never gone to see one. In a large study of the suicide cases in Utah (49 of the 151 suicides in the study window), those close to individuals reported a very similar set of barriers to getting mental health support: "belief that nothing could help, seeking help is a sign of weakness or failure, reluctance to admit to having mental health problems, denial of problems, and too embarrassed to seek help." This lead to the conclusion that there was significant stigma towards mental health issues in Utah. Could the largest organization in the state work more actively to de-stigmatize mental health care? Probably.

Utah's adult population suicide rate is also high. It isn't the highest. But it is far from the bottom of the list. What rubs me the wrong way is the suggestion that Mormonism is this champion of mental health - that they deserve a pat on the back for the good work that they do - despite the fact that the state sits near the bottom of most mental health metrics.

10 hours ago, helix said:

We should never compare suicide rates for small age ranges for a small year range for small population states.  2018-2020 is too small. The values are too highly variable to make any meaningful comparison. At 2018-2020, we aren't just comparing apples to oranges.  We're comparing apples to unicorns.  You've got to go usually at least 10 years to start meaningfully comparing 15-19 year olds across states.

And here is where the real issue is when you are trying to use these kinds of statistics to measure the impact of the LDS Church on mental health relative to the LGBTQ community (the article could have simply left that out without much impact on the point of the article). Statistically, no one questions the fact that LGBTQ youth have a significantly higher proportion of suicides than their straight peers. But research has suggested that societal acceptance reduces that risk. In the states that passed laws allowing and protecting same-sex marriage, there was a 7% drop in high school student suicide. Obergefell happened in 2015 - less than 10 years ago. In 1999 under President Hinckley, the Church formally recognized a biological cause for same-sex attraction, and invited Church members to have much greater tolerance for those who are gay. In 2015, after Obergefell, the Church dramatically changed gears, and its policy towards the LGBTQ community shifted very negatively. Some of those new policies were pulled back in 2019. If there is a reality that the Church has negatively impacted suicide rates for LGBTQ adolescents in Utah, that evidence is going to sit within that 10 year window. In another couple years, perhaps we can have this discussion again, and look at the 10 year window beginning with the Church's shift in policy as it moved away from acceptance of the LGBTQ community and began labeling them again. And while there is, as @BlueDreams just pointed out, a trend across the country in growing suicide rates (and Utah is certainly a participant in that trend), the question remains why, if the LDS Church is so good for our mental health, is Utah right at the front edge of that trend instead of in the back or even in the middle of the pack?

[Teancum]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:27 PM, smac97 said:

Here (from the Deseret News) :

This quote is from Jacob 4:13 - "Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old."

I have always liked that verse.

I appreciate this perspective.  It is one that has been growing in the Church for some time now.  We need to evaluate ourselves as we are just as much, if not more so, than as we could or should be. 

We also should not reflexively acquiesce to narrative depictions of us, either from without or within:

This is an important point.  Using data about Utahns as a convenient proxy for data about the Latter-day Saints and/or the Church just doesn't work.  

The above link is to an article entitled "Sexuality, religion, and mental health."  It is worth a read.

The findings are pretty interesting.

This is not really a surprise, nor should it be.  The next bit merits attention:

Both of these are attributable to the teachings of the Church, and I am glad of that.

The downside is also somewhat attributable to the teachings of the Church, and this is where we can improve:

Back in 2015 I posted some comments about an article discussing the above-described "adaptive perfectionism" and "maladaptive perfectionism" phenomena:

This is good stuff to keep in mind.  Back to the first article:

I suspect "maladaptive perfectionism" (having "fear and anxiety about performance — that is, feeling the need to be perfect lest others look down on you" and "struggl{ing} a little more with feelings of failure, feelings of not being good enough, disappointment, discouragement, and {feeling} down about themselves because they’re not able to meet those high standards") is often a contributing factor in estrangement from the Restored Gospel.  As I noted beck in 2015:

Back to the first article:

I would understand this as affecting women and girls.  I would be curious as to how it affects men and boys as well.

"{J}ust as good and typically better mental health than LGBTQ individuals of other religious traditions or those who describe themselves as not believing in God."

Huh.

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately, but I have not specifically linked it to the phrase/concept of "identity conflict," described here:

And here:

My understanding of the term "identity domain" is that it refers to a specific area or aspect of an individual's identity that is related to a particular social group, role, or context.  (If anyone could point me to a broadly-accepted source for defining this term, that would be appreciated.)

As I understand it, "identity conflict" refers to situations where a person experiences a sense of anxiety, struggle, tension, etc. arising from a discrepancy, contradiction, or clash between his different "identity domains."  A person with an "identity domain" as a Latter-day Saint as well as an "identity domain" of, say, a gay person may find himself torn between competing demands, expectations, or values associated with the actual and/or perceived differences in the social contexts, roles, or cultures of those two domains.

As the first article above notes, "{r}esolving identity conflicts is likely key for LGBTQ individuals to remain connected with God and the church in healthy ways."  I think resolving such conflicts can become difficult, or even impossible, when we conflate the "identity domain" (here, having same-sex attraction) with manifested behaviors associated with that domain (engaging in homosexual conduct).  

Back to the first article:

I appreciate this summary.  "The jury is still out," as it were.

I hope BYU and other organizations help in conducting such additional research.

Huh.  That's an interesting assessment.  I would like to see it explored and explained more.

Yep.  "In Utah" is not interchangeable with "being a Latter-day Saint."

This is an important point when considering online (and often anonymous) narratives and declarations about how living as an observant and faithful Latter-day Saint is injurious to mental health.  Broadly speaking, that does not seem to be the case.

Yes.  Many former Latter-day Saints also struggle in this way, and also deserve understanding and help.

"{G}iving increased attention to religious faith and activity ... {and} continuing with these practices in healthy ways {within the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ} will benefit those who are faithful ... {in ways that} are both temporal and eternal."

"{T}here is still a lot of work we need to do."

Very good stuff, this.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for sharing and it was a good article. I think research shows, that in general, religious people have less depression and overall better mental health and I would expect this to be true among the LDS population as well.  And I am also glad the article pointed out that many Latter-day Saints that may be prone to perfectionism, self criticism or maybe over more disposed for whatever reason to depression may have things exacerbated by some of the emphasis on works and less on  grace.  Personally I fall into that camp. I was a fairly miserable Latter-day Saint up until my late 30s. I focused compulsively on trying to be perfect, to perfect myself and so on and was often quite depressed and full of anxiety about my position before God.  I think this was aggravated by at least much of what I heard from LDS leaders as a developing teen in the 70s.  SWK often talked about being perfect, perfecting ourselves (See Miracle Of Forgiveness).  In my late 30s I made an exensinec study of the scruitpres and ound that the unique LDS scriptures as well as the NT were full of grace and my perspective changed quite a bit and much of the depression and anxiety I had at east regarding religion and my standing before God diminished substantially.  However, when in my late 40s and early 50s my testimony in the validity of the LDS truth claims crumbled that created an entire new set of depression and anxiety.

So where am I now  I don't worry about religion, God and my standing before a being I am not sure even exists. But I still have to work on depression and anxiety in  general. I thing my genetic make up and some trauma I had as a child and teen are just with me.  And I have to work through that likely always. I cope well and feel more settled than I ever have.  But being honest there is that spiritual void and I miss the certainty I once had in many ways.  But in some ways I am ok with it as well. I keep searching though and try to be open.

[Teancum]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:59 AM, Emily said:

There's nothing in the teachings of the church that should cause people to be too hard on themselves.

I disagree with this vehemently.  Though things are getting miu better sine the era of books like Believing Christ that you mention.  Have you ever read the book Miracle of Forgiveness?

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

And here you go. The data displayed is for 2020, taken from the CDC data. The reality is that Utah could be at the bottom of the top 10, or even the bottom of the top 15 - it wouldn't affect my larger point. The question is, why, if the Church is so good for mental health, is the evidence so different from what this article claims? Why, when I google Utah Mental Health, is the first article in my search results this? How can we pat ourselves on the back while we see articles like this one? I could make a long list. I think that LoudMouthMormon's suggestion (or at least the implications of his comments) are spot on - the goal is to try and defend the Church against accusations that it is contributing to the mental health problems in the state of Utah. And in that context, this article is merely biased propaganda.

The trend is really very clear. And it has been discussed a lot for Utah. Utah's adolescent suicide rates are very high, no matter what metric you use. It cannot simply be attributed to cold or altitude - because other states with similar conditions aren't as high in terms of adolescent suicide rates. According to the CDC data, the 2020 suicide rate for 15-19 year olds in Utah was 19.4. If we look at your chart, you can see how shifting the age range to 10-17 changes how the data appears. In 2020, several of the states you mention are in the worst group - South Dakota (although the data here is so limited its problematic), Idaho, New Mexico. Utah is right here with the worst states. By comparison, the best 5 states would be New York (4.7), Massachusetts (5.8), New Jersey (6.2), California (6.9), and Pennsylvania (7.1). So no matter how we want to slice the loaf of bread, Utah has a problem. And we can blame it on temperature and altitude - but - what we cannot say is that the Church is having some sort of positive impact on the suicide rates. To suggest that would be to suggest that without the Church, the adolescent suicide rate in Utah would be much, much higher. And that would seem to make little sense. (And its probably worth pointing out that I am not simply picking 2020 as the worst year - its just the last year that the data has been more or less finalized - the worst year for Utah was 2019, with a suicide rate of 25.2 in that age group).

Utah's problems are not closely related to the religion. The biggest problems seem to be with the accessibility and perception of mental health professionals in the state. 20 percent of minors in Utah who successfully committed suicide had referrals to mental health professionals and had never gone to see one. In a large study of the suicide cases in Utah (49 of the 151 suicides in the study window), those close to individuals reported a very similar set of barriers to getting mental health support: "belief that nothing could help, seeking help is a sign of weakness or failure, reluctance to admit to having mental health problems, denial of problems, and too embarrassed to seek help." This lead to the conclusion that there was significant stigma towards mental health issues in Utah. Could the largest organization in the state work more actively to de-stigmatize mental health care? Probably.

Utah's adult population suicide rate is also high. It isn't the highest. But it is far from the bottom of the list. What rubs me the wrong way is the suggestion that Mormonism is this champion of mental health - that they deserve a pat on the back for the good work that they do - despite the fact that the state sits near the bottom of most mental health metrics.

And here is where the real issue is when you are trying to use these kinds of statistics to measure the impact of the LDS Church on mental health relative to the LGBTQ community (the article could have simply left that out without much impact on the point of the article). Statistically, no one questions the fact that LGBTQ youth have a significantly higher proportion of suicides than their straight peers. But research has suggested that societal acceptance reduces that risk. In the states that passed laws allowing and protecting same-sex marriage, there was a 7% drop in high school student suicide. Obergefell happened in 2015 - less than 10 years ago. In 1999 under President Hinckley, the Church formally recognized a biological cause for same-sex attraction, and invited Church members to have much greater tolerance for those who are gay. In 2015, after Obergefell, the Church dramatically changed gears, and its policy towards the LGBTQ community shifted very negatively. Some of those new policies were pulled back in 2019. If there is a reality that the Church has negatively impacted suicide rates for LGBTQ adolescents in Utah, that evidence is going to sit within that 10 year window. In another couple years, perhaps we can have this discussion again, and look at the 10 year window beginning with the Church's shift in policy as it moved away from acceptance of the LGBTQ community and began labeling them again. And while there is, as @BlueDreams just pointed out, a trend across the country in growing suicide rates (and Utah is certainly a participant in that trend), the question remains why, if the LDS Church is so good for our mental health, is Utah right at the front edge of that trend instead of in the back or even in the middle of the pack?

This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them. I will go on the record on this and hope that going forward it gets better. It's about time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_teachings_on_homosexuality_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Edited June 23, 2023 by Tacenda

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Thanks for sharing and it was a good article. I think research shows, that in general, religious people have less depression and overall better mental health and I would expect this to be true among the LDS population as well.  And I am also glad the article pointed out that many Latter-day Saints that may be prone to perfectionism, self criticism or maybe over more disposed for whatever reason to depression may have things exacerbated by some of the emphasis on works and less on  grace. 

I agree.  The "adaptive perfectionism" and "maladaptive perfectionism" distinction seems to be pretty important, but not one that is a part of the public consciousness in the Church, including its past leaders.  I suspect today's leaders are a bit better attuned to this sort of thing.

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Personally I fall into that camp. I was a fairly miserable Latter-day Saint up until my late 30s. I focused compulsively on trying to be perfect, to perfect myself and so on and was often quite depressed and full of anxiety about my position before God.  I think this was aggravated by at least much of what I heard from LDS leaders as a developing teen in the 70s.  SWK often talked about being perfect, perfecting ourselves (See Miracle Of Forgiveness). 

I think Miracle of Forgiveness, though clearly well-intentioned, created problems for many members of the Church.  This 2015 Trib article sums things up well: LDS classic 'Miracle of Forgiveness' fading away, and some Mormons say it's time

Some excerpts:

Quote

The late LDS Church President Spencer W. Kimball's "The Miracle of Forgiveness," a classic but controversial book that shaped Mormon sexual assumptions for generations, is quietly disappearing.

The much-circulated 1969 treatise on guilt, wrongdoing and repentance by then-apostle Kimball, who died in 1985, presented masturbation "as too often [leading] to ... homosexuality," gay sex as a "crime against nature" that sometimes leads to sex with animals, and premarital sex as "the sin next to murder."

"All such deviations from normal, proper heterosexual relationships are not merely unnatural," he wrote, "but wrong in the sight of God."

I think this strident stuff has been difficult to address.

Quote

The hardcover version of "Miracle" is now out of print, according to Deseret Book marketing manager Dave Kimball (a distant relative of the late Mormon prophet), and the paperback is listed as "out of stock indefinitely."

The paperback's OSI designation "is a status we typically use on older, slower-moving titles," the Deseret Book manager writes in an email, "whose replenishment [printing] orders are fewer and further between."

An electronic version remains available, and new and used copies still are floating around.

Some Mormons, however, are pleased to see the book fade from use.

"Miracle" was "written by a beloved apostle, then president of the church,' says Erika Munson, co-founder of Mormons Building Bridges, which works to improve ties between the LDS and LGBT communities, "but it is not in alignment with current LDS Church doctrine and policy that being gay is not a choice and not a sin."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that same-sex attraction is not a sin, only acting on it is.

I am curious if Miracle of Forgiveness actually addressed that distinction ("being gay" versus engaging in homosexual conduct).

Quote

Even the late Mormon prophet had second thoughts about the book, based on his many years counseling LDS youths.

"The book's tone, tougher than Spencer's in-person counseling, reflected his belief that people rationalize sin too quickly and consider repentance easy," writes the Mormon leader's son, Edward L. Kimball's in a popular 2005 biography of his father, "Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball."

Indeed, writes the son, "Miracle" was a book "more on sin and repentance than on forgiveness."

Kimball "later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone," Edward Kimball writes.

In 1977, the Mormon leader said to Lyle Ward, his neighbor, "Sometimes I think I might have been a little too strong about some of the things I wrote in that book."

Some members wrote to say the book's "stiff medicine was rightly prescribed" and brought them "to their senses," Edward Kimball writes, but when others "became discouraged by a standard that seemed to them unattainable, he wished he had communicated more understanding and encouragement."

Allen Bergin, a retired Brigham Young University psychologist, says he has read "the ugly chapter on homosexuality ... many times."

"There are some good things in it that are useful," says Bergin, former president of the Association of Mormon Counselors and Psychotherapists. "But they are overshadowed by a host of negatives and also outdated policies that the church itself doesn't even endorse any more."

Bergin says his affection for the Yoda-like Mormon prophet is undiminished, which is why the former BYU professor welcomes the book's apparent retirement.

"He did some wonderful personal things for me that I will always treasure. He was truly a great person," Bergin says. "It is unfortunate that his reputation for goodwill is obscured by some extreme adjectives he used 45 years ago."

Kimball's grandson Jordan Kimball echoes that sentiment.

"I would want him to be remembered," Jordan Kimball says, "for his love, compassion and encouragement."

"Miracle" grew "out of his experience of the 1940s, '50s and '60s, and, in its time, it didn't seem out of place," Jordan Kimball says, "but it was used beyond its due date. Even the church has moved on."

Some members of the late prophet's family, Jordan Kimball says, wished the now-anachronistic book could have been "allowed to sunset."

He believes that's what his grandfather would have wanted.

Yep.  

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

In my late 30s I made an exensinec study of the scruitpres and ound that the unique LDS scriptures as well as the NT were full of grace and my perspective changed quite a bit and much of the depression and anxiety I had at east regarding religion and my standing before God diminished substantially.  However, when in my late 40s and early 50s my testimony in the validity of the LDS truth claims crumbled that created an entire new set of depression and anxiety.

I am sorry to hear that.

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

So where am I now  I don't worry about religion, God and my standing before a being I am not sure even exists. But I still have to work on depression and anxiety in  general. I thing my genetic make up and some trauma I had as a child and teen are just with me.  And I have to work through that likely always. I cope well and feel more settled than I ever have.  But being honest there is that spiritual void and I miss the certainty I once had in many ways.  But in some ways I am ok with it as well. I keep searching though and try to be open.

For me, the Book of Mormon, both as to its doctrinal content and provenance, is what keeps me going through difficult times.  If the book is what it claims to be, then I think the same holds for the Church.  But that's an individual decision and journey.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 23, 2023 by smac97

[Stormin' Mormon]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them. I will go on the record on this and hope that going forward it gets better. It's about time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_teachings_on_homosexuality_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Kind of off-topic and tangential to your point, but: Wikipedia really has a whole article on the timeline of LDS teachings about homosexuality?  Do they do that for any other church or religion? 

I did a quick search, and found that there are a number of Wikipedia articles about homosexuality and individual religions, but the LDS Church gets TWO: a general one that parallels the other articles about homosexuality in other religions, and the timeline of teachings that Tacenda linked to.  Together, those two articles consist of nearly 12,000 words on the topic. By way of comparison, the Catholic church also gets two articles about it and homosexuality: the generalized one and one about homosexual clergy.  Together, their two articles add up to 6,000 words.

Is the LDS Church really so bad in the homosexuality department that it needs twice as many words about how it deals with the topic than the largest and oldest sect of Christianity needs?  What is the public's fascination with LDS treatment of homosexuality that gets us painted as so much worse or more sinister than other conservative sects of the faith? 

I get that we haven't always been the cuddliest and most accommodating for sexual minorities.  But do we really deserve to be the world's whipping boy for espousing similar teachings on the topic that are present in other, older, more numerous and more influential churches?  And do we never get any credit for the legislative advocacy that the Church engages in, in supporting and promoting bills that would protect sexual minorities from discrimination in housing and employment?  Honestly, I just don't get it.  

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am curious if Miracle of Forgiveness actually addressed that distinction ("being gay" versus engaging in homosexual conduct).

LOL

Oh wait, you’re serious? Let me laugh even harder.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

It did suggest it might lead to bestiality.

“Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking sexual satisfactions with animals.”

So those who can’t stop equating the two are….following the prophet?

And on masturbation:

“What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation - practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality.”

Yeah, that is not how any of that works.

“How Serious Is the Sin of Homosexuality?  Of the adverse social effects of homosexuality none is more significant than the effect on marriage and home. The normal, God-given sexual relationship is the procreative act between man and woman in honorable marriage where stands the perversion of homosexuality? Clearly it is hostile to God's purpose in that it negates his first and great commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth." If the abominable practice became universal it would depopulate the earth in a single generation.”

It is contagious and can spread and depopulate the whole Earth. 

“It would nullify God's great program for his spirit children in that it would leave countless unembodied spirits in the heavenly world without the chance for the opportunities of mortality and would deny to all the participants in the practice the eternal life God makes available to us all.  Because of the seriousness of this sin it carries a heavy penalty for the unrepentant. The offender may realize that disfellowshipment or excommunication is the penalty for heavy petting, adultery, fornication and comparable sins if there is not adequate repentance, yet he often supposes that because his acts have not been committed with the opposite sex he is not in sin. Let it therefore be clearly stated that the seriousness of the sin of homosexuality is equal to or greater than that of fornication or adultery; and that the Lord's Church will as readily take action to disfellowship or excommunicate the unrepentant practicing homosexual as it will the unrepentant fornicator or adulterer.”

Homosexuality is a sin against the unborn!

“After consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable. The Lord has promised that all sins can be forgiven except certain ones enumerated, and this evil was not among those named. Thus it is forgivable if totally abandoned and if the repentance is sincere and absolute. Certainly it can be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once involved in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives.”

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, yes, completely curable. I apologize on behalf of all bisexuals who were “cured” for creating these rare successes.

“Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: ‘How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.’”  

Gee, I wonder how many queer people this screwed up? Me at least. If I just keep pounding on the door and begging eventually God will find a spare minute to cure it. PRAY HARDER HEATHEN! I’m trying but it is not enough. It is never enough! It is not working! If I just keep beating myself into a pulp I will eventually be delivered! He promised the desire would go away. The prophet promised…………

“Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that ‘God made them that way.’”

It is your fault and YOU are responsible for the tendency and God did not make you this way. You sinned yourself into this.

“This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way’?”

That is one of the stupidest arguments ever made if you try to generalize it in any way. Here, try this: “What, your child was stillborn? What sins did you commit? You are made in the image of God! Do you think Heavenly Mother has stillborn children you vile reprobate? How dare you suggest it is just something nature did to you? What kind of depraved pervert would suggest God would make them imperfect. You did something to cause this!”

“Sometimes not heavenly but earthly parents get the blame. Granted that certain conditions make it easier for one to become a pervert, the second Article of Faith teaches that a man will be punished for his own sins”

This part is actually very mildly progressive. There are some earlier statements that suggest that having a gay child is the fault of the parents, mostly the father. I wonder how much abuse coming from a place of self-hatred that that counsel facilitated. If your son being gay means dad failed he better not be gay. Must be some way to fix it. Use the rod, beat the gay out of the child.

“He can, if normal, rise above the frustrations of childhood and stand on his own feet.”

If normal? And what happens to the abnormal? What is abnormal? I thought we are all made in the image of God? Does God make abnormal people now? Make up your mind!

“A man may rationalize and excuse himself till the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty. But temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted.”

Except unlike almost all other sins resistance doesn’t weaken the temptation. Why not?

 

 

Excuse me while I pour bleach into my eyes after reading those words that got burned into my brain young again.

Oh, and if you want more fun it also includes the fun teaching about how dying is preferable to losing your virtue.

To be clear I am not suggesting that this is somehow uniquely horrible. This was common stuff in the literature of the day in dealing with the gay menace. None of this sounds like revelation. He was just parroting the common secular talk of the day and pasting some scriptures on top of it. If I might coin a completely original metaphor it could be said he was mingling the philosophies of men with scripture.

 

[ksfisher]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:46 AM, The Nehor said:

I am very aware that if I disclosed what I am openly that I would be marginalized (more) by other members. It is hard to feel good about the fellowship of the saints when you know exactly how conditional is.

My experience is that, in general, we are our own harshest judges.  Most people (but, unfortunately, not all) have enough going on in their own lives that they don't spend a lot of time thinking about other peoples challenges.

I know people in my ward who've cheated on their spouses.

I know people who are gay.

I know people who struggle with the word of wisdom.

I know people who have been in rehab.

I know people who are on anti-depressants.

I also know the stupid things I've done in my life.

Our Father in Heave in a God of forgiveness, compassion, and mercy.  As we strive to live the gospel we also learn to be forgiving, compassionate, and merciful.  We're all learning and we all far short of the ideal, but we're learning.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Kind of off-topic and tangential to your point, but: Wikipedia really has a whole article on the timeline of LDS teachings about homosexuality?  Do they do that for any other church or religion? 

I did a quick search, and found that there are a number of Wikipedia articles about homosexuality and individual religions, but the LDS Church gets TWO: a general one that parallels the other articles about homosexuality in other religions, and the timeline of teachings that Tacenda linked to.  Together, those two articles consist of nearly 12,000 words on the topic. By way of comparison, the Catholic church also gets two articles about it and homosexuality: the generalized one and one about homosexual clergy.  Together, their two articles add up to 6,000 words.

Is the LDS Church really so bad in the homosexuality department that it needs twice as many words about how it deals with the topic than the largest and oldest sect of Christianity needs?  What is the public's fascination with LDS treatment of homosexuality that gets us painted as so much worse or more sinister than other conservative sects of the faith? 

I get that we haven't always been the cuddliest and most accommodating for sexual minorities.  But do we really deserve to be the world's whipping boy for espousing similar teachings on the topic that are present in other, older, more numerous and more influential churches?  And do we never get any credit for the legislative advocacy that the Church engages in, in supporting and promoting bills that would protect sexual minorities from discrimination in housing and employment?  Honestly, I just don't get it.  

Not the cuddliest?

That is how you describe the suffering these teachings caused?

And we might want to give up claiming to be the Kingdom of God on the Earth if we are going to resort to whataboutism claiming we weren’t worse than the rest of Christianity.

Our reputation in the LGBTQ community is richly deserved. I suspect that the reason the Church gets more flak for it (and we often do) is that far more of the kids who grow up in it genuinely believe it. This is anecdotal but this is my guess. in the LGBTQ community you find those raised in other churches and it messes up their kids but it is often easier to blow off the religion of their parents. Not always, but often. I talked to an LDS bisexual teen online yesterday begging anyone to tell him how to make his sexuality go away and completely terrified his parents will find out. With this still going on we are probably not going to get an “all is forgiven” for *checks notes* not letting people be discriminatory bigots in a few specific ways.

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My experience is that, in general, we are our own harshest judges.  Most people (but, unfortunately, not all) have enough going on in their own lives that they don't spend a lot of time thinking about other peoples challenges.

I know people in my ward who've cheated on their spouses.

I know people who are gay.

I know people who struggle with the word of wisdom.

I know people who have been in rehab.

I know people who are on anti-depressants.

I also know the stupid things I've done in my life.

Our Father in Heave in a God of forgiveness, compassion, and mercy.  As we strive to live the gospel we also learn to be forgiving, compassionate, and merciful.  We're all learning and we all far short of the ideal, but we're learning.

Being a fornicator or a smoker or an adulterer are a little different. When you repent the stain comes off and so does the label. The temptation fades.

If you are queer…….yeah.

I know people aren’t thinking about me all the time. I do know that if I get that label added my church experience will change like it did when previous congregations largely found out. It sticks. And in some ways it should stay. Fighting that temptation certainly hasn’t changed me except for possibly making me more cynical. Someone who put in the effort after cheating on their spouse reaffirms the relationship they had and heals it and the desire for that sin fades.

So if this grievous sin doesn’t act like other sins what does that mean?

[ksfisher]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Being a fornicator or a smoker or an adulterer are a little different. When you repent the stain comes off and so does the label. The temptation fades.

 

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So if this grievous sin doesn’t act like other sins what does that mean?

I was once,one summer day, walking down the street with a friend of mine who was at the time a counselor in the bishopric.  We passed a yard where, by the number of beer cans on the lawn, it looked like there had been a party the previous night.  He looked at the cans and commented, "there's nothing like a cold beer on a summer day."  He's shared numerous times that he was a former alcoholic.  I don't think the temptation ever left, but he learned to deal with other aspects of his life in a way that made resisting the temptation easier.

Not ever having walked in your shoes I don't know how this applies to you.  I know that our sexual urges are deeply ingrained in us, as they are in all species on this earth.  I admire those saints among us who are gay but choose to obey the law of chastity.  I know it can't be easy.  The Savior is the savior of us all.

[ksfisher]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I do know that if I get that label added my church experience will change like it did when previous congregations largely found out. It sticks.

And some people do say stupid things.

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Not the cuddliest?

That is how you describe the suffering these teachings caused?

My apologies for the light-hearted tone.  I try very hard to maintain a friendly and conversational tone in my writing, especially when I'm making a point that I'm not trying to be confrontational about.  If my choice of word offended, I apologize.  

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And we might want to give up claiming to be the Kingdom of God on the Earth if we are going to resort to whataboutism claiming we weren’t worse than the rest of Christianity.

It's not whataboutism because I'm not trying to defend anything.  But there's no way to measure the proportionality of something that doesn't have an objective measure without comparing it to something else.  In this case, I'm wondering if the level of scrutiny towards LDS teaching on homosexuality are proportional to our numbers, influence, or impact.  It's like that popular meme that asks "is four a lot? Depends on the context."  Is a 12,000 wordcount on Wikipedia a lot?  Depends on the context.  In this case, the context is the comparison to the Catholic Church, which has 10x the U.S. membership, but has only half the Wikipedia wordcount about their own issues with homosexuality.  
 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

 

Our reputation in the LGBTQ community is richly deserved. I suspect that the reason the Church gets more flak for it (and we often do) is that far more of the kids who grow up in it genuinely believe it. This is anecdotal but this is my guess. in the LGBTQ community you find those raised in other churches and it messes up their kids but it is often easier to blow off the religion of their parents. Not always, but often. I talked to an LDS bisexual teen online yesterday begging anyone to tell him how to make his sexuality go away and completely terrified his parents will find out. 

I hadn't considered this angle, and will have to give it some thought.  Our reputation with LGBTQ folks isn't about our teachings per se, which are really not that far different from most other conservative Christian denominations.  But the cost of exiting the LDS faith is much higher.  I think in some contexts, that "stickiness" is a great benefit; it's what helps a Church to grow and be a vital force generation after generation.  But in this context, that stickiness can cause real problems for people who want to (or need to) leave.  

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

With this still going on we are probably not going to get an “all is forgiven” for *checks notes* not letting people be discriminatory bigots in a few specific ways.

I don't expect for the Church's legislative advocacy to be a get-out-of-jail free card.  But it would be nice for it to be acknowledged at least, for LGBTQ activists to recognize that the Church's stance on this issue has grown much more nuanced in the last 15 years to the point that we can actually be partners in making good things happen in the world. In my opinion, the refusal to acknowledge nuance is one of the driving forces in the diviseveness in modern culture.        

Edited June 23, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[The Nehor]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:08 PM, Stormin' Mormon said:

I don't expect for the Church's legislative advocacy to be a get-out-of-jail free card.  But it would be nice for it to be acknowledged at least, for LGBTQ activists to recognize that the Church's stance on this issue has grown much more nuanced in the last 15 years to the point that we can actually be partners in making good things happen in the world. In my opinion, the refusal to acknowledge nuance is one of the driving forces in the diviseveness in modern culture.        

If they acknowledge it it would be in a ‘damning with faint praise’ kind of way. Well, except maybe from some activist groups who would show mild gratitude. The word “Mormon” is bordering on being a slur in some communities. “Sounds like something a Mormon would say” kind of stuff. That and jokes. The swinger community Mormon jokes are actually pretty funny and if other members are going to swinger clubs half as often as I hear stories about what Mormons are up in those clubs we have a bit of an infidelity problem. There isn’t much overlap between the groups though. The LGBTQ community and the swinger community don’t overlap much.

On 6/23/2023 at 3:50 PM, ksfisher said:

And some people do say stupid things.

I don’t mean this in a self-pitying way. I chose the path I am on. I am saying why so few choose it. They don’t just say stupid things. You are very directly ‘othered’. It is not (usually) out of malice but most get very uncomfortable and do the keep your distance while being polite thing. When this happens to teenagers it really messes with them and their parents. The parents even more so because they can more clearly see the contrast in how their child is being treated.

Without some serious paradigm shift the exodus will likely continue.

Edited June 24, 2023 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I was once,one summer day, walking down the street with a friend of mine who was at the time a counselor in the bishopric.  We passed a yard where, by the number of beer cans on the lawn, it looked like there had been a party the previous night.  He looked at the cans and commented, "there's nothing like a cold beer on a summer day."  He's shared numerous times that he was a former alcoholic.  I don't think the temptation ever left, but he learned to deal with other aspects of his life in a way that made resisting the temptation easier.

It may not leave but it does weaken.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking sexual satisfactions with animals.”

So those who can’t stop equating the two are….following the prophet?

I have never equated the two.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And on masturbation:

“What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation - practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality.”

Yeah, that is not how any of that works.

I didn't suggest otherwise.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

<SNIP>

Excuse me while I pour bleach into my eyes after reading those words that got burned into my brain young again.

You are writing as if I wrote some sort of apologetic for the book.  I didn't.  To the contrary, I acknowledged that it "created problems for many members of the Church," and I also agreed with the sentiments expressed in this article about how the book should be "'allowed to sunset.'"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Diamondhands69]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Our reputation in the LGBTQ community is richly deserved. I suspect that the reason the Church gets more flak for it (and we often do) is that far more of the kids who grow up in it genuinely believe it. This is anecdotal but this is my guess. in the LGBTQ community you find those raised in other churches and it messes up their kids but it is often easier to blow off the religion of their parents. Not always, but often. I talked to an LDS bisexual teen online yesterday begging anyone to tell him how to make his sexuality go away and completely terrified his parents will find out. With this still going on we are probably not going to get an “all is forgiven” for *checks notes* not letting people be discriminatory bigots in a few specific ways.

Agreed about our rep. I recall one evening the whole family (my siblings and about 30 grandchildren) were at my parents for dinner gathering and we were discussing the prop 8 stuff in California. It was either during or shortly after the effort was over. 
 

there were many talking pretty negatively about “the gays “ and one person exclaimed “they should all be strung up “ (hanged). Many openly agreed, some said nothing. 
 

now several years later we have a few of those same grandkids who heard that who are openly gay. Must be nice to know how some of their family (all high priests) feel about them. That conversation has probably been repeated a hundred times to their friends about Mormons. 
 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I have never equated the two.

I didn't suggest otherwise.

You are writing as if I wrote some sort of apologetic for the book.  I didn't.  To the contrary, I acknowledged that it "created problems for many members of the Church," and I also agreed with the sentiments expressed in this article about how the book should be "'allowed to sunset.'"

Thanks,

-Smac

I answered your question and went over the passages in the book dealing with homosexuality to show that no such distinction was made. I also talked about other things along the way. They weren’t aimed specifically at you.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

there were many talking pretty negatively about “the gays “ and one person exclaimed “they should all be strung up “ (hanged). Many openly agreed, some said nothing. 

My husband’s family is pretty politically conservative.  I am the odd one out in many ways and I am moderate, not liberal. His dad was a BYU professor, born in Beaver, Utah.   They have had a massive family with massive gatherings.  I have heard a lot of things that made me cringe.  Nothing ever came close to that.  If someone had, I am positive it would have been condemned.  I have never heard any church member talk like that and I have heard a number of things I am ashamed that it was said by a Saint.  I don’t personally know of any Saint I would expect to hear that from.

I hope your extended family is a rare case.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Calm

[Diamondhands69]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t personally know of any Saint I would expect to hear that from.

I hope your extended family is a rare case.

Brigham Young would totally say something like that. 

I’m not thinking too rare at least in personally held beliefs. One of my siblings has s kid who routinely makes FB posts mocking blacks and gays… just like his parents 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

LOL

Oh wait, you’re serious? Let me laugh even harder.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

It did suggest it might lead to bestiality.

“Thus it is that through the ages, perhaps as an extension of homosexual practices, men and women have sunk even to seeking sexual satisfactions with animals.”

So those who can’t stop equating the two are….following the prophet?

And on masturbation:

“What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation - practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality.”

Yeah, that is not how any of that works.

“How Serious Is the Sin of Homosexuality?  Of the adverse social effects of homosexuality none is more significant than the effect on marriage and home. The normal, God-given sexual relationship is the procreative act between man and woman in honorable marriage where stands the perversion of homosexuality? Clearly it is hostile to God's purpose in that it negates his first and great commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth." If the abominable practice became universal it would depopulate the earth in a single generation.”

It is contagious and can spread and depopulate the whole Earth. 

“It would nullify God's great program for his spirit children in that it would leave countless unembodied spirits in the heavenly world without the chance for the opportunities of mortality and would deny to all the participants in the practice the eternal life God makes available to us all.  Because of the seriousness of this sin it carries a heavy penalty for the unrepentant. The offender may realize that disfellowshipment or excommunication is the penalty for heavy petting, adultery, fornication and comparable sins if there is not adequate repentance, yet he often supposes that because his acts have not been committed with the opposite sex he is not in sin. Let it therefore be clearly stated that the seriousness of the sin of homosexuality is equal to or greater than that of fornication or adultery; and that the Lord's Church will as readily take action to disfellowship or excommunicate the unrepentant practicing homosexual as it will the unrepentant fornicator or adulterer.”

Homosexuality is a sin against the unborn!

“After consideration of the evil aspects, the ugliness and prevalence of the evil of homosexuality, the glorious thing to remember is that it is curable and forgivable. The Lord has promised that all sins can be forgiven except certain ones enumerated, and this evil was not among those named. Thus it is forgivable if totally abandoned and if the repentance is sincere and absolute. Certainly it can be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once involved in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives.”

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, yes, completely curable. I apologize on behalf of all bisexuals who were “cured” for creating these rare successes.

“Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: ‘How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.’”  

Gee, I wonder how many queer people this screwed up? Me at least. If I just keep pounding on the door and begging eventually God will find a spare minute to cure it. PRAY HARDER HEATHEN! I’m trying but it is not enough. It is never enough! It is not working! If I just keep beating myself into a pulp I will eventually be delivered! He promised the desire would go away. The prophet promised…………

“Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that ‘God made them that way.’”

It is your fault and YOU are responsible for the tendency and God did not make you this way. You sinned yourself into this.

“This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way’?”

That is one of the stupidest arguments ever made if you try to generalize it in any way. Here, try this: “What, your child was stillborn? What sins did you commit? You are made in the image of God! Do you think Heavenly Mother has stillborn children you vile reprobate? How dare you suggest it is just something nature did to you? What kind of depraved pervert would suggest God would make them imperfect. You did something to cause this!”

“Sometimes not heavenly but earthly parents get the blame. Granted that certain conditions make it easier for one to become a pervert, the second Article of Faith teaches that a man will be punished for his own sins”

This part is actually very mildly progressive. There are some earlier statements that suggest that having a gay child is the fault of the parents, mostly the father. I wonder how much abuse coming from a place of self-hatred that that counsel facilitated. If your son being gay means dad failed he better not be gay. Must be some way to fix it. Use the rod, beat the gay out of the child.

“He can, if normal, rise above the frustrations of childhood and stand on his own feet.”

If normal? And what happens to the abnormal? What is abnormal? I thought we are all made in the image of God? Does God make abnormal people now? Make up your mind!

“A man may rationalize and excuse himself till the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty. But temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted.”

Except unlike almost all other sins resistance doesn’t weaken the temptation. Why not?

 

 

Excuse me while I pour bleach into my eyes after reading those words that got burned into my brain young again.

Oh, and if you want more fun it also includes the fun teaching about how dying is preferable to losing your virtue.

To be clear I am not suggesting that this is somehow uniquely horrible. This was common stuff in the literature of the day in dealing with the gay menace. None of this sounds like revelation. He was just parroting the common secular talk of the day and pasting some scriptures on top of it. If I might coin a completely original metaphor it could be said he was mingling the philosophies of men with scripture.

 

I personally know a gay guy, who I had a crush on in 7th grade, his older brother who was called "Rocky" because he was tough, supposedly, would beat the snot out of his younger brother who was the epitome of gay, in manner, speech etc. He was on the cheerleading team but that doesn't signify being gay I know. But I wonder how many young gay men were beaten by fathers (or brothers, neighbors etc) and those fathers feeling deep down it was their fault. I think God was maybe directly or indirectly open to having his children with differences, and it's up to His children, to love unconditionally. Of course except for those that would hurt another because of their sexuality, those people deserve judgement. And not just hurting physically but mentally. Nehor, hugs to you for whatever you're having to go through too.